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Old 09-20-2014, 01:30 PM
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Welcome to my Skunkworks, dungeon of doom, or horribly wasted space, depending on your point of view.

How to coat bullets.

Some folks look at all the entry level methods and see a monumental pain in the backside.
Keep in mind, those are ENTRY level methods and ARE a pain by nature. "Shake and bake" and the "Piglet method" will get you an honest test drive to see what powder coating can do for you, or in the case of the piglet method, fix a box of undersized mistakes if you do not cast.
After the test drive, it's time to get serious.

Venom Exhibit 1.
The plates.
this is a young science, without much support. you will have to fabricate a few solutions.
Think, plot and plan ahead, and you can have some decent fixtures that are a joy to work with.

This is one such plate, designed for hollow points.
its just nails welded into a piece of 16 Ga steel.
Lay it out and drill it properly and it'll serve you well.
Make up a few and use em in rotation for large runs.
A few hours in the beginning is the foundation of all future production.

Exhibit 2
200 grain HP's after 7 minutes of loading and spraying.

You want to spray from all 4 sides to get an even coat.
I hook the ground to a cookie sheet and place the plates on this. While one set is baking i'm working on the next set.
at worst, there is a 5 minute delay between sets if I have to negotiate with cords and hoses or reload the electrostatic gun.

after the Bake they are left to cool before I flip the plate into a bin and keep on truckin'

Thereafter they are sized, with only load pack and fire procedures remaining.


In recent testing, these two coatings floated to the top of the heap.
there are many colors, types and grades of powder.
Too many for any one man to test, and no, they are not created equal.
these two are teflon slip black and all powder paints Arctic Cat Green.
TSB gives a little extra velocity without penalty. it's also demonstrated the best accuracy across several 45's in which it was tested.
ACG seems the best for solving problem guns that pitch fits with cast lead. Also in decent lighting, its something of a safe and legal tracer if your observant enough to catch a glimpse of the streak.
A few notes about TSB.
This stuff makes an excelent release layer.
once cured, nothing sticks to it, including subsequent coats of itself. It must be applied via a proper electrostatic method. shake and bake test drives do not play well with it for this reason.
Also, it's not legal in all states as a bullet coating.
This issue is a whole debate unto itself.
Since I can use it properly, and legally, I love this stuff like a fat kid loves cake.
Ultimately, it's accuracy equal should be found in order to avoid the legal issues.

In recent testing, I've piggybacked an experiment on top of 45 auto testing.
I used Teflon Slip black in the gun to see how it would work as at least a semi permanent gun lube.
It does work, and can allow you to run an auto essentially dry of oil or grease.
It is not exactly easy to do.
it's fairly time consuming as the slide must be refit to the frame after treatment.
once done, the gun can be run nearly too tight to function.
My accuracy and performance improved dramatically for this effort.
I stripped the gun of all TSB to redo it, both to do a better job of it, and demonstrate some of the procedure.

after a serious cleaning, stripping and re cleaning, I scuffed the bearing surfaces to help adhesion before another cleaning in lacquer thinner.



after this prep work, I set up the frame and slide in the spray area using a failed mold to prop up the frame.


spraying is the easy part. lay the stuff where you need it and then use a few artists brushes to dust off the areas where you know you won't want it.
take your time with this part. Now is the easiest time to remove unwanted powder.


bake them off per instructions for TSB 400 degrees for 15 minutes then let cool.
the rest of the work is refitting the slide to the frame.
you can scrape or sand with 400 grit or finer. and yeah, this is a time vampire of a project.
I also did this to the barrel, bushing, and guide rod.
the action moves like liquid with no additional lubricant at all.

The initial test treatment ran over 2K rounds and seemed to have another 4K left to go, despite a few spots where the coating flaked due to inadequate surface prep.
it might be worth trying if you have the patience to do it
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Old 09-20-2014, 01:43 PM
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Thanks! I love how-to's, even when I am not certain I will want to do the project. This one was very educational.
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:28 PM
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Default Thanks,

This is the first info I've see 'published' on such methods. I think coatings are going to figure in heavily in the near future.
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:47 PM
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I saw the relative lack of info too.
While my treatment of the subject could stand some edit and revision, it's clearly ahead of the blank page.
There's ample thoughts and ideas to draw from out there. But you need a foot hold before most of it makes sense.
I do hope I provided that foot hold.
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Old 09-20-2014, 09:23 PM
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Default TSB

Inquiring minds want to know! where can I find Teflon S black? Every time I run a search I get teflon satin black powder which I dont think is what I want. Thanks Chief
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Old 09-20-2014, 10:38 PM
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Inquiring minds want to know! where can I find Teflon S black? Every time I run a search I get teflon satin black powder which I dont think is what I want. Thanks Chief
I don't see why the satin black wouldn't work, but all powder paints has it inttheir specialty coatings.
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Old 09-20-2014, 10:55 PM
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Sweet.
I see the bullseye shooting crowd seem to be resistant to accepting powder coating boolits.
Good thing I'm an amateur. I'm open minded about it.
I tried shake n bake with gloss black and safety orange, both from Summit Racing.
The wet black works very well. Not so, the orange.

Summit carries the same powder coating gun Sears used to sell.
I may get one to go along with my Horrible Freight setup.
I like the idea of not having to fire up the compressor and adjust the regulator.

I'm looking at getting a DEWC mold for my M52, for when I can't find HBWCs. Like, now.
I will powder coat the DEWCs and see how they work in the 52.

I'm thinking about trying powder coating some boolits for my muzzleloaders. Don't know how well it will work.

I'll probably get some of the TSB, for when I run out of the black, orange, red, and yellow.

Powder coating is exactly what I need to be able to run my home swaged .44 and .45 boolits to Ruger-only velocities.

PC has also rekindled my interest in making my own boolit molds, since I no longer have to worry about designing cherries and form tools with lube grooves. It makes the cherry design a LOT simpler.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:16 PM
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Yeah, shake and bake tends to impose limits on what powders you can use.
It also imposes some handling issues.
If you think ahead and design your fixtures well, you won't have to touch the bullets till they are ready for sizing.
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:35 PM
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Thank you for posting your methodology, we need more stuff like this so we can replicate and characterize these powder coated bullets.

It is not something I have tried and I'm not very familiar with the process although I have heard about powder coating. This may be showing my ignorance but I am curious: does the coating come off in the barrel similarly to how lead can 'lead' a barrel?
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Old 09-20-2014, 11:56 PM
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Thank you for posting your methodology, we need more stuff like this so we can replicate and characterize these powder coated bullets.

It is not something I have tried and I'm not very familiar with the process although I have heard about powder coating. This may be showing my ignorance but I am curious: does the coating come off in the barrel similarly to how lead can 'lead' a barrel?
It can transfer on occasion. The result is a black streak that cleans out easily.
I wouldn't categorize this as a coating failure,but rather a glitch.
I've only seen this happen on 3 occasions.
A failure shows up as slight leading at the edge of the rifling, and has only happened at speeds pistols will never reach.
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Old 09-23-2014, 10:30 PM
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Hey venom... nice looking plates ya got there.
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Old 09-23-2014, 10:55 PM
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Hey venom... nice looking plates ya got there.
Just a function of taking a little extra time for something I'll have to live with.
Built the amp in the zombie green 45 pic too.
Come to think of it, I build a lot of odd stuff
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:14 AM
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Default More information, More Problems

Powder, primers, and 22 LR were not the only items I stocked up on after the first Big 0 election. I have a quart of liquid Alox, big tube of red Lucas grease, a 2# loaf of pure beeswax, and a 3# coffee can filled with home made bullet lube.

The S&W Forum is expensive, but the Cast Boolit Forum makes you buy stuff to make "better bullet lube" and if it isn't better than it is certainly cheaper with more of it.

I can't imagine trying to sell all this stuff (plus wrapping & shipping) just because powder coated bullets work better.

I know I'm going to follow the S&W Forum Anti-Thesis: Shoot the guns you now own more instead of buying more guns, or in my situation use the bullet lube you have instead of buying more stuff for a different process!

And there is that huge life threating obstacle of baking bullets in Mama's brand new electric stove.
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Old 09-24-2014, 12:25 PM
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Powder, primers, and 22 LR were not the only items I stocked up on after the first Big 0 election. I have a quart of liquid Alox, big tube of red Lucas grease, a 2# loaf of pure beeswax, and a 3# coffee can filled with home made bullet lube.

The S&W Forum is expensive, but the Cast Boolit Forum makes you buy stuff to make "better bullet lube" and if it isn't better than it is certainly cheaper with more of it.

I can't imagine trying to sell all this stuff (plus wrapping & shipping) just because powder coated bullets work better.

I know I'm going to follow the S&W Forum Anti-Thesis: Shoot the guns you now own more instead of buying more guns, or in my situation use the bullet lube you have instead of buying more stuff for a different process!

And there is that huge life threating obstacle of baking bullets in Mama's brand new electric stove.
Thats a way of looking at it.
Thing is, I too have a large stock of home brewed lube, and about 2 thirds of my ammo is still of the old school.
I caught wind of PC only after I got just about everything loaded
The joke's on me too.
Thing is, we are the reloading experts around here.
When a noob has questions, we are on the job, giving advice and guiding them through.

We cannot, really maintain the title of expert if we don't stay current.
As the coatings grow in the market, questions pertaining to them will follow suit, and we'll need answers.
there isn't a real book on the subject. just massive volumes of internet posts that we have to sort through.
there after its up to us to confirm or debunk some of the claims, so that we can give the most accurate, and informed answers we can muster.
This is an astonishing advancement in cast.
some of what this stuff does is magic of sorts.
Something must explain it, and it's up to us to find those explanations, as best as we can
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Old 09-24-2014, 12:39 PM
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Just a function of taking a little extra time for something I'll have to live with.
Built the amp in the zombie green 45 pic too.
Come to think of it, I build a lot of odd stuff
Necessity, (shallow pockets), is the mother of invention.

I'm definitely gonna pickup some of that TSB & zombie green.
I'm liking the green much more than the HB red as far as aesthetics.
It also looks like it makes a very nice even coat.

I forgot to ask before. Do you size before, after or both?

I'm asking because my 7.62x39's are dropping at .314. sizing to .311 after coating "might" not leave much if any coating on there? Won't know for sure till I try, but thought I'd ask as that seems a bit much to shave off compared to my 9's.

Once I get a few more details worked out, I will probably size before and not after.

Food for thought:
Caves are cheaper than houses. Houses work better

One of the main points that was not mentioned here yet.
With PC you can push cast to "J" speeds. In pistols this is super easy. Just use the load data from whatever book you normally use.

Now on to rifles, doable, but more variables come into play, such as lead hardness. Which is not that big a deal for "most" pistol calibers/loads. But very important for the rifle experiment.

PS
I don't use "my" oven in the kitchen. For shake n' bake methods a toaster oven would be/is the wise choice.

For now though, all I will say is I'm working on a method that does not require all the handling, the very nice plates Venom made, nor even a toaster oven.

For now though, it's a secret
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:30 PM
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The TSB does "look the part" but there are a few things you need to know about it.
Its a thermal cure powder, not so much a thermal set.
it needs a proper bake

TSB acts as a release agent. You must nail the coating the first time, or it'll be prone to shedding subsequent coats.
If you coat a hot surface, you can achieve a heavy coat, and even form plates with it, but it will still need a proper post bake.

TSB is not legal for use on bullets in all states, Check yourself, before you wreck yourself.

these things taken in stride, it is one of the best powders to have on hand for other applications such as permalube in machinery.
Today Ill be trying this in one of my sizing dies.

I size after coating.
the end result is compression, without shaving.
if it shaves, 1000 grit sandpaper and polishing compounds are your friends.

Rifle work gets really interesting.
This is probably the darkest territory we'll need to shed some light on.
It answers somewhere in between cast and jacketed data, but more to cast's data set.
With a good high quality powder coat, and harder alloys, I've achieved 2700 FPS before the coating failed on a plain base bullet. This is up from previous 2500 FPS, using wheel weight grade lead and Harbor Fright powders.
In either case, accuracy fell apart. I was looking for the limits of the coat more than a useful load.
Harder alloys still, have a good chance of making heavy FMJ equivalents such as one might use for dangerous game.
For the most part, it results in enhanced cast rifle loads with a reduction in necessary voodoo to make them work.

Rifle loading, is where I started with PC.
I knew I'd find the limits in an 06.
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:39 PM
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Thanks for the info VB.
So you're saying the 25 - 2700fps was with an 06?

After I get the HB red / La Machine working to my satisfaction, I'll give those other powders a go

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Old 09-24-2014, 05:04 PM
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Thanks for the info VB.
So you're saying the 25 - 2700fps was with an 06?

After I get the HB red / La Machine working to my satisfaction, I'll give those other powders a go
yep. I jumped in with a go big or go home mindset because chatter on the subject was fairly lean on defining it's limitations and it's treatment was in the form of overly cautious baby steps.
Thus the first tests were in a 30-06 rifle using a range of cast and jacketed data to see where it's back would break, and how it's back would break.
I can't be the only one aware of these boundaries .. but Ill gladly talk about these fail points.
We all need to know about them if we want to get serious with this stuff.

The 2700 load's used something close to hardball alloy, and both TSB and Arctic Cat Green on a modified Lee 200G RN (GC and lower groove removed)
Between the alloy and the higher quality powders, I finessed an extra 200 FPS out of it.
These are max load figures for this weight ... I figure a little harder alloy and it'll have both speed and accuracy somewhere between the 25 and 2700 mark.
But then ... 200 grains above 2K is no joke, and represents a good field worthy load.
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:24 PM
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That's outstanding results
06 would have been my next foray into PC rifle boolits.

My .311 sizer showed up today. Pushed some PC'd boolits through it that measured .315
Came out the other end @ .311 with no noticeable affect to the coating

Sooooo, I'll be sizing "after" PC from now on.
I haven't as of yet removed the GC from the mold.
I'm betting that it's a must to push speed at or above 2K fps.

How much weight did removing the GC & lube ring add to the 200gn 06? 210, 215?
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:35 PM
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Not a whole lot of weight was added. They drop at 203g
with or without the gc band removed, you can get the velocity. Accuracy ... not so much. As the burn rates slow and the exit pressure grows, that is when the mold mods show their worth.
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