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11-07-2014, 03:48 PM
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Who loads full power wc's?
Wondering who out here in s&w land like to load full power wadcutters. I'm NOT interested in a debate about their effectiveness and this and that. Just wondering who's making them and WHAT components you're using.
I've made some up with 3.5 bullseye but even though I don't have a chronograph, they seem very tame. I know, I know, recoil isn't the best way to determine ballistics, but they really were mild. I have unique available to try and even herco, but I think it's too slow for 38 special (although I'd love to hear otherwise). It's just hard to find any data on anything besides target loads for 38 special hat cast solid base wadcutters (yeah yeah yeah, because they're made for punching paper, got it ).
So whatcha building yours with?
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11-07-2014, 03:50 PM
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Define "Full Power"? Equitable in power to factory available 38 Special? +P? Is there a certain velocity requirement? I've loaded some plated wadcutters at pretty punchy velocity.
If you're in Hellertown, by the way, be sure to check out Ken's indoor ICORE match. Its an action pistol match at an indoor range for revolvers only.
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11-07-2014, 03:58 PM
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By full power I'm looking for defensive velocities. +p pressures is fine too. Maybe in the 850-900fps range from a 4"?
And if you have any info about this ICORE match I'd love to hear. Thanks.
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11-07-2014, 04:40 PM
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I don't know if my posts are still findable here after The Great Post Loss, but NKJ Nut and I and some others discussed this in detail a few years back.
According to my manuals 5.1 grains of Unique/std primer is still standard pressure under a 148-grain Tennessee Valley Bullets DEWC, and it moves right out for me. M 1055.6/ES 86/SD 38 from a snub LCR for me back in July (ABQ city range/5950'>sea level/10% humid/78 degrees F).
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11-07-2014, 05:27 PM
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Excellent Erich! I'll see if I can find that old thread.
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11-07-2014, 05:47 PM
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My standard range load is 4.6 Unique and the 158 cast SWC. Not a powder puff but doesn't beat the gun up either. For mid to upper end loads Unique works great in the .38 Spl. Better powders for low end. 231 BE etc.
If you are looking to load a defensive round Power Pistol might give you higher velocity.
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11-07-2014, 06:04 PM
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Look in the lyman manual. They list full pressure loads, about 5 over 1,000 fps from a 4" special vented test barrel.
I have a box of 148 WC max load 231 getting 904 fps out of my 2" Chiefs special. These are in my 637 on my ankle right now. They are accurate. I don't shoot many. I cast them from 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 pure lead.
I quit casting a while ago , so I bought 1,000 HI TEK coated 138 grain Button nose wadcutters. I plan to load them to max standard pressure. I am going to try a couple powders.
I also bought 500 HBWC for 2.8 bullseye when I fire up the dillion this winter.
I procured a 4" model 15-3 recently. Its going to be great at the matches this winter with both of these loads.
David
Proof
After this target I will stick with them.
More Edit: The lyman manual shows loads for a 141 grain wadcutter cast of Linotype up to 40,000 CUP. in the 357 section.
Velocities in the 1300 range. I have never shot them over 1,000 fps. Could be a good experiment.
I think the bullet makes the case size smaller and more efficient.
Last edited by David R; 11-07-2014 at 07:00 PM.
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11-07-2014, 06:06 PM
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Last year I chronographed a load consisting of 3.5 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain SNS cast DEWC. Primers used were CCI 500 with Starline brass. I recorded an average of 851 FPS from a 4" model 15-3 and 785 FPS from a 1 7/8" 637-2.
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11-07-2014, 06:10 PM
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Thank you KLYDE. I use a similar charge of 4.5 for swc at the range. Thanks for the idea about power pistol. Different powders to look for is part of the reason for this thread. Of course, pending I can actually find said powders. :0
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11-07-2014, 06:15 PM
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Hard SWCs, yes...
But not WCs as all the ones I buy are soft.
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11-07-2014, 06:20 PM
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Jim,
Just for kicks I took a look at the Alliant web site. No data for the full wad cutter in +P but they did have a load for the Speer 158 LSWC.
Unique was 5.2 @ 919 fps
Power Pistol was 6 @ 1037 fps
Obviously a different bullet but you can get a general idea.
IIRC there is a good thread where the OP attempted to duplicate the Buffalo Bore ammo. I think Power Pistol ended up getting the closest.
The other day the LGS had about 15 lbs of PP on the shelf. Heading back tomorrow. He'll only sell 1 lb a week to you.
Wish I could mail you a jug.
Last edited by KLYDE; 11-07-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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11-07-2014, 06:23 PM
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David, that 231 load is moving along nicely from a snub. I shot up a bunch of those same hi tek 138's. If I didn't pick up 500 hard cast button nose wc at the last show I attended I'd have some more of those. They were so easy to clean, just like plated or jacketed. I also have 100 or so 158 swc from them to load up.
Coastie, interesting velocity from that bullseye load and thanks for posting that. Like I said, the old recoil in the hand trick isn't accurate. I have my eye on a certain chronograph that's at auction right now. I really think it's the missing piece of equipment for me. Will be eye opening for sure!
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Last edited by Boogsawaste; 11-08-2014 at 09:38 PM.
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11-07-2014, 08:51 PM
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Boogsawaste, you are very welcome. I've owned a number of chronographs over the past 20 years or so and they have proven very useful. However sometimes they will raise more questions than answers. Part of the fun of the hobby, I guess...
I am a big fan of Power Pistol as well. I started out using it in 9mm and .357 Sig loads but have been using it more often in mid to full power cast loads for my revolvers. 6.0 grains of PP with a Missouri Bullet cast SWC averaged 978 FPS from the above 15-3 and 996 FPS from a 4" barreled 64-3. I have found it to work very well in .44 Special cast loads also.
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11-07-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLYDE
Wish I could mail you a jug.
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Wish you could too. And while you're at it, stick that special m64 you have in the box too.
Thanks for the info/suggestions everyone. Gave me some powders to look for and more ideas to try. You guys rock.
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11-07-2014, 09:29 PM
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I have never used Power pistol.
From lyman # 47
141 gr wadcutter
Bullseye 4.1 973 fps 16,800 Cup
Red Dot 4.2 961 fps 16,400 Cup
231 4.9 1001 fps 16,800 Cup I am getting 900 out of my chiefs special.
I want to try the red dot.
David
And more.
I hope I did not violate any tos.
Last edited by David R; 11-07-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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11-08-2014, 01:12 AM
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When building target wadcutters:
3.2gr W231 under a 148gr HBWC
3.4gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC
For more serious work:
4.2gr to 4.5gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC (slightly above current published data)
5.2gr to 5.4gr HS-6 under a 148gr DEWC (slightly above current published data)
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11-08-2014, 08:46 AM
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I used to hunt varmints and used the factory wadcutters. I was very surprised at the dismal results from a 4 or 6 inch barrel. I think it may be because of the soft lead used. When it hits something it may round off too easily. Also the factory speeds were very low. Never tried a hard cast at better speeds so it might work. +P 38 Special speeds with a 110 gr JHP worked just fine so I stuck with that. That was my issue carry load and I received factory wadcutters for practice.
The hard cast wadcutter at 900 fps from a snubbie might be the best load for the short barreled 38 Special. There is a lot of discussion about using the wadcutter for self defense but I can find no info on results. There may have been some departments that issued wadcutters for a carry load but I cant find any real evidence of it. The factory wadcutters are loaded to a lot less pressure than even the standard 158 gr LRN ammo. Buffalo Bore makes a 150 gr hard cast wadcutter load that should work. Years ago there was a faster wadcutter load made but the new ones are mostly low pressure.
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11-08-2014, 10:53 AM
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The only thing I remember about wadcutters from a 38 special is the old "trick" of using soft hollow base WC loaded nose down or backwards so that the base became a massive hollow point. This from the days when most departments issued round nose low pressure rounds. It's been too long since I've heard anything about this handload to quote anything about powders or velocity, but I always thought it would be an interesting load.
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11-08-2014, 11:14 AM
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People sometimes ask me what my favorite dinosaur load was. I must be getting old. But, I do recall very plainly that 3.5 grains of Bullseye was considered maximum for pressure while 2.7 grains was maximum for accuracy.
I've heard of coroners' reports indicating that wadcutters were indeed quite damaging to the human body. However, if they were a truly viable self defense load, police departments would have used them as such during revolver days. You're free to load what you want in your SD gun. However, wadcutters would be a nightmare to load from any device or even singly. They should not be used for tactical reloads.
Those here using hard-cast bullets have more options regarding peak loads. Soft lead projectiles need to be throttled back to prevent leading.
Last edited by federali; 11-08-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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11-08-2014, 11:49 AM
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Federali, I really didn't want to get into the "why" I choose to use them. But here's my take. In a 4", I would use jhp or LSWCHP. In a snub I recently tried my normal carry load of speer 125 +p gold dots, hornady with the ftx tip, and some hydrashoks. All factory loads. A few weeks ago I shot a single speer into water jugs. It expanded perfectly. I decided to go out last week and shoot some more and the others because I wasn't convinced with my results. Now I'm not sure how good a water expansion test is, and I didn't even introduce any denim, but I got some to fail to expand per cylinder of all those tested. Let's just say I needed a LOT of water jugs as the non expanded ones went through a bunch of them! I decided that snubs didn't pump up the velocity enough to take chances. In my opinion, right or wrong, I'd rather have an expanding hollow point, but I'll compromise and use wadcutters since they'll behave similar all the time. I would be happy to have gold dot short barrel loads but they are extremely hard to find. I like to practice with my carry loads so rolling some wadcutters hot means I can shoot them a lot and always make more.
And about the police agencies using them. I can't answer this and can only speculate. My guess is that they mostly use commercially manufactured ammunition and factory wadcutters are better at punching paper. And I would carry something else in a reload. Either LSWCHP or possibly jhp. I do appreciate your opinions on this though.
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11-08-2014, 02:24 PM
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My "house gun", a 2" .38, is loaded with 150 WC, over a near max. load of W231. Good across the room accuracy (ain't tried them beyond 10 yards) and I'm sure they would be effective. I have some 250 gr., .44 cal. full wadcutters that I've loaded for my magnums, but so far just light loads...
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11-08-2014, 02:34 PM
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My 148 WC are loaded with 5.0 gr HS6. I seat to the crimp groove, not flush with the case.
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11-08-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali
... However, if they were a truly viable self defense load, police departments would have used them as such during revolver days...
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According to my father in law, and some other still surviving LEO's who served locally in the 60's the wad cutters and semi-wad cutters were the preferred loads of the officers. The round nosed 38 Special loadings were the issue ammo due to budget concerns. Even with the switch to .357 Magnum revolvers many departments stuck with the less expensive .38 Special round nose issue ammo.
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11-08-2014, 02:40 PM
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Has anyone used either plated or coated WC to help achieve the increased velocities desired?
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11-08-2014, 03:05 PM
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Hey Boogawaste,
Not 38's, but I have always had a soft spot in my heart for WC's and load .44 WC .208 grain Lee (throws em at about 213 gr) for use in my Bulldog 2 1/2" barrel and my SBH 7 1/2" barrel. Load them from very light "cream puff" loads up too just under recommended max loads. Was getting some fairly bad leading with the warmer loads. But determined I was not lubing them adequately. Once sorting that out things have been fine. Powders used are Unique, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Bullseye using load data for comparable weight cast bullets. Seating them flush with light loads and extended for heavier loads to avoid compressed loads. Have only punched holes in paper and clay pigeons but accuracy is on par with any of the other of the cast bullets I make. I plan on carrying a few for use on small game that may present a target when working on some woodland property we recently acquired in Northern WI. I see no reason why they will not perform well in that role.
Be well all.
Last edited by Duster340; 11-08-2014 at 08:49 PM.
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11-08-2014, 03:22 PM
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I have shot rabbits with wadcutters. They make a good hole. If they travel long ways through, meat is no good. They can tumble but just leave more of a mess.
Duster I am in the process of getting a new Bulldog.
David
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11-08-2014, 03:30 PM
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The RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 , shows a maximum load for 38 Special, with their 148 grain cast wadcutter , 38-148-WC, sized .358, with5.2 grains of Unique for 999 fps.
The starting load is 4.7 grains Unique for 894 fps.
My typical load is 5.0 grains of Unique, with any cast bullet from 140 grains to 160 grains. The winner in my limited accuracy testing is the Lyman #358432, 160 grain wadcutter. This is a good bullet for maximum wadcutter loads. Stay away from soft swaged lead WC's they will lead up quick.
Gary
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11-08-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
I have shot rabbits with wadcutters. They make a good hole. If they travel long ways through, meat is no good. They can tumble but just leave more of a mess.
Duster I am in the process of getting a new Bulldog.
David
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Thanks for the tumbling tip David. As bad as my eyes are, doubt I'll be shooting far enough for that to be a problem LOL.
And congrats on your soon to be new purchase. I can tell you that my Bulldog has exceeded my expectations. So much so that I'm eyeballing a .40 S&W Pitbull to accompany my M&P 40.
Sorry about the thread topic creep Boogawaste. All this talk about WC's has be all jacked up LOL.
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11-08-2014, 06:06 PM
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Lots more good info! And don't worry about thread drift. Don't mind at all.
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11-08-2014, 07:21 PM
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I cast a bunch of Lee's DEWC (tumble-lubed) and found them to be very accurate (well, duh) at several different velocities. Since some of them were cast in a fairly hard alloy, I thought I try them with a stiff load of 231. They crono out at 900+/- fps (2" Taurus), 950 fps in my 4" Mdl 10 and 980 fps in my 4" Mdl 586.
I suspect they'd be a very good defense load. I think I've mentioned it before, but they do a great job on my preferred 'bad-guy' testing media: rotten Doug fir stumps (hard outside, softer and crumbly inside). Some slight mushroom, but the rest of the bullet holding together, good penetration.
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11-08-2014, 09:08 PM
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That's what I like to hear WaMike. Thanks for posting.
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11-09-2014, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellD
Has anyone used either plated or coated WC to help achieve the increased velocities desired?
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You mean like these?
Missouri Bullet Company
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11-09-2014, 02:38 AM
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Ah, about shooting rabbits..............
when you use a bullet that is almost as big as they are, you need to try for head shots,
if you want any thing worth putting into the pot.
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11-09-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed
Ah, about shooting rabbits..............
when you use a bullet that is almost as big as they are, you need to try for head shots,
if you want any thing worth putting into the pot.
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OK, we were shooting the rabbits with a scoped contender. If they were not broadside, the shot would destroy the rabbit.
One other time it was new years day. The snowshoe Rabbits (hare) were white and the snow was gone. We were in the woods shooting the rabbits with 38s using iron sights and wadcutters. One was using a 22 rifle. We all got our limit.
Head shots are easy with a scope, not as much with irons.
I will be loading those Bayou bullets pretty soon.
I will post results.
David
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11-09-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD
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Those are still BR 12 with the implied limitations.
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11-09-2014, 12:13 PM
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I load DEWC in 357. I buy them sized and lubed about 17 brinnell hardness. Fill to bottom of bullet with 2400 powder. Makes an accurate, very hard hitting round.
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11-09-2014, 05:51 PM
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Alright fellas, made a BUNCH of test loads last night and went out today to try them out. My best of the bunch accuracy wise were 4.7 unique with the crimp in the first lube groove. This brought the bullet right up to the throats in the cylinder. The groups closed up more than the 4.5 unique set up the same way. However that's as hot as I made them. I just got tired of hand weighing every charge for all these test loads honestly. I might make up some more at 4.9 and 5.1 and see how those go.
These were shot from 10 yards standing unsupported from a model 10, slowish double action.
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11-09-2014, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluetopper
I load DEWC in 357. I buy them sized and lubed about 17 brinnell hardness. Fill to bottom of bullet with 2400 powder. Makes an accurate, very hard hitting round.
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Is this for 38 special? Wasn't sure 2400 worked well for 38's.
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11-09-2014, 07:42 PM
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Nice shooting Jim.
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11-09-2014, 09:10 PM
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Hot wad utters
Some time ago I lucked into many lbs. of Win. 630 at auction.
I worked up a load for my 6" m-19 with Lyman#358495 WC
Cast with Linotype& tin, at 20 to 1 ratio. Sized to .358, over
10.5 gr. of Win. 630. Crimped on grease groove. Used CCI
Small mag pistol primer. Bullet comes out at 140 gr. with this
alloy. I've no chrony but calc. this at 1000 to 1050 fps.
Load same bullet for 8 3/8". K-38 with 4 1/2 gr. P-5066 at about
950 fps.
Both loads very accurate. Powder obsolete.
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11-09-2014, 09:16 PM
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Thank you duster340
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11-10-2014, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by at_liberty
Those are still BR 12 with the implied limitations.
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What would those limitations be? Even a plain lead bullet with a 12 BHN can be loaded to at least 1000 fps without a problem and probably more depending upon the bullet/barrel fit. Add the fact of the Hi-Tec coating and those bullets can probably be pushed to full pressure .357 Magnum pressures without a problem.
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11-10-2014, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD
What would those limitations be? Even a plain lead bullet with a 12 BHN can be loaded to at least 1000 fps without a problem and probably more depending upon the bullet/barrel fit. Add the fact of the Hi-Tec coating and those bullets can probably be pushed to full pressure .357 Magnum pressures without a problem.
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I don't know, but Missouri seems to. Their higher velocity bullets are BR18.
1000 fps is a mere plinker in a 327 Federal Magnum.
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11-10-2014, 10:05 AM
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duplicate post
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11-10-2014, 07:42 PM
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38 wadcutters are very good thumpers. Compare WC front diameter to a SWC 44 or 45 and you will understand why. Many discussions on tests of hard cast Buffalo Bore WCS.
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11-10-2014, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by at_liberty
I don't know, but Missouri seems to. Their higher velocity bullets are BR18.
1000 fps is a mere plinker in a 327 Federal Magnum.
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Velocity isn't the problem, pressure is and most times it's not the velocity or pressure causing leading, it's improper bullet/barrel fit.
Leading is often caused by too low a pressure than too high. But that doesn't matter as much when you're using coated bullets. You are quoting a formula used for lead bullets but I linked to coated bullets. The Hi-Tec 2 coating makes the outside of the bullet very hard much in the way plating does only the coating seems to be harder.
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11-10-2014, 11:17 PM
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I get away from casting bullets for awhile, then I re-read a thread like this and get excited about doing some casting. I am fortunate to live next door to the guru of bullet moulds in So. Nevada. He is my expert source of info that I need to satisify some question. I read this thread tonight and immediately called him about using full wadcutters for SD. He is 82 yrs. young now and is a retired LA County Sheriff. He told me that some of the Detectives carried wadcutter loads in their BUG, usually a Colt Detective special. He got interested and knowing a very competent Tool & Die maker got him to cut a tool to nicely add a little depth to a Lyman No. 35863 mould just gas check size. He pushed those resulting gas checked wadcutters up to 1500 fps out of a six inch barrel S&W. He has forgotten which model it was but thinks it probably was a M 28 Highway Patrolman. He remembers using pure Linotype metal and WW 231. The handgun and the mould are both long gone. He said that the accuracy at 1500 fps was only fair but certainly good for 'close work' :-).
I am sort of thinking about duplicating his efforts as I too know a great T&D maker here in LV and I have a Lyman 35863. Oh, and I have a 6" bbl. M 28. His efforts were about 30 years ago and probably have covered all that I could do today, but what the heck, I'm retired and always looking for an interesting project. ........... Big Cholla
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11-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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I use Jim Cirillos Safe stops
These were tested by another member
The one on the right is what you want it some what open a little bullet is
Traveling about 800 fps
Last edited by pete950; 11-11-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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11-11-2014, 11:40 AM
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Big Cholla, glad to have sparked your interest. I hope to hear back about how your tests have gone. Sounds like something I'd be interested in!
And Pete, wish I could still get my hands on some of those safe stops. I wonder, does anyone make a mold for them? Always thought they looked sinister.
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11-11-2014, 11:19 PM
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Jim: I'm getting a little more enthused. This afternoon, I went over and talked to my retired LACS friend and while he added little to what he had already told me, he did suggest that I just cast some hard bullets and then use my lathe to cut gas check bottoms on a few to see if I could get any accuracy out of my M 28. I don't think that I will............I am a big "go big or go home" guy and I would rather go whole hog and have bragging rights to having the only full wadcutter gas check mould in So. Nevada :-) My T&D man is not going to charge me much to make the cutting tool and I have a great mill to actually re-cut the mould.
I go in tomorrow afternoon for cataract surgery on my left eye. Maybe I could get the mechanical drawing of the tool cutter that I need drawn up before I go. By the time I can work in the shop again the tool will be ready. :-). .............. Big Cholla
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