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Old 08-10-2018, 11:03 AM
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Default Shooting .38 Special in older Smiths.

In an older "Rifles Handloader" Gil Sengel had an article about loading original .38 special and shooting it in a pair of 1905 S&W's.He stated that he cast his bullets to a hardness of 6-7 Brinnell and suggested that hard cast bullets could be the cause of these revolvers breaking while loading fast burning powders.
You guys that actually load for and shoot your older K frames just what do you use and why?
I know about the heat treated guns and I would never use jacketed in my old revolvers but if you shoot yours frequently what do you think of Mr. Sengel's assessment?
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:30 AM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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I use soft swaged or cast bullets. How did the author define "breaking"? Was he talking about blown cylinders and bent top straps? I would think that could result from double charges of fast powder, like Bullseye.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:44 AM
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His assessments are as good as any and better than most.
Lead , soft cast or factory swaged , avoid jacketed and as for powders,
the amount is more important than the speed. A light charge of Bullseye (2.7 grains) with a swaged lead HBWC (148 grain) will do no damage to revolvers made after 1900, the approx. transition time from black powder to smokeless. If in good sound condition of course !
Black powder era revolvers should not be shot with smokeless powder hand loads...just don't go there.
Stay with the mid range 38 special loadings , NO max and +P loads !
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 08-10-2018 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:50 AM
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I think his breaking definition was in fact blown cylinders but especially splitting of the frame below the barrel.He even went as far to say that many of the supposed overloads were in fact due to this choice of bullet hardness and the form of rifling in the older revolvers.
I have yet to read anything by Mr. Sengel that was not full of insight.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:04 PM
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Depends on what you mean by hard cast bullets. I wouldn't be afraid to use any normal cast bullet appropriate for normal .38 Special loads. Bullets in the 6-7 Brinnell range are almost pure lead and able to be deformed under finger pressure. Bullets in the 10-12 range will work just fine and not hurt anything assuming you are using appropriate loads. It also depends on which 1905's you're talking about. This model was made from 1905 to 1942. I'd be more conservative if loading for one produced in 1905-1920 vs later production ones.

When I think of "Hard Cast" bullets I think of bullets in the 18-22 range. These aren't ideal for any 38 Special loads and are more appropriate for .357 loads.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:41 PM
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Thanks for the reply's!I'll just keep shooting swaged bullets in mine.He did state that he had pulled a lot of bullets from older loads and they were pure lead and the rifling of the early guns was cut for pure lead.He was adding just enough tin to get his cast bullets to fill out in the mold and they still ran 6 to 7 Brinnell.
I did notice also he did not use Bullseye except in lightweight bullets or wadcutters and then the loads were light.He instead used SR4756,AAC-5,Blue Dot ,HS-6 and IMR-4227 to reach the safe velocities and pressure of the loadings of the past.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
...Black powder era revolvers should not be shot with smokeless powder hand loads...just don't go there.

Stay with the mid range 38 special loadings , NO max and +P loads ...
I'm confused by these two seemingly contradictory statements.

Don't the majority of recipes for "mid range 38 special loadings" use smokeless powder? Black powder load data is pretty scarce....
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:06 PM
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While I do not have a circa 1905 .38 Spl I do shoot a model 10 that dates from 1954 and a Python born in 1956.They both only see soft cast loads(Aprox 8BHN)at low pressure standard .38 handloads and with relatively light bullets at that.Heavy loads are saved for my modern 357s and .38s.
After all an old gun just like an old lady deserves respect!
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:15 PM
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I shoot my .38 M&P Model of 1899 with swaged lead bullets and HP-38 powder (same as W231). I've gotten best results with 3.4 grains and a 158 grain SWC bullet. This is well below maximum; lighter loads get the gun dirty and gummy very fast due to poor sealing of the case to the cylinder wall at low pressure. I've also used some swaged 148 grain HBWC's with 3.2 grains HP-38. I've heard that the reason for not using hard bullets has to do with cracking of the forcing cone, not blown up cylinders.

My gun was shipped in December 1899 and still shoots well. The .38 Special was introduced that year as a black powder cartridge, but smokeless loads came out the same year (I believe). Note that S&W didn't approve any of their revolvers for smokeless loads until 1909! I've never been able to find out why.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
I'm confused by these two seemingly contradictory statements.

Don't the majority of recipes for "mid range 38 special loadings" use smokeless powder? Black powder load data is pretty scarce....
He was making two different statements.

First was a general warning for any black powder gun, no smokeless at all

Second was related to the original post, the Bullseye Wadcutter load is safe for early smokeless 38 Special S&W K-frames.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
Thanks for the reply's!I'll just keep shooting swaged bullets in mine.He did state that he had pulled a lot of bullets from older loads and they were pure lead and the rifling of the early guns was cut for pure lead.He was adding just enough tin to get his cast bullets to fill out in the mold and they still ran 6 to 7 Brinnell.
I did notice also he did not use Bullseye except in lightweight bullets or wadcutters and then the loads were light.He instead used SR4756,AAC-5,Blue Dot ,HS-6 and IMR-4227 to reach the safe velocities and pressure of the loadings of the past.
How old is this load data? Anyone using Blue Dot or IMR-4227 for light .38 Special loads is crazy in my book. You'll have to shake out all the unburned gun powder between each reload when using those powders. When using recently made gun powder it's best to use current reload data. Light loads of Bullseye are going to be way more appropriate than any extremely slow handgun powder. The manufacturers of those powders don't even have any load data for .38 Special and those powders because there are probably dozens of other powders out there that are better options.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:12 PM
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Milder lead bullet loads of any fast to medium burning rate powders will be satisfactory in any K-frame, old or new. I don't see that the lead hardness would have much of anything to do with their safety. Sharpe's reloading manual of 1937 was recommending .38 Special loads which are about the same as those recommended today. And there were far more old S&W revolvers around in 1937 than there are today. For any recreational shooting with a .38 Special I use only lead bullets.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
I think his breaking definition was in fact blown cylinders but especially splitting of the frame below the barrel.He even went as far to say that many of the supposed overloads were in fact due to this choice of bullet hardness and the form of rifling in the older revolvers.
I have yet to read anything by Mr. Sengel that was not full of insight.
I highly doubt cast bullet hardness will cause a blown cylinder, it just doesn't cause that problem. Softer bullets are kinder to the barrel and rifling and that's what I mostly use in older revolvers along with W231.

There are a few contradictions in this thread. I would not believe what people tell you, research it for yourself for safety.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:49 PM
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Default I've shot everything in my model 10....

Mouse poots, barn burners, max hot loads from a long time ago, every style of bullet, both factory and reloaded.

Not only did I give out before the gun did. The model 10 did not even breath hard.

I was working up toward max on a load with Unique that was a full grain over what is generally recommended nowadays. I got about halfway there and thought that the loads were a little raucous and backed down a couole of tenths of a grain. I'm sure I could have carried right on up if I felt like it was necessary for what I was doing. (I experiment a lot)

The old K frames were well built and plenty strong for their purpose. I've never heard of one just giving out with some kind of major abuse.
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Old 08-12-2018, 01:38 PM
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I could see a concern with hard cast and jackets rounds cracking the forcing cone, as my pre 1920s K frames don't have much of a "cone".

I have gone to 4 grains of Unique, with 148 HBWCs for pre WWII K Frames and 5 grains of Unique with 158 SWCs for later K Frames.

At one time I used 4.5 grains, before I acquired a few elderly K Frames.

Your Firearm and loading techniques differ, so dont take my data as gospel.

Last edited by bulletslap; 08-12-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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