I was asked by a friend a couple of weeks ago to cast some 45 Colt SWCs for him; he was going to load about a thousand rounds for a man he had a deal with. So I broke out the Lyman 454424 and started casting.

I got the first 500 cast and then wondered if anyone was actually selling that exact projectile on the 'net, and if so, what were they asking for the bullets. I found out that Montana Bullets offers that exact projectile, sized to either .454" or .452" with a Brinell hardness number of 15, which apparently corresponds to 92-6-2 commercial alloy, the same stuff I used.

I almost broke my jaw when I saw Montana Bullets' asking price: $118 and change for 500, and that doesn't include shipping!

Does anybody really pay that for 500 hard cast projectiles? I can cast a bullet, and am thinking that if that is actually the case, I need to get a tax stamp, buy some alloy and go into business.

What say ye? Is that number realistic?

I'm not familiar with .45 LC, but here are some prices from a local shop.

.45LC 255gr SWC

.45LC 300gr FP

I suspect if you look hard enough you can find someone selling just about any item for two to three times the prices someone else offers on the same item.
Not sure how close these are 45 but I have purchased a number of plated projectiles from them and like the prices and product. Not sure if switching to unplated is worth saving a penny or so per round. I think I would get into casting my own and maybe even powder coating but so long as the price for plated is good I will stick with that.

You can get away with it with the right timing.
118 might look like a good deal when the whole market is bone dry.
But you'll be known as a snake there after.
Right now, the market is well saturated with cast after everyone with a mold essentially covered the shortages.
Unless you have something really special to offer, you will be sitting on your stock for a while.

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it just needs more voltage

Of course you can do it yourself a lot cheaper. Just plan 10 to 12 hours a day and figure out how many bullets you need to sell each and every month to support your family. Oh, and don't forget all the extra equipment you will need to produce all those bullets and at least one employee. Then you can decide if you want to be lowest price around. Also, just looked at that website, it is up for sale because he had back surgery so make sure you have really good health insurance. Toting that lead around takes its toll. All that said, yes, his prices do seem a bit high but you couldn't pay me enough to do that job.

Sure they do, why the price is so high. Is it realistic, sure for a guy running a business, buying alloy, paying taxes, etc. Why I cast my own for every handgun caliber I shoot. The price of a good mold is often less than 1000 bullets.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

That's about three times what I pay for cast .357 and 9mm. I know the .45s are big and expensive, but that is exorbitant.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Most of the reasonably priced cast bullets on the market come from
the Magma casting machines and are all pretty much the same design.
For those shooters who think there is something better about other
designs like the original Keith or Lyman bullets there are companies
that will provide them...at a price. You pays yer money and takes yer
choice.

Cast and lube a 1,000 bullets of any caliber and tell us what you think your labor is worth.

A year ago, I mined a couple of buckets of bullets from the outside range berm. After about 30+ hours of labor, I had 5,800 loaded cast bullet target rounds of 45 ACP. If I wanted to sell any of that ammo, I would not worry about being the lowest price seller.

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S&WHF 366

Another way to look at it is they just have to keep the price competitive with plated, and lower than jacketed--how much would 500 jacketed 45 colt bullets cost?

There in business to make money, hopefully not CTD money, but to make money none the less. If you are like any good lead scrounger, you got your lead forcas cheap as you could buy it. After all you are a caster and reloader, so your in the hobby to save money. Now think ofvwhat your projectiles would cost if you paid what #2 alloy is going for, probably a lot higher. Just some things to think about.

Bayou bullets charges $116 for 1,000 coated, 250 grain RNFP for the .45 LC. If you buy a case the price comes down and shipping is free. That's a good bench mark.

However comparing the cost of a commercial caster to a one man outfit does not tell the whole story of sourcing components, labor and the end product.

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The American dream is alive

Well, I wouldn't!

I'm not familiar with your mold, but this outfit in NC sells 250gr LRNFP sized to .454 for $52 for 500. Shipped!

I've ordered other calibers from them and have been very satisfied.

Lou

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NRA Certified Instructor & RSO

...sounds to me like the going price for 1000 including shipping. I'd look elsewhere if it was me.

Pretty apparent you have never operated a business.
You can't operate it using used wheel weights, range scrap etc. Each bullet has to be the same hardness as all the others. Then there is packaging, distribution, etc.
I had a friend several years ago who came up with a fishing lure he thought was exceptional. He had his wife and children, casting, assembling, painting, packaging, etc. He took it to a local sporting goods distributor who liked it and said "I would take an initial order of 144 gross". My friend like to fell out of his chair! He said he could sell him 1K every two weeks. The distributor said that wouldn't give him one lure for each of the stores he sold to!!!
Lots of phases to manufacturing. And you have to do all of them.

To be fair to the guys at Montana Bullets I'd bet the designs you looked at were true Keith style SWC's. Most of the "Keith style" bullets out there sold by commercial casters....really are NOT true to the original design. Most automated casting machines need a bevel base, not the true FLAT base to easily drop the bullet from the mold. WHY so many commercial designs are bevel based.

They probably hand cast those slugs.

I think your comparison is a bit of an "apples/oranges" affair.

I cast several Keith style bullets as well as the old H&G #68 200 gr target bullet for .45 acp. My finished slugs are consistent, all the bases are flat, lube grooves filled with good lube, etc.

If I had to charge to replace the alloy, the lube and even $10 per hour for my time....I'd have to charge pretty close to what they do.

Checked the price of good alloy lately?

FN in MT

I use extreme for all my calibers prices reasonable just ordered 500 9mm 115gr copper for 37.00 they only charge 5.00 shipping
And they look good too

There's a lot of lore with some hardcast bullets. To the unknowing, the word "keith" is magical, and they'll pay extra for it. There's a religious following with cast bullets in general, and just like the iPhone - branding sells better than functionality.

A lot of good points here, so I will follow up just a bit:

Commercial alloy is still only about $2/lb. 500 of the Lyman 454424 would use up 17-18# of alloy. At no markup, that is only $36. Lube runs about $2/stick, and one stick will lube the 500 bullets, so we are up to $38 for costs. (I am assuming the mould and sizer were paid for long ago...)

Yes, the Lyman has to be hand cast, as that mould is long out of production I believe, and I sincerely doubt Montana bought eight of them and had them modified to fit Magma machines. THAT is probably where the majority of the cost comes from.

As for my time, it is really pretty cheap... I have eight and ten cavity H&G moulds, and can cast and lube 500 of most projectiles in about an hour and a half (I also have a Star sizer...). IF I were willing to charge that much (and I am not...), it would be pretty good profit for an hour and a half. But I will admit that even with the four cavity 454424 it would take considerably longer than that; maybe three hours.

I have sold a whole lot of bullets over the years when I was between jobs, and sold them for what nowadays looks to be a pittance. (500 158 SWCs for $20, and all of them hand cast, hand sorted and hand sized...) I figured out long ago that Lyman #2 alloy was a horrible waste of tin. I won't use it. I found out that seven lbs of wheelweights to a lb of lino is just about right, and it is not nearly as expensive. Of course, now ww are just about gone, so I don't know where we will end up.

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I just thought this was pretty exorbitant pricing, and for the most part, you fellows are in agreement.

Comparing 9s & 45 is like comparing apples & oranges. Bigger bullets cost more, no way around that. Custom cast cost more than machine cast, is what it is. Why so many of us do our own. I can have any bullet I want for the cost of a custom mold like Accurate, for $130. Cast 1000-1500 bullets, the mold is paid for.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Well have you priced alloy lately? It's not $2 for commercial #2, closer to $3/# today. You can't run a casting business casting from scrap alloy, the inconsistency will drive many customers away. If you hand cast or machine cast, price will be diff. I wouldn't hand cast for less than $10/hr wage. WIth a 6cav mold, you can crank 1000 out in about 75min. Then lube & size, another 45min, so 2hrs min. to make 1000, that is at least $20 in labor thrown in, not counting inspection & boxing. At 38# of alloy for 255gr bullets, over $100. Throw in a stick of bullet lube & box. I wouldn't sell them for less than $130/K & at that, you are making a whopping $20 for your effort. Why I don't sell bullets anymore. Oh & you need a FFL to produce bullets for commercial sale to be legal, FET too, add that to the cost.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

As usual, fredj338 put it into perspective. Just too many variables that keep adding to the cost...

I don't what weight your are looking for but MO Bullets has them for $41.00 - $54.00 for 400 or 500 ($58.50/500 with Hi-Tek II Coating). So it looks like Montana bullets is about twice as high.

Not to knit pick, but they are not the Same bullets. You can buy machine cast 255gr 45colts everywhere for half of the hand cast styles montana puts out. Does it matter? To some it does & they will pay for it.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I recently paid $42 plus tax for 500 .38 LSWC's here in MO. FWIW

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gone

Rim Rock Bullets is selling 255 grain LSWC (no magic "Keith" in the description) BHN 15 for $55 per 500.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Missouri Bullets sells a very similar bullet, a 255gr LSWC in either 12BHN or 18BHN for the same price, $48/400 bullets.

So, 1,000 would cost $120+S&H.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

This boy isn't paying that price--ever.

I don't load for that cal/bullet but I deal with Mastercast in PA. They list 4 different hard cast .45's for $80 to $90 per thousand. Don't know if any of those would work.

No, I didn't check alloy prices, I pulled the number out of my !%&... OF COURSE I CHECKED, and I can buy the alloy for $2.10 SHIPPED. Never mind where from... I don't take kindly to being called a liar.

And for you to talk about a LEE six cavity mould is virtual blasphemy... I have ruined more of those cheap pieces of **** than I want talk about, and by the way, check the weight variation and diameter differences among those six cavities. There is a reason nobody uses them for commercial work, and it goes beyond the fact they are a hand cast proposition only: they are JUNK! Oh, and while we are at it, let's talk about that high-tech sprue cutter design, shall we? You try casting a thousand bullets out of that precious Lee mould in an hour and 15 minutes and tell me how well it holds up. I already know... that is why I won't use Lee. Did you notice I said H&G? There is a reason.

And IF you want to do the math, you state that you wouldn't sell 1000 for less than $130. Well, my original post stated that Montana Bullet wants $118 and change for 500.

So what is your point?

Couple of years ago, at the height of the shortage, I found myself completely out of small pistol primers. Found a source with SP primers in stock, wanted $60.00 per thousand. Although I remember paying $11 or $12 per thousand, I choked up and ordered them.

Last summer a kids' summer camp I like to support could not find .22 rimfire ammo for their riflery program, at any price. I called everyone I knew, picked up a box or two here and there, and opened up the checkbook for a few overpriced bricks to keep the kids program going for the year. Since then we have affiliated the camp with the ODCMP and they are getting their training ammo via Civilian Marksmanship Program (an oversight no one ever thought about, back in the day when WalMart shelves groaned under loads of .22 ammo at bargain basement prices).

Now we have government programs targeting any business involved with sporting arms or ammunition, banks that won't allow accounts or credit card transactions when leaned on by the political hacks, insurance companies dropping businesses that are so risky as to sell anything related to firearms, small dealers undergoing repeated audits by overly zealous treasury agents, etc, etc, etc. Lead mines, smelters, and producers under pressure from EPA. States banning ammunition containing lead. No end to the inventiveness of anti-gun activists, in and out of government.

Sometimes we just have to swallow the outrage and pay the price to get what we want or need.

Personally, I have molds and dies for every caliber I shoot, and a few hundred pounds of old wheelweights and new linotype metal on hand to keep me supplied. Just have to remember to stay supplied with primers and powders.

I realize this is not directly comparable, but a local casting outfit sells a true Keith type 170gr .358 bullet(and yes, it is flat base and not bevel base) for around $50/500.

I'd have a hard time paying over $70 or $80/500 for any cast pistol bullet. Fortunately, there are a lot of makers out there supplying what I want for prices much less than that. I'll deal with the occasional less-than-perfect bullet from Missouri or the others to save as much money as we're talking about here.

Wow, some people. Ok so you are one of the few who can source several tons of #2 alloy a month for $2, not the going rate though. Prove me wrong, print your source. Your reading skills are off, maybe take a BP pill before exploding on a rant.
I mention the Lee mold, not because it is good, but because it is cheap. I mentioned $130 as a min & ONLY making $20 for all my work, so sure, higher prices make for more hourly wage. No one called you a liar, only pointing out that you may be unlrealstic about costs since the last time you were selling bullets it was like 1995?? Point, you want an oddball bullet style, hand cast from known alloy, you are going to pay more or it than machine cast from a Magma or Balisticast mold. A manuf gets wwhat he can for his product. The consumer decides if it's worth it. PRetty simple.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

what we need are a few centerfires to break the dependance upon 22LR.
25 auto, but stretched out about a quarter inch so that its easier to feed reliably in a variety of actions might be a worthy little cartridge for all tasks rimfire.
would not be as economical, but being reloadable, the band can play on.

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it just needs more voltage

Well here is your chance of a lifeime!. You can buy the business and make the big money fast!. Give him a call/e mail and make an offer!

Quality hand-cast bullets for reloaders, competitors, and recreational shooters - Montana Bullet Works


"10-27-2014 I am sorry to report that due to a recent spinal fusion surgery and the resultant permanent limitations on lifting and other movements, I can no longer operate MBW. In fact, MBW if FOR SALE. If you are interested in buying MBW, please email me and I can provide information on current assests, inventory, etc. "

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Still Running Against the Wind

Rule3, did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons the business is for sale is that folks are NOT buying the bullets at his prices, and as a result he is NOT making "big money fast"? If he were, he could afford to pay his help and STILL make a reasonable living!

That, by the way, was the intent of my original post: that his prices were too high, and I wondered if anybody was actually paying his prices. I guess I have my answer.

I agree, I imagine the Magma's are a little more consistent and group a little tighter.

Actually, Jeff, it stands to reason that the hand cast bullets will be closer in weight than the machine cast, and here is why:

A set of Magma moulds is eight two-cavity moulds. That is the potential for sixteen different cavity weights and measurements. The biggest Lyman 452424 mould they ever made was only four cavities. IF all things are equal, you have four times the potential for weight variation with the Magmas, and I have seen this with my own eyes... It is exactly the reason I started casting my own and quit buying; I can cast a better bullet than I can buy, and I can tailor for my own needs rather than having to choose what is out there commercially.

FWIW, the four cavity Lyman 454424 (slightly larger diameter bullet than the 452424) I use drops four projectiles that if I do my part are all within half a grain among the four cavities. That is pretty darned close!

I do not buy or use his bullets but it seems he is selling due to the quote above (medical reasons)????

I get all my cast bullets from MBC.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Based on what science? Gees! A cast bullet is only as good as the mold it comes out of. If you think a machine cast bullet is more accurate, then I submit you haven't done a lot of shooting or casting. The point of the hand casting, you have an unlimited bullet selection, what Montana had carved out as his niche in a crowded group of machine cast products. Then again, many are just fine shooting what everyone else does. No problem, just is what it is. He isn't going out of business because he isn't selling bullets.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Hand casting is a lot more labor. They are most likely hand sized too.

For general range shooting, the machine made is OK.

For hunting, I think the Keith and LBT bullets are a bit better. You dont need to practice with the expensive bullets so you dont need as many.

The Keith bullets were designed for long range. The shape and length of the nose helps keep them stable. You probably wouldnt notice any difference at 50 yards.

Also, you will find that some designs just work the best in your guns.

I like having a choice.

I have personally used Montana Bullet Works cast bullets in several calibers for some of my 19th Century rifles, and I can attest to the highest quality and reasonable prices. I am sorry to hear that he is no longer able to continue due to health reasons, and I hope a qualified person takes up where he has left off.

From The Missouri Bullet Companys web site.

45 Elmer K: .452 Diameter, .45 Colt (.452), 255 Grain SWC
Brinell 18
For Elmer Keith Fans
Price per box of 400
Price: $48.00. Shipping $14.00

Cowboy #9. .452 Diameter, .45 Colt (.452) 255 Grain SWC
Brinell 12
For Cowboy Action Velocities
Price per box of 400
Price: $48.00. Shipping $14.00.

Is this the correct Caliber you are looking for?