I just got my M&P .45 compact running again and sorted a bunch of cases I had bought and otherwise accumulated last year. All are nickled, once fired, and not cleaned. (Of course, they're not 'dirty'.) Pistol shooting, for me, is about Personal Defense and practice therefor, so I'm fussy about reliability of pistol and load and not about accuracy. Therefore I tend to mix case brands and types. Tonite I sorted all this stuff and weighed 5 cases of each different brand and type. The results surprised me.

Average case weight:
Speer, 94.4grains (from 185g. Gold Dot loads)

Federal, 87.7g.
Hornady standard and +P*, 87.5g.
R(em.) - P(eters) +P*, 87.1

Starline, 83.4g.

The three brands of cases in the middle bunch I recombined and now have three different batches of cases to load.

* These three weights tend to support some reloaders' beliefs that the headstamp is the only difference between standard and +P cases. I'll soon have some cases from Speer's 200g. +P Gold Dot load; we'll see if the weights of Speer's standard and +P cases support that.

And FWIW, here are four cartridges I shot or reloaded. Left-to-right, Hornady Critical Duty 220g., Hornady Critical Defense 185, Speer Gold Dot 185, and my current practice load with a Ranier plated 185.

There are 7,000 grains to a pound. 5 grains = 0.0114 ounce. What kind of differences are you looking for? Are you going to weigh individual primers next before reloading ammo?

This is handgun ammo fired at less than 25 feet. Sight alignment and trigger squeeze are the only issues here. Reality check needed!

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S&WHF 366

The data is interesting (I suppose), but what does it all mean, and does it really affect anything?

The only thing I weigh is powder. Anything else has never been an issue.

But I've seen how OCD affects people.

I would say that it does affect something. If the case is heavier, it likely has a smaller internal volume and can affect pressure and velocity.

I personally observed that Remington cases in 45 ACP produce higher velocities than Winchester cases with the same powder charge. I would suspect that the cases are different weights, meaning they have different internal volumes.

Mike

I know rifle shooters get into weighing the brass and components for long range and precision shooting. From doing this I have found that FC and Winchester .308 brass is more consistent than some of the other brands I have on hand.
But, I've never done it for pistol reloading. Most of my handgun shooting is speed type shooting and 50 yds. or a lot less. And 80% to 90% of max charge. So, + MOA + is OK.
Still interesting information. Thanks,,

Well, I like to know about the components I'm using and just from the results of the OP's testing, he knows that the Speer brass is prolly the thickest, and Starline is mebbe the thinnest walled. He now knows something he didn't know prior to the test. Some seem to think ignorance is bliss, that if knowledge doesn't have any appreciable/seeable/immediate difference, it need not be known. Should we just close our eyes to any knowledge if someone thinks it will not apply? Not this guy! Thanks for the info jefferybehr...

Which only supports the reason you can't weigh loaded rds to find a rd w/o powder.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Okay, perhaps it does affect something. But to what degree, and is it worth checking? Even worse, is it worth the time it takes to check and obsess over? I have to say no.

When you say "I personally observed", are you talking about chronographing the different loads by case weight and coming up with different velocities? But then you say that you "suspect" the cases are different weights. But you don't know for sure, right?

I'm not making a big thing out of this, but unless I see some concrete data...chronograph results relating to different charges, bullet weights, and bullet shapes in cases of different weights, I'm thinking a case weight difference of a grain or a tenth of a grain is nitpicking and not worth fooling with, and really not worth further discussion...so I'm gonna stop now.

That's just my opinion and...

What scale did you use? To what degree is it's accuracy?.

A sample of 5 cases is not statisticaly valid, What about different case lots of cases? Nickel plating may add more weight.

The cases were "dirty" how much does the carbon "dirt" weigh?

Everyone in the whole web universe says Starline is the best brass

If you are not accurate than you will not have good odds in a self defense situation.

Bench rest shooters do this kind of checking on everything, for handguns???

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Still Running Against the Wind

The wonderful thing about reloading is there are so many different things that you can weigh and measure. You can get as anal and OCD about all the variations and theororize about how this is going to affect pressure, accuracy, function. And have a great time doing it.
Me , I just load em and shoot.
Gary

Yes it has a minor affect but in the low pressure 45acp, not worth trying to keep track of.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

And don't forget about the 4 different size primer holes. I give all my plated brass to people I shoot with. They need to be cleaned if you go to that much trouble & you need to be able to shoot 100 with one hand at 25 yards to tell a difference. I am not that bored yet.

To my first 3 postists--WOW, take it easy! First, I do NOT weigh pistol cases, I merely weighed these 5-case batches to see if there was a significant difference, and if there was, I'd keep the lightest and heaviest cases separated. I now have 3, NOT 5, batches of cases separated for reloading.

As for accuracy, my ability to shoot the pistol highly accurately is FAR worse than the worst load's accuracy, so the loads' accuracy really doesn't matter.

I guess I won't post any more in this forum lest one of the AirForce guys gets too excited about someone doing some harmless thing that HE doesn't like and maybe has a heart attack...NOT.

Engineer1911, pls take your sarcasm elsewhere; it's really not needed here.

Don't quit--I thought the post gave something to think about. I have been thinking about working up some black powder loads for 45 acp. Sometimes we spat and tomorrow is another day. Next year will be better. Sometimes r&r don't mean repair & replace.

Don't stop posting. A lot of us here are just old fart curmudgeons.

The question is what to do with the data collected?? If you have a chronograph is there a difference in velocity? Again a bigger sample is needed.

More important is the internal dimensions of the brass. Does one brand have a larger volume over the others?? That makes a difference in some calibers (223 VS 5.56) but how much in 45 ACP I do not know.

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Still Running Against the Wind

All of the variables of reloading handgun ammo combined won't affect accuracy more that I do.

Its the thing with the internet & forums in general. Hard to read between the lines, & I am amazed how thin skinned people can be. Unless someone is calling you names, just ignore what ever inference is running inside your head.
Your investigation is valid, we all have done it. It's part of learning the hobby. The point, it just doesn't matter in the actual practice of reloading. I load a lot of 45acp, maybe 10K a year. All goes in mixed cases. I am not shooting max loads so pressures are not an issue. My best 1911 & XDTAC will shoot sub 2" groups @ 25yds. I might shave that to 1 1/2" using matched components, but unless you shoot 50yd bullseye, just not gonna matter.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

jeffreybehr,

If you have gotten over your 'vapors', which ammo shot the smallest group, which ammo shot closest to the point of aim, and which ammo gave the most "pleasant" sense of recoil?

The Reloading Forum continues to amaze me when it comes to things to measure repeatedly and record as significant data. I believe that only two things are important about reloading ammo 1) safety of the powder charge & bullet combination for shooting in your gun, 2) group size.

I have been at outdoor ranges listening to shooters discuss the incredible accuracy of their loads, rifles, scopes, ............... to painful levels. Group size and wind conditions are seldom measured or mentioned. I have an original Bushmaster AR15 that shoots incredible size groups at 100 yards that are consistently under 3/8" on a calm day. Out at the prairie dog patch in 30 mph variable direction winds, the group size at 250 yards is measured in feet -- yeah when the cross hairs are on the target and dust flies 3 feet downwind of the target, the group size is feet. But I expect to miss sometimes because of the wind.

I have two custom built 45 ACP 1911s. Those guns are far more accurate than I am now because of age (shaky grip) and bad eyes that can't clearly see sights and target. But they are fun to shoot, and give a real sense of 'satisfaction of ownership'. I spent days at the range finding the most accurate powder charge, bullet weight, bullet shape, OAL, and who knows what else. The conclusion was the groups I shot in 1985 with a revolver have nothing to do with group size shooting a 45 ACP 1911. I got over my group size problem and went back to shooting for fun.

Edit: Ooops!! Am I'm trying to be the next Skip Sackett?

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S&WHF 366

I load and shoot lots of 45 ACP, primarily in USPSA, IDPA and ICORE. I don't weigh cases but I do sort my brass by headstamp. I use a specific headstamp for each different load. I also chronograph each type of ammo I make to be sure I make power factor and to check the ammo for excess pressure signs.

I did once try to weigh some rounds to figure which had no powder charges...that doesn't work as Jeff's post suggests.

I think some of the comments made in this thread were excessively, sneeringly sarcastic! Come on guys....one of the reasons we like this forum is CIVILITY.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I come from a long range rifle shooting background, so it is normal for me to weigh brass regardless of caliber, and segregate. It is how I was taught.(whether it is a waste or not).
I have my own system, and have been doing it for 40yrs plus, so its normal for me.
If you know what your brass weighs before loading, it exactly works to find a squib, or doubleload.
I already have my brass in batches of 3 grains, so when loaded, I run them through the scale, and it is obvious if one is off.
I do this with used brass my father handed down. Not new brass.
It might not need to be done, but I let my family shoot my pistols, and an extra step or two, is ok by me.
I did buy a hornady powder die, for the LNL, and gotta say it is nice. I am going to try it on the dillon, and see how it works there, but for now, I weigh everything. TWICE

The rounds I was weighing to find the ones with no powder were all Winchester brass and 200 gr LSWCs. The charge was supposed to be 5.6 gr of 231. Unfortunately, the variation in brass weight and bullet weight made it impossible to reliably detect the absence of powder.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I did not weigh them, but I did critically think about it. What else could it be when the case was the only change? I assumed from the chronograph results that the internal volume of the Remington cases were less than the Winchester. I did not weigh them to back up the theory because it didn't matter that much to me. It was just an observation.

My conclusion was... if I want to put together some good defense loads using hollow point bullets, use the Remington cases to squeeze out an extra 20 FPS.

Mike

Hey! I resemble that remark. But don't worry about me, the ticker's in great shape. I just wish the rest of me was.

(I don't clean primer pockets either.)

Unless all loads were fired on the same day, 20fps variation could be temp alone. SOme powders can vary that much easily within the same brass. Another factor, how many times fired? New brass will give diff vel than 10X fired, same headstamp. Just too many variables to sweat case wt.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

THAT IS LIKE trying to be the next John Wayne. Jeff Bridges did a good job. Beg for forgiveness. I like your posts.

I just looked at my chrono records. The low velocities from Winchester cases were recorded on an 80 degree day. The higher velocities in Remington cases were recorded on a 55 degree day. So there was a temperature difference.

Same lot of primers, same can of powder, all cases once fired.

Mike

QUOTE: [On page 434 of the Speer Reloading Manual Number 12, the short essay on that page, “Why Ballisticians Get Gray” by Dave Andrews, first appeared in the Speer Reloading Manual Number 9 in 1974. The essay was written in response to folks who questioned the validity of the velocities listed for handgun cartridges published by Speer, and probably every other reloading manual that was ever published.] QUOTE Link to full article is first one below.

I had Speer Reloading Manual #9 when I started reloading in 1975. Speer tested different cases of ammo in different 357 mag firearms. The velocity variation between guns of the same barrel length is the reason for the article's title.

Read more: Wolfe Publishing Company


Google [ "why ballisticians get gray" and Speer ] for a complete listing of links.

Listing of firearms tested: Why Ballisticians Get Gray

A brief summary of the original article: Wolfe Publishing Company

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S&WHF 366

I don't expect anyone to load like me, but if they were my batches of 3 grains or less, you would have found it easily.
Mine is more time consuming, sure, but it gives me peace, so that's what I do. I can run 100 rounds over my scale in less than 5 minutes. They only have to sit a second for me to see the weight, and then if one shows up heavy or light, it is put aside, and pulled.
I know most don't do it, or think its necessary, but like I said above, habits die hard.
Even with my hornady powder die, I still run them over the scale, till I get confident it works, so far so good.

Not picking on you but it sort of invalidates any data. A 30deg dif in temp can easily produce 20-25fps vel diff. More relevant than internal cap in the 45.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The variation in weight of cases answers a question I had before I started reloading. I wondered if weighing the cases after they were loaded would be a good way to check for under or overcharge. That was before I knew that components could vary as much as they do and that any variation in the weight of everything but the powder could easily exceed the weight of the powder. So if you wanted to use fully loaded weight as a way to double check powder load you would necessarily need to know the weight of all components excluding the powder.

With the powder I have now for .380 I hand measure and pour each load mostly because the powder doesn't meter well at 3grains or so and partly because I don't reload a lot of .380 at a time and one thing I do before I start is to quickly sort the cases by weight so that when I start trickling powder I don't have to re zero between every single case. And I have been weighing every charge mainly because at 3 grains if you are off by 0.5 grains that is a more significant variance than if you are off by 0.5 grains on a rifle load with 20 grains desired. When I use up all my flake powder I will see if the other powders I have meter better in small quantities though I may need to get the adjustable charge bar for the smaller loads.

I've reloaded for 40+ years and just can't wrap my head around weighing pistol brass to +/- three grains. I doubt you would see any difference with a Ransom. It makes little enough difference with rifles.

But was the difference in the anticipated direction? I had it in my head that warmer temps would increase velocities and colder temps would decrease velocities. That is opposite of what I observed.

Mike

This is a generalization based on YOUR experiences and does not hold true for all powders in all temperatures. I'll give two examples from my experience.

WST(Winchester Super Target, formerly 452AA) is temperature sensitive. But, it loses velocity severely when cartridges or shotgun shells sit in the sun during a match. A friend and I were using WST in 40 S&W ammo which chronoed well at home. At an all day match near Omaha our ammo chronoed minor and was down over 100fps. When we made inquiries, old shotgunners told us it was a well-known problem with WST/452AA.

Second, Vihtavouri powders from Finland are very stable even below freezing temps. I have personally loaded and fired over chrono VV ammo that was frozen and ammo that was heated from sun exposure. The velocity change was minimal.

My point is NOT that I know more than any of the other posters in this thread. The point is we should all stop quoting our necessarily limited experiences as generally true in ALL cases.

A little more humility will go a long way.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

All powders suffer some temp sensitivity, all. The amount is the only dispute. So my point is 100% valid; testing on diff days with diff temps nullifies any "result" as being definitive. Even altitude changes affect vel, again, regardless of powder choice. Not a lot but the op was talking 20fps, easily within the range for a change in temp or elevation. So again, with or without humility, other factors will have a greater affect than a slight internal volume diff.
Btw, weighing the case does not tell the whole story. Variations in the rim & extractor groove can account for 1-2gr, then thickness of brass, thickness of the case head, another 2-3gr. The only wy o know the volume is fill the case with water or fine anything & weigh the volume. A tedious task at best for little to no gain.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Everything you say is 100% valid Fred and we'll just get used to your lack of humility.

Have a nice life,

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Made that mistake when I first started reloading. Duh.

It depends on the powder. Some powders are rev temp sensitive.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Bob, you need to get a life. I am constantly amazed at how ANYONE can infer humility or lack of thru an internet exchange. So when someone is correct about something & states it, that means a lack of humility, really? Gees. Truly political correctness run amok.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

With rifles, I did it for accuracy.
With pistols, I do it for safety.
Whether you can wrap your head around it or not. It is my system, and it works for me.
I If I have spare time, I go out, and weigh cases. I can do a 1000 under 30 minutes. when I load, all I have to do is reach for a bag, and I know the weights. It is actually pretty simple.
Edit.
If I gave you 500 of my cases, and had you load them, and make one a squib, and one a double, and stick it in the batch, I could find it in 10-15 minutes..Guaranteed.

Received today and shot some .45 Auto +P Speer Gold Dot 200g. cartridges, load #53969. Ten of those fired cases averaged 93.4 grains, about 1% less than the other batches of Speer nickled cases. That means to me that Speer uses heavier (hence stronger) cases in at least these two .45 Auto loads whether labeled +P or not.

So I'm still at 3--but only 3--batches of weight-distinguished cases.

FWIW, both Speer loads have performed 100% perfectly reliably in my M&P compact, and I'm now carrying the 200s.

Again, the only way to determine whether the cases are thicker is measure internal volume. 1% is a small variation in case wt.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Come on, Fred, READ! The point is that both the Speer cases are much heavier than the other cases...that they're already +P cases whereas all the others, even those marked +P, aren't any heavier/thicker than non-+P-marked cases.

Your system is fine with me, so have at it.

In the 40+ years and tens of thousands of pistol and rifle cartridges I've loaded, I have never had a squib or double charge. The only primers I've blow have been on factory ammo.

If you have concerns about double charges or squibs, either continue doing what you are doing or change your system. I'd rather be shooting the loaded ammo instead of weighing it.

I thought your approach was fine. You are observing, measuring, learning, and critically thinking. Maybe your only mistake was posting that you have done something different or out of the ordinary on this forum. I am a little disappointed in the tone of some of these posts. I have learned from this post that if I make a unique observation, it is best if I keep it to myself.

Mike

Thanks, fred. I now understand why Skip Sackett blew his cork and got banned.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

My guess would be, just like finding weight differences in various brass, you'll also find differences in bullet weight, primers and chrono results. Unless you're doing extreme precision shooting, who cares? In weighing numerous loaded rounds, I've found enough of a difference in weight that I couldn't determine if the case had a powder charge or not. You might be able to if it were a heavily loaded round but I'm not sure.

I am reading you are not. The weight of the brass has several variables, the most important is internal volume. You are trying to equate a heavier case with smaller volume, not always the result. If this all makes you feel good have at it. Maybe I just don't get the exercise or what you think you are trying to achieve.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I love riddles. Bob, you need to stop attacking the messenger just because you don't like the message. I have never on this forum attacked a member with statements about their humility, intelligence or mental stability. Unlike certain other members, maybe you? You don't like what I say, ignore me. If I am wrong, please show me. Your opinion of me, I really don't care.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

With 20 GALLONS of 45 ACP brass that is tumbled and ready for reloading, I be busy for a few days weighing and sort brass into 3 grain increments. At least I have all the nickel brass in one bucket.

Do I weigh my 110 POUNDS of 45 200 grain SWC one at a time before or after they are sized and lubed? Weighing unsized bullets is quicker and neater, but not accurate because the bullet lube adds 5 to 7 grains to the bullet's weight.

I know, I'll just tumble lube the unsized bullets, use my Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die to address the "Fat Case" problem. My Dillon 550 with auto primer feed and auto powder dispense will reload satisfactory ammo for my needs. I will depend on experience and attention to detail to safely reload 1,500 rounds of ammo in a leisurely 4 hours.

I see several range days coming up!

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S&WHF 366