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  #1  
Old 11-22-2013, 01:01 AM
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Default How NOT to reload...Kaboom!

A friend passed this one along...his acquaintance was working up a .460 Rowland load using Unique. He did not have a single published load with this powder, so went on his own. The frame and slide are from a Glock 21 with a .460 Rowland conversion. Here is what 13 grains of Unique can do:


I ran the load through my Quickload software, but used .45 ACP as there is no Rowland data in this program. In a .45 ACP case with a 230 grain FMJ, 13 grains of Unique generate over 111,000 PSI! Now the Rowland case is 1/16th inch longer and dimensionally different, but not that different.

Word to the wise...use published loads.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:05 AM
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So this it actually 3rd hand information? Can it be verified because I'm thinking 111,000 PSI would do a lot more damage to any handgun than we see there.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:10 AM
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I'll run the numbers again...stand by.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:12 AM
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Okay, here is the data for 13 grains Unique using a .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING: Table produced by not verified Ballistics Calculations! Check results
always against loading data of current reloading manuals! Input data and results
may be invalid or wrong! The use of this data for loading ammunition can cause,
directly or indirectly, serious injury to personnel and material. No responsibi-
lity is implied and THE USER MUST ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK OF USING THE DATA.
QuickLOAD© V.3.4 Interior BallisticsV.3.4 #530606
© Copyright 1987-2008 - H.Broemel, Babenhausen, Germany
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Case capacity and propellant properties may vary considerably from lot to lot!

**** Input data: Date: 21-Nov-2013 Time: 22:10:41
Cartridge................. = .45 Auto +P (ACP) (SAAMI)
Projectile type........... = .451, 230, Sierra FPJ RN Match 8815 with flatbase

Max.avg.pressure(Piezo SAA)= 23000 psi Shot start / init pressure = 2176 psi
Projectile weight (gr)= 230 Groove caliber (in)= 0.451
Length of cartridge (in)= 1.275 Length of case (in)= 0.898
Case capacity(Grains Water)= 25.00 Length of projectile (in)= 0.655
Length of barrel (in)= 5.000
**** Values calculated:
Seating depth (in)= 0.278 Volume displaced (gn H2O)= 11.24
Comb.chamber volume(gn H2O)= 13.76 Projectile travel (in)= 4.380
**** Input data:
Propellant type........... = Alliant UNIQUE
Charge weight..........(gr)= 13.0 Load density......(g/cu.cm)= 0.943
Heat of Explosion (cal/lb)= 492949 Ratio of spec. heats cp/cv = 1.222
Solid density (gr/cu.in)= 412.2 Weighting factor...........= 0.8
Burning rate factor Ba(1/s)= 2.35 Pro-/degressivity factor a = 6.000
Burning limit ......... z1 = 0.2 Combust.Chamber Vb(ft³)= 3.154282E-5
Factor.................. b = 1.612 X-S.Area of Bore A(ft²)= 1.090312E-3
Bulk density (gr/cu.in)= 150.0 Projectile mass mp (lb)= 3.285714E-2
Loading ratio (%)= 159.0 Projectile travel x(ft)= 3.649934E-1

**** Results calculated:
Maximum pressure ........ = 111587 psi Way of projectile at Pmax = 0.12 in
Muzzle velocity ......Ve = 1590 fps Muzzle pressure .......Pe = 5320 psi
Project. energy at muzzle = 1292 ft.lbs Fraction of powder burnt = 100 %
Projectile travel time from 10% Pmax to muzzle = 0.32 ms

D A N G E R: Load exceeds Maximum Average Pressure ! DO NOT USE THIS LOAD !
Real maximum of pressure inside barrel.
End of combustion before the projectile passes muzzle.

Last edited by DR505; 11-22-2013 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:16 AM
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Mind you, in a .460 Rowland the pressure would be different as the case dimensions are different, but not by a huge margin. The pressure would be less than in a .45 ACP case, but I can't imagine it would be tremendously different...even at 50% of this PSI it would be too hot.

Dropping to 12 grains the pressure drops to 86,000 psi. (again, .45 ACP case)

I've got the forwarded e-mail from the original experimenter, so third hand yes, but original info. I also wonder if his metering was off...a 1 grain difference is ~25,000 psi at that level (according to Quickload) in a .45 ACP. Quite a difference there.

Last edited by DR505; 11-22-2013 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:11 AM
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So did he just plug 13gr in or work up to it? I have reloaded several wildcats, no data. You just have to go slow & watch for rpessure signs, take measurements in vel & case head. Sounds/looks like he was taking a few short cuts. Good old Darwin still lives.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:28 AM
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Very impressed that the Glock was not a collection of splinters after being subjected to such a overload.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:24 AM
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Those with access to pressure equipment warn over and over that "pressure signs" are unreliable in straight-walled pistol cases, and it is possible to get 50%+ overpressure with NO pressure signs on the fired cartridge.
In fact, it is common that the first visible "pressure sign" is pieces hitting the ceiling!

BUT SO MANY PEOPLE KNOW BETTER AND TRY IT ANYWAY
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:17 PM
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This is why they print loading manuals.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:28 PM
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This makes little sense to me (if it is supposed to, that is) - someone who is experienced enough to have a custom caliber conversion unit on their pistol, and has a reloading setup (at least to the point of being able to weigh powder charges and assemble complete rounds) uses enough Unique to blow up their gun? Did they just fill the case to capacity? Frightening.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:35 PM
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So now that he is able to get inside that gun to clean it...........
who is going to put it back together again ?

Can you believe that...!!!

WOW!!
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:39 PM
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Wow... is the shooter OK ? hand nerve damage ?
Those plastic guns hold up pretty good
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
This is why they print loading manuals.
Exactly! I prefer to let others blow their guns up and learn from them.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
So this it actually 3rd hand information? Can it be verified because I'm thinking 111,000 PSI would do a lot more damage to any handgun than we see there.
Sometime it's good to just believe what someone says, instead of challenging everything...
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
Those with access to pressure equipment warn over and over that "pressure signs" are unreliable in straight-walled pistol cases, and it is possible to get 50%+ overpressure with NO pressure signs on the fired cartridge.
In fact, it is common that the first visible "pressure sign" is pieces hitting the ceiling!

BUT SO MANY PEOPLE KNOW BETTER AND TRY IT ANYWAY
I groan every time some well-meaning post-writer advises a pistol or revolver hand-loader to "start low and watch for signs of pressure". WHAT SIGNS????????

Last edited by Warren Sear; 11-23-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:47 PM
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If you are going to put 13 grains of Unique in anything make sure it's a rifle or maybe a Ruger Redhawk, but the first question should be why?
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:03 PM
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I don't want to bad mouth your friend but what the blazes was he thinking? Is this the way he reloads everything? If you are truly his friend then buy him a manual for Christmas!
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2013, 03:06 PM
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Obviously this was caused by
using TightGroup,
a malfunctioning powder measeure,
using cast lead bullets in polygonal rifling,
firing a round with a bullet stuck in the bore,
and because the ammo wasn't loaded on a Smurf press.
or
by using cheap Chinese ammo

we don't care about the facts
did I miss anything ?
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:58 PM
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All very interesting, but how many of you are really more interested in what the velocity of the bullet was?
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:10 PM
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Think it can be repaired under warranty
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:31 PM
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Clark Custom Guns does the conversions and also has some loading data, but none with Unique! 460 Rowland Reloading Data Chart Information

The max pressure is 40,000 cup, but that isn't SAAMI pressure.
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:47 PM
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cprher: I believe MV was 1590 in the 45ACP with 13 gr unique. 700NE energy figures are fun facts, though I will never own/shoot one. Be Safe,
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Old 11-22-2013, 05:38 PM
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Smyrna called. Gaston wants your friend to give him all the glocks back...
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:15 PM
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That is definitely not "working up."
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockets View Post
Wow... is the shooter OK ? hand nerve damage ?
Those plastic guns hold up pretty good
Apparently his hand stung quite a bit, but no permanent damage. Very Lucky.

I believe he started at 8 grains and was working his way up, looking for "pressure signs", when it blew. I have no idea regarding his reloading experience, but he did say he never found reload data for Unique prior to his experimentation. I also believe he was using 1 grain increments!
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:39 PM
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DARWINISM!!
But not eliminated from the gene pool. Still able to breed and pass along to the next generation the ability to do dumb ***** things in the future.
Fortunately, Homo Sapiens learn from their mistakes and do not repeat them.....if they have a modicum of intelligence.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
I believe he started at 8 grains and was working his way up, looking for "pressure signs", when it blew.

"HERE'S YOUR SIGN!"

Sorry, I couldn't help it.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:28 AM
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That should buff right out.
If not, I'd be interested in buying the remains to use in one of my lectures.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
So this it actually 3rd hand information? Can it be verified because I'm thinking 111,000 PSI would do a lot more damage to any handgun than we see there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
Sometime it's good to just believe what someone says, instead of challenging everything...
Well, I'm not surprised...one individual claimed I was not LE simply because I said I liked to carry a wheel gun! He said I'm probably just some guys who likes to carry and is a poseur, not a LEO. That kind of stuff does not bother me. I'm well past that.

As far as this guy who blew up his Glock, I don't know him from Adam; but a very good friend of mine, who is quite an accomplished reloader and long range shooter, passed this info to me. He forwarded the e-mail and redacted all identifiers.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:56 AM
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Project Gun for Sale. Shot OK last time it was fired!

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
cprher: I believe MV was 1590 in the 45ACP with 13 gr unique. 700NE energy figures are fun facts, though I will never own/shoot one. Be Safe,
That's a pretty good muzzle velocity, though it is only a single shot pistol.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:41 AM
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I think the term "single shot pistol" has gained a new meaning.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
I groan every time some well-meaning post-writer advises a revolver hand-loader to "start low and watch for signs of pressure". WHAT SIGNS????????
Sticky extraction and case head expansion. Covered in my reloading manuals...
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrash View Post
I think the term "single shot pistol" has gained a new meaning.
I think the term "hand grenade" has gained a new meaning.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
Sticky extraction and case head expansion. Covered in my reloading manuals...
You are making the very common error of applying rifle loading procedures to handguns. Read your manuals again.

I will add that if you get sticky extraction from a bolt action rifle, you are way over pressure (over 65,000 psi?). If you are getting it in a handgun, those loads are flat out hazardous. In this case, the shooter in the OP was shooting the loads in a semi-auto pistol, so he had no way to determine what the extraction was like.

Case head expansion only applies to new cases, and only comes into play, again, at rifle pressures. If you are getting those indications in a pistol or revolver, you are WAY over pressure.

"Reading primers"? Don't even get me started!

When I first started re-loading I wrecked a brand new Model 19. I followed the data on the old (and foolishly high) Speer manual, all while watching carefully for "signs of pressure", as advised in the manual. By the time I noticed them, the forcing cone on my gun was split and the cylinder bulged.

There is no reliable, objective method to determine pressure for the typical handgun re-loader, and it chaps my --- to see the constant admonitions to "watch for pressure signs" in regard to pistols and revolvers. There are no indications until you are way over the line.

Get your data from a reliable source and adhere to it closely, including overall cartridge length. Get a chronograph, and if you are getting higher speeds than factory ammo, you are over pressure.

Last edited by Warren Sear; 11-23-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:42 PM
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Default Hmmmm?

Howdy,
I'm glad no one was hurt.
I've found that in a purpose built (PURPOSE BUILT) 1911 in .45 acp things start to get really hairy around the 9 grain of Unique mark w/230 grain cast bullets. I'd say somewhere around the 300-400 round mark it knocked the lugs out of soft, Argentine slide and I put the project to rest.
I can't imagine 13 grains. I can tell you that has to be a lot of power.
God bless the experimenters, it's how we learn things.
Thanks for the pictures.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR505 View Post
A friend passed this one along...his acquaintance was working up a .460 Rowland load using Unique. He did not have a single published load with this powder, so went on his own. The frame and slide are from a Glock 21 with a .460 Rowland conversion. Here is what 13 grains of Unique can do:


I ran the load through my Quickload software, but used .45 ACP as there is no Rowland data in this program. In a .45 ACP case with a 230 grain FMJ, 13 grains of Unique generate over 111,000 PSI! Now the Rowland case is 1/16th inch longer and dimensionally different, but not that different.

Word to the wise...use published loads.
I load 460 Rowland for my Sig 1911 Scorpion. I can tell you that Clark Customs will not make a 460 Rowland conversion for any auto other than a select few 1911's. They do this because the barrel of a 1911 comes out the front. They cannot attach a compensator to a barrel that comes out the back like in standard autos and warn that it is just plain dangerous. His first mistake was trying 460 Rowland in a glock. Looking at the pictures it seems as if he has a threaded barrel, not a compensated barrel. Here is what a good one looks like (mine)





I am not sure how he got an uncompensated barrel chambered in 460 Rowland, or if he had someone bore the chamber down 1/16th of an inch. Aside from all that, I only use published data, and never buy plastic guns.
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:58 PM
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I just don't understand the mentality of seeing how fast someone can make a bullet go in a certain caliber. I like to shoot my brass and reload them as many times as possible. If you are hotrodding your loads at the max or above you are not going to get many reloads from them. I guess its the same mentality of driving your car at top speed. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
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Old 11-23-2013, 03:37 PM
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I just don't understand the mentality of seeing how fast someone can make a bullet go in a certain caliber. I like to shoot my brass and reload them as many times as possible. If you are hotrodding your loads at the max or above you are not going to get many reloads from them. I guess its the same mentality of driving your car at top speed. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I did mine for hog hunting, because I didnt want to carry a 629 or a 460S&W. This way I can use a 10 round mag, so I get 10 +1 instead of 6.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:02 PM
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I did mine for hog hunting, because I didnt want to carry a 629 or a 460S&W. This way I can use a 10 round mag, so I get 10 +1 instead of 6.
But were you hot-rodding it, or loading to within industry specs? The .460 Rowland, as designed, is perfect for hog hunting. No need to load it to dangerous pressure levels.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:13 PM
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That guy is lucky he has all his bodily parts, wow.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:23 PM
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DR505-

I read, and re-read your OP. One thing that caught my attention right away was the weight of the charge. I realize you are passing just on what you received, but that said, it didn't sound right to me after using Unique for 25+ years in my .45's. My standard load is 7.5 grains under a 200 cast H&G #68 swc. That load fills the case to just about the base when seated normally for functioning in a 1911.

So.... I just went and pulled out some once fired W-W cases that haven't been re-sized yet. 13 grains filled them flush to the mouth, and even after some good tamping on the bench top they were only 1/16" below flush. Now, taking into consideration the slight added length of the Rowland case and figuring in that your friends friend may have tamped the snot out of his loads, I just don't see how he could seat that bullet to the proper COAL without a majorly compressed load resulting from doing so. Even then, I'm not sure he could seat the bullet correctly. If he did/could, it seems like he would have to have a barrel that has a longer throat and single feed his ammo. any way to get more info from your contact?
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DR505 View Post
But were you hot-rodding it, or loading to within industry specs? The .460 Rowland, as designed, is perfect for hog hunting. No need to load it to dangerous pressure levels.
I load to industry specs. I use data from hodgen data center for loads using Longshot and Clark Customs data for loads using AA No 5. There is no need to hotrod it. It is already 1500 fps with 1,000 ft/lbs energy. If I want more than that Ill use my 7mm Rem Mag.


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Old 11-23-2013, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun View Post
DR505-

I read, and re-read your OP. One thing that caught my attention right away was the weight of the charge. I realize you are passing just on what you received, but that said, it didn't sound right to me after using Unique for 25+ years in my .45's. My standard load is 7.5 grains under a 200 cast H&G #68 swc. That load fills the case to just about the base when seated normally for functioning in a 1911.

So.... I just went and pulled out some once fired W-W cases that haven't been re-sized yet. 13 grains filled them flush to the mouth, and even after some good tamping on the bench top they were only 1/16" below flush. Now, taking into consideration the slight added length of the Rowland case and figuring in that your friends friend may have tamped the snot out of his loads, I just don't see how he could seat that bullet to the proper COAL without a majorly compressed load resulting from doing so. Even then, I'm not sure he could seat the bullet correctly. If he did/could, it seems like he would have to have a barrel that has a longer throat and single feed his ammo. any way to get more info from your contact?
Just an observation from one of my posts. I do not beleive that Glock was chambered in 460 Rowland ( based on the non- comp barrel) the ONLY place I know of that will even sell a 460 kit for a glock is 460rowland.com. I got my 1911 kit at Clark Customs and called them. They said it is very dangerous to buy the other kits due to the barrel coming out the back, unlike the 1911. I think this thread is a case of either hotrodding 45 ACP or stuck projectile in barrel from squib load, or over use of 45 Super. I would like to see a pic of the barrel where the caliber is stamped to prove it was 460R.

OP: Might I suggest gaining more information from the person this happened to? I am not sure if anyone noticed, but that is not a Glock Slide in the picture. It is an aftermarket LoneWolf Slide, and based on the barrel, an aftermarket LoneWolf Barrel as well. LoneWolf does not make 460 Rowland barrels and the slide can be identified by the serrations in the sides and on the front. Gen 1- Gen 4 Glock slides have vertical serrations in the back only, and reserve the forward portion of the slide for their engraving of "Glock 21" etc. I am certain the frame is a glock frame, as the part number on the trigger bar matches a glock trigger bar part number. This may have even been a catastrophic failure of an aftermarket barrel and slide. I am not trying to blow holes in the whole story, but as a previous poster has said, there is no way you can physically fit 13 grains of Unique in a 460 Rowland case and still be able to seat a bullet to a maximum 1.270 COL and still be able to chamber it, as it will headspace on the rim.

I realize you can only pass on the information in the manner in which you received it, and that is difficult to answer questions about someone elses mess. It is just that these kind of things require accurate information, otherwise things like Glock, 460 Rowland, and others get a bad name. The issue here could really be aftermarket gun parts, or a moron at a reloading bench.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:02 PM
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Tupperware is for food storage.

The only Tupperware guns I've owned were 9mm and .380.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
I groan every time some well-meaning post-writer advises a pistol or revolver hand-loader to "start low and watch for signs of pressure". WHAT SIGNS????????
Tougher to see on semiauto rounds, but pressure signs are there. Look for case head/breech face markings, extractor markings, primer condition, even how far the case is thrown from the gun in relation to factory ammo is a sign. Definitive, no, but there. If you have an accurate micrometer, you can also measure case head expansion, again compared to factory rounds.
For the guys saying pressure signs are only readable with rifle rounds, you would be wrong. The same pressure signs are viable for handguns. The brass case is designe to withstand a certain pressure level. Get sticky extraction in a revolver, you are over pressure for that revolver. The case heads getting torn up on a semi, you are probably over pressure there too. It's nice to say stick to book loads but then what do the wildcat reloaders do? Yeah, we use a chrono & watch for pressure signs.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:53 PM
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Here is a bit from the e-mail:

Quote:
.. a Glock 21 frame with Lone Wolf slide and Lone Wolf .45 barrel reamed out for .460 Rowland. For background, .460 Rowland looks like .45 ACP, but the brass is 1/16" longer and stronger; the round is designed to have the muzzle energy of a .44 Magnum.
C-17, very perceptive! So the question then...did the loader actually get up to 13 grains prior to mishap? And who would ream a barrel designed for a 21,000 psi round to one that generates so much more pressure?

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:33 PM
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I am perfectly happy that some idiot says he loaded 13 gr. of Unique in a 460 Rowland case. I agree with Gun4Fun that the case would barely hold that much Unique. I do actually load the .460 Rowland but I shoot it in a 625 with the cylinder chambers reamed to Rowland dimensions. The 625 is also Mag-Na-Ported which mitigates the punishment to the shooter.

There is a misconception apparent concerning what the Rowland is. It's true the brass is 1/16" longer than 45ACP brass. BUT, the COL of Rowland rounds is exactly the SAME as 45ACP!! The extra length of the brass is intended to prevent idiots from chambering the round in guns Clark Custom thinks might be dangerous.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
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Here is a bit from the e-mail:



C-17, very perceptive! So the question then...did the loader actually get up to 13 grains prior to mishap? And who would ream a barrel designed for a 21,000 psi round to one that generates so much more pressure?
Therin lies the problem. The 460 Rowland requires a ported barrel or a compensator, unless it is in a SW625 or Super Blackhawk. To give you an idea of the extra punishment the 1911 has to take, the kit came with a compensated barrel, a 24 lb recoil spring, a 2 piece guide rod, and a Wilson Combat Shok-buff. Most 460 Rowland rounds are listed to generate close to 39,000 but I don't have the equipment to measure that. I think a good "take away" from all of this is to modify guns only after extensive research, and then measure the amount of acceptable risk with those changes. Had the person who kaboom'd that glock done so...he may have gotten a ported barrel and stuck to listed loads. I understand why someone would want to work another powder ( as the only two powders published are Longshot and AA5), but at thise limits I wouldnt do it. Powder availibility is slim right now, as I just ran out of Longshot reloading my last 400 rounds of Rowland. I can wait until the right powder comes up again or buy factory rounds if I am that desperate. I am not on to risk my Sig Sauer on testing though, as the current setup set me back $1,600.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:10 PM
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I am perfectly happy that some idiot says he loaded 13 gr. of Unique in a 460 Rowland case. I agree with Gun4Fun that the case would barely hold that much Unique. I do actually load the .460 Rowland but I shoot it in a 625 with the cylinder chambers reamed to Rowland dimensions. The 625 is also Mag-Na-Ported which mitigates the punishment to the shooter.

There is a misconception apparent concerning what the Rowland is. It's true the brass is 1/16" longer than 45ACP brass. BUT, the COL of Rowland rounds is exactly the SAME as 45ACP!! The extra length of the brass is intended to prevent idiots from chambering the round in guns Clark Custom thinks might be dangerous.
Yes the COL is the same. It headspaces on the rim. That is why you cannot close the battery on a gun chambered in 45 ACP if you stick a 460 Rowland in the chamber. That is the intent with the 1/16 th of an inch, there is a youtube video done by John Rowland ( the creater of the round) that explains it very well. I almost 460R'd my 625-8, but ended up selling it and buying the Sig. With the revolver though you do not have to stick with the COL that us auto guys do. I have to use 1.270 as max so the rounds fit and feed. You can do this.....





With these....





I loaded these up, only to have to pull the ballistic tips out for them to feed. They work great and do enormous damage. Perfect for revolvers. You will notice they look very similar to the Hornady 460 SW rounds.

I know I have a bunch of posts int his thread, but the 460 Rowland is my favorite round, and is a blast to shoot
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