Hello everyone.
I am confused as to whether there is a difference between H-4227 and IMR 4227. I see some load tables the actually show BOTH POWDER DESIGNATIONS.(??????)
I have seen forum posts that say they are the same powder and I have seen posts that say they are different.

I have seen posts where members have called the factory and they said the powders are the same.
Does ANYONE REALLY KNOW?????

Does anyone here have any information that they might be able to share to help clear up the confusion?

My specific issue is with reloading a 500 S&W magnum.

Any help???

Mike

First off..............

where was your can of powder made ?
That is a start.

Canada.... just like all the cans I bought in the last few weeks.

But, what does that have to do with the loading tables?

This confussion and debate has gone on for years. They never wer the same powder. A look at Hodgdons powder line up shows that they no longer have it in their product line, Many (most) of Hodgdons powders are made in Australia (ADI) IMR was a military powder made by Dupont. They are indeed similar but not exactly the same, You said you bottle is from Canada is that a IMR product??

H4227 is the same as Austrailias AR2205 but Hodgdon is no longer labeling it for whatever reason.

If you so some snooping and searching you will find all kinds of info on this,

Use the data for the specic one you have H or I.

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Still Running Against the Wind

H4227 and IMR4227 used to be slightly different interpretations from two plants.
Since Hodgdon acquired IMR, this powder got swapped around a bit.

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it just needs more voltage

Odd. I just checked my powder and found it was produced in Australia, Sweden, the US, and Canada. I was unaware that all powder manufacturing had been moved to Canada.

They are not the same. Several powder deisgnations have this problem; 4350, 4831, 4895, you do need to follow the load data as it is given, no substitutions. There, now no confusion.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

This will soon become a moot point as Hodgdon is no longer marketing the H version, only the IMR one.
For whatever reason people were buying mostly the IMR and it was no longer profitable to sell H4227.
FWIW the latest IMR 4227 I have obtained is made in Australia, putting the kibosh on the idea that all IMR comes from Canada.
I use the IMR data and due diligence in dropping back and working up loads.

===
Nemo

Chris Hodgdon said in a video someone posted on the forum here that IMR 4895 and H4895 were similar powders, but were produced at different factories and cannot be treated the same.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Just a wee bit of history that may help some folks with the Hogdon/IMR stuff.

IMR was a development and product of Dupont. Exactly where it was made/is made may differ, but IMR XXXX cannister (consumer grade powder) will be the same regardless of where it was made.

Hogdon got their start repackaging surplus military powders after WWII. Their first product was 4831 [Which was produced by Dupont for the military under exlusive contract. Original load data for 4831 didn't specify a maker because it was only available from Hogdon. When Dupont decided there was a market for it, they reformulated it slightly and IMR 4831 was born.]. Hogdon later obtained other surplus powders of various types, labeled it as Hogdon whatever and sold that, frequently with load data generated by Hogdon.

When they got more successful, Hogdon imported other powders and/or had powders made to match their specifications.

Note: one of the primary reasons Hogdon and IMR powders of the same/similar type (IMR4198/H4198 or IMR4227/H4227) have different load data is that the original Hogdon powders were not the cannister grade powders with consistent burn rates that IMR sells on the consumer market. [Non cannister powders (like Federal, Remington and Winchester load with) must have each batch tested for burn rate and load data changed to match.] Hogdon blended the available batches of non cannister powders to reach a specific burn rate (created a cannister grade powder) which was similar but different from the original Dupont products.

10-4... the powders are different.
SO, the H-4227 data that is in the 500 S&W mag load table I have is useless since no H-4227 can be found.

I just wanted to see some up-to-date conversation about the 2 powders since all the threads I read on the topic were from 2011 and older.

Thanks everyone!!

No! Current IMR4227 is the same as the H4227 of recent years, as long as the load data is for H4227 that was manufactured in Australia. Find out the year that your load data was published, and if Hodgdon was getting their H4227 from ADI in Australia that year, you are GTG.

Don

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

are you sure?
mine are very recent production and Canadian

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it just needs more voltage

I'm sure
Last 2 1# cans off the shelf at Recob's; made in Australia.
I got an 8# jug off the shelf at Recob's last spring. Made in Australia.
I didn't say All IMR 4227 was made in Australia just that the last ones I got were.
I can't find any manufacturing date on the cans.

Now that Hodgdon is selling all these, it would sure make things easier if they would just market one version of each.
I suspect they are headed in this direction.
Eventually they will all be "extreme" versions as well (polishing up the crystal powder measure).

===
Nemo

If you look at the load tables that have both H4227 and IMR 4227 you'll notice the difference in loads are +/- a few tenths of a gn worse case (max load). They may, or may not, be different powders but I seriously doubt you'd have any problems substituting one load data for the other as long as you're not starting at the max.

My 1975 Hornady reloading manual only has 4227 (not H or IMR). The max load for a 240 gn JHP is 23.0 gn of 4227 for 1200 fps. My 2010 Hornady manual lists 23.0 gns of IMR 4227 and 23.3 gn of H4227 for 1300 fps. Interestingly the max loads are now 23.7 and 24.1 for 1350 fps. And people think new manuals are loaded down for the lawyers.

I used to use IMR 4895, same thing for rifles. When both powders where listed the loads were almost identical.

My last order of IMR 4227 was manufactured in Australia....
Packaged in USA...........Shawnee Mission, Kansas.

Product questions c/o 913-362-9455

It's actually true IMR4227 was made in Canada.
I contacted Hodgdon and asked them about H4227 being discontinued and this is what I got.

Hodgdon discontinued IMR4227 made in Canada. They continue to buy H4227 from ADI but have renamed the old H4227 and now call it IMR4227. That was done because like said above, the IMR version was showing very good sales but H4227 wasn't. So, the real IMR4227 is gone and the old H4227 is now called IMR4227.

Please don't argue about this, just contact Hodgdon and ask them like I did.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

More confusion & different answers from Hodgdon still. This just seems to get worse. This is what I previously posted:

. . .

Well in my opinion, I think Hodgdon has created a confused mess with these.

I thought I'd use 4227 as my "burn-thru" powder in the cavernous 460 Mag I just started reloading for. It's slow, but not too slow, pretty plentiful & not too over-priced around here. The only one of the two powders available in several shops around here though is IMR4227, which didn't matter one way or the other to me.

Hodgdon's Online Reloading Data Center website has:

- almost exclusively has data for H4227 on it for (15) big-bore pistol cartridges, 460Mag included.

- IMR4227 is only listed for (3) big-bore pistol cartridges: 44Mag, 45Colt/Ruger only, & 480Ruger.

- IMR4227 & H4227 are both listed for the 45Colt/Ruger, but not together for the same bullet, each by themself with different bullets/types.

- No pistol cartridge lists both together with the same bullet/type.

- Both powders are listed together with the same bullet only for the 357Mag (125gr & 158gr HDY XTP) & 44Mag (240gr Nos JHP -see link below- ) in the rifle section & both powders have the same exact reloading data/specs: bullet type/grs./fps/psi/COL.
.

I've read all the talk about which one's still made, & if they're made in Australia they're the same no matter which label is on it, etc...
The (3) bottles I've bought were all made in 2014 in Canada.

I decided to see what Hodgdon had to say about this & sent them an email asking if they're the same now & I only find IMR4227 available currently. This is the complete response: "They are not exactly the same but you can use the same loading data using the starting load and working your way up watching for pressure signs. Mike"

I think it's commonly stated that pistol over-pressure signs aren't always obvious. (One low pressure cartridge it's listed for is the 38 Spcl.) I've seen where other people say Hodgdon told them they're the exact same. Either they are the same powder or they aren't. Hodgdon should be able to make this prefectly clear. It's not clear to me, though their select reloading data seems to say they are exactly the same, but if they are not the same exact powder they should publish data for each. Most reloading manuals list each powder separately & with different data, if they're together, though it's largely dated material. Hodgdon can give us current data now on-line & post in their remarks section, like they did for H110 & W296, if they are the same, once & for all to clear this up. I wish they'd do better.

IMR4227-H4227 data

.

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Waiting for the break of day

OK.....

So, the new powders are the same..... right?

The old powders are different.
Maybe this is why the tables show both. I bought the latest Lee manual about 3 years ago and it does show both. I guess they can't drop one or the other from the tables until enough time has passed for the old powders to be used up or disposed of.

Good info guys!!

That could be a very long time. Powder has an indefinite life and surplus WWII powders were available for decades.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

This is similar to the reply I got from Hodgdon also.

If you go to Hodgdon's online reloading website and look under .357 mag and .44 mag rifle loads, you will see that they list the exact same powder charge for both H4227 and IMR4227 in recipes with similar bullets and those charges produce the exact same pressures and velocities.

What does that tell you?

I stated this already too. But why do they tell some people one thing & others the opposite? Why doesn't the web site come out publicly & state their position? There's where the problem lies. They could do more to clear this up.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

They could, but that would mean everyone would be sure footed with it and we wouldn't be able to find it either.

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it just needs more voltage