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  #1  
Old 11-27-2014, 06:37 AM
Buckey08 Buckey08 is offline
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Default Flat base/Hollow base

Need to buy some 124 grain 9mm bullets for reloading this winter and not sure which to buy, Is there any real difference in the two designs? Thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2014, 07:44 AM
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I can't help you with your question but it is kismet that this came across my feed this morning:

It looks like a prototype flat nosed hollow base but at $75/1000? Hard to turn down!

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14...pe_1000ct.aspx
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Old 11-27-2014, 08:55 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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With many plated bullet suppliers the hollow base design indicates a Heavy Plate bullet capable of withstanding velocities up to 1500 fps. I think it started with Berry's Heavy Plate Hollow Base line of bullets but currently Extreme also offers a Heavy Plate in their Hollow Points and a limited selection of Heavy Plate Hollow Base bullets.

Pluses for the hollow base design specifically is it allows a longer bullet length for a specific weight and that should reduce the drag a bit and allow the bullet to be a bit more stable in flight.

Extreme is currently offering a 15% off Black Friday sale and I plan on picking up some of their 158 grain Heavy Plate hollow points specifically to try out in my Rossi M92. With a measured velocity of 1600 fps with the 158 grain Hornady XTP I know I'll be exceeding the rated speed of 1500 fps for these bullets but the operation pressure of this load is low enough that they just may work fine. If so, I will have a much less expensive option to the 20 cent each XTP's I've been shooting. Note, just mounted a Scout Scope on the Rossi so I'll be able to compare accuracy results and really see how the Extreme HP hold up as a high velocity practice bullet.
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:10 AM
Huskerguy Huskerguy is offline
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I posted this same question sometime back in another forum. The consensus was the hollow base does provide slightly better accuracy at least in pepple's minds. With average shooting skills I probably wont see much difference. I do like the heavier plating which allows you to push them which I do not do. I also find that I plunk test each bullet shape to fit my CZ which you may want to do as well. While it would be nice to pick a bullet and stick with it, there are deals to be had which causes me to rethink and remeasure. You wont go wrong either way but unless you test side by side with all the same variables you wont know.
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:56 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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I think what the real problem with the 9mm/357sig crowd is the firearms they're using themselves. There's such a wide verity of rates of twists in the bbl's between different mfg's. Couple that with the different types of riflings & the # of lands in the different bbl's along with the huge difference in bbl diameters.

Basically these things are all over the map.

I like what berry's is trying to do. It's a well thought out attempt to make a 1 size fits all bullet. The hollow base will do 2 things:
Help form a seal in the huge differences (.354 to .357) of the bbl's.
Make the bullet's body longer (more surface area) which is better for stabilizing in all the rates of twist.
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Old 11-28-2014, 04:19 AM
Buckey08 Buckey08 is offline
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Was thinking more along the lines of a real full metal jacket and not plated bullet, They seem to be about the same price if you look hard.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:09 AM
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I don't think a FMJ bullet that has a hollow base would offer any real advantage.

The main reason for lead hollow base bullets was for use in revolvers, especially those with throats that do not match the bore. Some of the 2nd and 3rd generation Colt SA's are an example. The hollow base allows the bullet base to slightly expand or contract as needed, providing a better fit in out of spec guns, resulting in better accuracy and less leading. They have also been very popular in 38 spl wadcutter target loadings for the same reason.

I don't know a 9mm would have the energy to expand a hollow base FMJ bullet enough to take advantage of this design, especially considering there is no cylinder throat variations consider.

Larry

Last edited by Fishinfool; 11-28-2014 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:59 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
I don't think a FMJ bullet that has a hollow base would offer any real advantage.

The main reason for lead hollow base bullets was for use in revolvers, especially those with throats that do not match the bore. Some of the 2nd and 3rd generation Colt SA's are an example. The hollow base allows the bullet base to slightly expand or contract as needed, providing a better fit in out of spec guns, resulting in better accuracy and less leading. They have also been very popular in 38 spl wadcutter target loadings for the same reason.

I don't know a 9mm would have the energy to expand a hollow base FMJ bullet enough to take advantage of this design, especially considering there is no cylinder throat variations consider.

Larry

Interesting???

They actually made hb bullets for several different reasons. But you're own example is a good one. Like the "old colts"/38s&w revolvers, the 9mm's are all over the place. US mfg's tend to use slower trist bbl's (around 1 in 16) & the euro mfg's tend to use faster twist bbls (around 1 in 10). Couple that with the different bbl diameters. Allot of the mass produced euro bbl's are slugging out large and end up using .357/.358 cast bullets.

So in the end the 9mm bbl's are running .004" in difference just like the "old colts".

As far as pressure goes, the "old colts" used a cartridge with a max chamber pressure of 14,500psi and the 9mm has a max chamber pressure of 35,000psi. Why would a 14,500psi cartridge be able to use/expand a hb bullet and a 35,000psi cartridge not be able to????

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I've played around with a couple hb bullets and have a basic understanding of how/why they were designed and used. After casting and swaging them for a couple decades I've ended up with a guess what could be called an average collection of hb molds. As of today I cast hb bullets for:
45acp 4x
44spl/mag 3x
41mag 1x
38spl/357 4x
9mm 2x
32s&w 1x

HB bullets do extremely well in the 9mm, here's a 110gr bh bullet that I use in the 9mm that will cross the T's & dot the I's @ 25yds.



On a side note:
A winter project this year for the 9mm that I'm going to do is with of all things, a 38s&w bullet mold that was origionally designed for those "old colts". Ideal mold co had a 35870 mold listed in their 1897 catalog. It's a 150gr hb bullet for the 38s&w. A link to a ideal 1897 catalog.

1897 Ideal Molds

I already have a mold to cast 150gr hb rn bullets. They are the bullets in the center.



The ideal bullet/mold is an excellent choice for a hb rn 9mm bullet. It's 1/8" shorter than the raphine bullet pictured above and I can easily make any size/shape hb pin for the ideal mold. I plan on making a pin that will allow for thicker walls (higher pressures) and have a target weight of 147gr.



Anyway, there are huge advantages to hb bullets. I'm glad to see them starting to be used more.
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Old 11-28-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey08 View Post
Was thinking more along the lines of a real full metal jacket and not plated bullet, They seem to be about the same price if you look hard.
You are indeed fortunate. Even with the Black Friday sales, Gunboat can't seem to find 124 grain Full Metal Jacket for less than $0.13 per.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2014, 01:46 PM
M&PUSER M&PUSER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey08 View Post
Need to buy some 124 grain 9mm bullets for reloading this winter and not sure which to buy, Is there any real difference in the two designs? Thanks
Try them both.
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2014, 05:14 PM
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Forrest r-

Thank you for your comments. The original poster stated he wanted FMJ hollow base bullets, hence my statement I didn't think that type of bullet would expand at the base to seal the bore. I am sure a cast or swaged lead bullet, such as you use, would, as would a lead plated bullet others are talking about.

Larry
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Old 11-30-2014, 01:29 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
Forrest r-

Thank you for your comments. The original poster stated he wanted FMJ hollow base bullets, hence my statement I didn't think that type of bullet would expand at the base to seal the bore. I am sure a cast or swaged lead bullet, such as you use, would, as would a lead plated bullet others are talking about.

Larry

I understand larry, he needs to take a good hard look at the fmj/jacketed bullets. The fmj/jacketed bullets with the open bases (lead exposed) are a type of hb bullet. The plain based jacketed bullets & the tmj's (total metal jackets) act like a gc'd (gas checked) bullet and can expand only so far. The fmj's with the exposed lead bases actually have the lead above the bottom edge of the copper jacket. That little copper lip has the ability to expand/flare out to seal the bores the same way a lead hb bullet does.

That's why these types of bullets do so well in a wide verity of firearm.

Myself, I prefer the lead/coated bullets due to cost & velocity gain for the same load.

I've swaged bullets since the 80's & it doesn't take much effort/pressure to swage/press/form jacketed bullets. Using nothing but an old rcbs (finely replaced the ram this year) and old herter's 9-ton presses I've swaged 1000's of bullets. It's nothing to bump a bullet up or down .005 or .006.

Something to think about:
The origional 45acp ball ammo was designed in 1911 (fa 8 11) with 14,000psi. They changed the pressure to around 18,000psi in 1921 but still kept/used the same bullet (230gr ball) and speeds of the original (around 850fps) 1911 load.
Did they up the pressure of the 45acp ammo to aid in reliability/accuracy of the pistols (1917) they commissioned that used the same 45acp ammo and found that the bores/cylinders were all over the map (.452 to .457)???
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Old 11-30-2014, 11:06 AM
zeke zeke is offline
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The most accurate 115 grain jacketed bullet tried so far is Win 115 fmjhb, as was used in their Q4172 9mm ammunition. Tried reloading the bullet after trying the Win factory load, and finding it extremely accurate in every 9mm owned.

The 115 Win fmjhb allows the bullet to be seated out further, while increasing the neck tension. Firmly believe it also allows the base of the bullet to expand to better fit the bore, if using a faster powder at higher pressure. The lead hollow base on the Win bullet is exposed.

Course any discussion may depend on what specific bullet is being inquired about, as differing bullets may have differing construction for differing reasons. Some slightly dished out fully jacketed bullets may not offer the same advantages.

Generally speaking hollow based bullets have long been used to expand to fit the bores of pistols/rifles. A lot of 9mm bores are oversized, and better suited to oversized lead bullets if that be your preference over jacketed.
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Old 11-30-2014, 11:29 AM
ironhead7544 ironhead7544 is offline
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You will have to try it in your pistols. There are a lot of variations even in the same model of pistol. When it comes to handloads, almost nothing is written in stone.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:25 AM
Buckey08 Buckey08 is offline
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Thank You , now I have something to think about today other then how to make a 20 something do some work.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:41 PM
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Default 9mm HB/WC

I'm a wheel gun man. I have 1 centerfire auto pistol. The only
reason I still have it is it's the most accurate 9 I've ever shot.
It's a Browning HP Comp. model. I bought dies and have been
trying to come up with cast bullet for it. I have many 357 molds
and couple old Ideals for 38sw. I can't get any of them to shoot
even as good as FMJ. I don't have HB/WC mold, have been
looking for one for K-38. Shot some store bought ones, very
nice. Anybody had cast bullet success with Browning HP?
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Old 12-17-2014, 08:05 AM
zeke zeke is offline
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Have very limited experience with shooting cast in 9mm, and specifically the BHP. Had to clean up the bore real good, and used a .357 125 rnfp at a higher pressure.

The lrnfp was the design that extended the nose of the bullet out gradually, instead of the blunter version. Believe they were Magnus bullets, and hard cast.
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Old 12-17-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckey08 View Post
Need to buy some 124 grain 9mm bullets for reloading this winter and not sure which to buy, Is there any real difference in the two designs? Thanks
Had the same question and have both Remington FMJ and Winchester FMJFB loads with AA#7 and VV N340 sitting on my bench for the next range session.

I doubt that I can tell the difference accuracy wise between the bullets but I have a cranky Hi-Power that I would like to find more than one load that it will shoot with.

.41 cal
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