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Old 09-22-2014, 06:56 PM
Johnnn01 Johnnn01 is offline
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alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info????  
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Default alliant info not matching Lyman info????

Ordered some Bullseye for a 40S&W and looked it up on alliantpowder,,,
For a 165gr. Alliant states 5.8gr and 1,022fps
Lyman states max load 5.4gr and 825fps

Is not the difference sort of large, who is correct ?
and 825fps seems sort of slow for a 165gr will the gun cycle?
This is all new to me have yet to load a round.
Anny help greatly appreciated.

Last edited by Johnnn01; 09-22-2014 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 09-22-2014, 06:59 PM
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Not uncommon at all for diff sources to have diff data. IMO, Lyman 40 data is off, by quite a bit. Probably lawyer proofing, lots of 40 KB stories.
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Old 09-22-2014, 07:15 PM
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Something else to keep in mind, not all different brand bullets of the same type and weight will necessarily utilize the same level of powder charge.

My advice: seek out reliable info for the exact brand, type, and weight bullet you intend to use.
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Old 09-22-2014, 07:58 PM
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Check what gun, or barrel length is used. Some use a test barrel , not a pistol barrel. And as Ride-Red said, make sure the bullet is the same as you plan on using. Cast? Coated? FMJ? etc. Work your way up slowly. Make sure you see a hole in the target every time for the slowest rounds.
Be Safe. Enjoy the process, not just the final product.
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:04 PM
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I use 165 Raineer bullets, 5.3 grains of Bullseye, with a Winchester small pistol primer, they shoot great.
Been using this load for a long time with no problems.
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:38 PM
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Default This is bound to happen......

This is bound to happen for reasons stated above, but it STILL bothers me when one book is a full grain higher than another one.
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This is bound to happen for reasons stated above, but it STILL bothers me when one book is a full grain higher than another one.
You don't want to look at the data for H110 in 357 Magnum, if you look at enough different sources you can find a 3 grain range between the maximum charge level.

Generally I try and find an "area" where 2 or 3 different sources overlap and start at the low end of that range. Then it's a matter of being observant for excess pressure indicators and how well the ammunition functions in a semi auto. I also test for Position Sensitivity with Revolver calibers because I learned that lesson the hard way, long deep cases can create Position Sensitivity issues with some powders. Once I find a point where function and pressure indicators are all green I'll then start testing for accuracy and try and tune the load for the best balance between Accuracy, Function, and Economy. BTW, that means that if a 5.4 grain load produces the same accuracy as a 5.7 grain load and both function well my choice will be the 5.4 grain load. Yeah, 0.3 grains isn't a lot but over 2 or 3 thousand loads it does add up.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:29 AM
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With a lot of my data and manuals..........
Alliant is usually lighter and safer than the other data out there.

Nosler can also be on the light side..............

Just depends on what manual you pick up and read first, I guess.
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Old 09-23-2014, 11:46 AM
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With auto rounds, sometimes the big difference in max charges and velocities can be attributed to COL and bullet profile.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:12 PM
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Be sure to check the bullet you are comparing the loads to. There will be some differences between jacketed, swagged lead , plated and cast bullets. And the profiles, more differences with full wadcutter, semi- wadcutter, round nose and truncated cone. This is all important when comparing loads.
Tell us what bullet you are seeking data for. We only know it is 165 grains....tell us the rest of the story and we can help.
Gary
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Old 09-23-2014, 02:34 PM
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alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info????  
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New reloader, huh? Hardly any two resources will agree as they use different test barrels, guns, etc. to develop their data. And the chances of duplicating the data as printed is slim also.
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Old 09-23-2014, 03:01 PM
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Reloading manuals and the data from powder manufacturers web sites are the result of using the specific bullet listed, the specific powder mentioned, with the primer stated, in the test fixture stated (gun or universal receiver) on a particular day by the tech. in the company's lab. Reloading data supplied to today's reloaders in not exact formula, it is just results of someone's testing.

Differences from manual to manual occur because of different lots of components; powder lots change, primers may vary by lot, and even slight differences in the alloys of cases and bullets can have an effect on results. Not every lab uses the exact same components. Way too much fretting about "conflicting information" from manual to manual. Even if every manual had exact same data, the results of loads in your gun will more than likely be way different...

Last edited by mikld; 09-23-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-23-2014, 03:32 PM
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alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info???? alliant info not matching Lyman info????  
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As Buck eluded to look carefully at the OAL differences, some are stupid short.
Alliant is owned by the same parent company (ATK?) as Speer so the data they provide is with Speer bullets, your not gonna find GoldDot data in a Hornady manual either.
Lyman lists the bullets used for their data on the caliber description page.
I would contact the bullet maker for advice.
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Old 09-23-2014, 07:31 PM
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Bullet seating depth, type and brand of primer, how heavy a crimp, make of bullet, are just some of the reasons there would be differences in the loads. That's one of the reasons all re-loaders need a chronograph to test their loads.
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Old 09-23-2014, 07:57 PM
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I was just looking at a chronograph or two sort of on the cheaper side
Browsing CHRONY

and this one

Browsing CALDWELL

think they work????
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Old 09-23-2014, 08:27 PM
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I think the reasons above describe this phenomenon: different experimental techniques, environmental parameters and legal concerns.

However, it does make me think that I need to do the following experiment. I have PDFs of most of the major reloading manuals and it would be interesting to parse these into a common data format, calculate for each catridge, powder and bullet the mean max and min charge across all manuals with a standard deviation and therefore create a cross-validated manual. Might be difficult given that bullets vary the most from manual to manual, but if I had all the bullets I could use k-means clustering to cluster the bullets into classes for this analysis.

Additionally, in principle using something like simulated annealing it should be possible to estimate a max and min for a bullet, powder, cartridge combination not in the manual. Also, it would be interesting to quantify the changes in manuals over time and use it to predict the values that will be in the next edition of the manual since I could use regression to calculate the trend in manuals over time.

Yes, this is dork level infinite but my machine learning class gets me thinking...
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Old 09-23-2014, 11:00 PM
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Powder varies from lot to lot, guns vary from one to the next, load data is only published as a reference. It is not absolute data.

If you use a chronograph, rarely will loads match any published data exactly. Start low to mid-range and work up from there.

Trust the chronograph and high pressure signs much more than the published data. COAL, brass, primers and individual lots of powder add a number of variables to the equation

No worries-Elmer Keith never shot his eye out because it was not written in a book.

I assure you more load development is done by competition shooters than most powder companies.

There are lots of bullet manufacturers selling lots of product with no published load data. Hmmmmm
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Old 09-24-2014, 12:05 AM
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Default Optimistic Reloading Data

Hornaday reloading data will provide you with "optimum performance" ammunition, at least in the calibers I've reloaded using their data. They don't believe in 'cream puff' data.

Use a firm grip, you will enjoy the ride!
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellD View Post
Powder varies from lot to lot, guns vary from one to the next, load data is only published as a reference. It is not absolute data.

If you use a chronograph, rarely will loads match any published data exactly. Start low to mid-range and work up from there.

Trust the chronograph and high pressure signs much more than the published data. COAL, brass, primers and individual lots of powder add a number of variables to the equation

No worries-Elmer Keith never shot his eye out because it was not written in a book.
I assure you more load development is done by competition shooters than most powder companies.

There are lots of bullet manufacturers selling lots of product with no published load data. Hmmmmm
I have the utmost respect for EK but he DID grenade a "couple" or ten revolvers in his day.
Not for the faint of heart, or the public shooting range.
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Old 09-24-2014, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnn01 View Post
I was just looking at a chronograph or two sort of on the cheaper side
Browsing CHRONY

and this one

Browsing CALDWELL

think they work????
If you want a cheap chronograph that works forget the Chrony. Competition Electronics Pro Digital for about $100.
It works.
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:18 AM
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I flip though all my manuals when loading for a cartridge. Then decide where to start and how far I want to go. I have found un reachable limits in a couple cartridges. I know what the max is and if I think I can go more because velocity or other signs, I do it. There are times I stop before getting to max for pressure signs or accuracy is best.

I have had a couple incidents that I am not proud of, but were true mistakes. Nothing that hurt me.

USE YOUR HEAD.

I think a crony of some kind is great.
I also think the better the understanding of reloading, the better off you will be.

A grain or two difference can mean a lot or a little depending on what you are loading for and your components.

Take your time, be careful.

David
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