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Old 04-27-2015, 02:03 PM
tomtheturner tomtheturner is offline
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Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated?  
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Default Should I use these? Too much for plated?

I wanted some stout loads for a pre-27 3 1/2" that had just arrived. I loaded some .357 cases with a 158 grain Remington JHP & 14.8 gr of 2400, CCI 500 primer. Speer book says 1,265 out of a 6" barrel. I had prepared 250 cases, and ran low on the Remington bullet. I substituted a Rainier 158 gr. plated HP for the last 100 of the cartridges.

When I started shooting the plated bullets I discovered that I was spitting jacket fragments out the left side. My son dropped the revolver off at the gunsmith thinking the new to me gun was out of time, even though it seemed fine to me. The gunsmith said timing was perfect, and everything is OK.
He thought that I had used too heavy of a crimp, but he did not know they were plated bullets.

So, even though Rainier says jacketed bullet loading info. is fine, and just to use a slight roll crimp, which I did, it appears as if I may have gone over the "limit" with their plated bullets. I have never had a problem of any kind with their bullets using jacketed info, but I had never shot any this stout.

I have never ran into this before. Would you shoot the remaining bullets, or pull them???? I do have a Marlin I could shoot them in instead of a revolver.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:11 PM
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Well first of a plated bullet is not a Remington JHP.
Second Plated bullets use mid range of Jacketed loads.

Alliant lists your load of 14.8 as a MAX for a Speer GD which again is not you plated bullet.

So why are starting at the max rather than reducing the max by 10%??


I doubt you are exceeding the FPS in the short barrel but probably cracked through the plating with the crimp.

Plated bullets are not the best choice for wham bam full mag loads.

Reduce you powder charge and put a lighter crimp if using the same bullet.

If not switch to lead.

Shooting in a carbine will be worse, Pull the bullets and see if you cracked through the plating.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:15 PM
iouri iouri is offline
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Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated?  
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Not sure about revolver specifics (bullet entering forcing cone etc) but when I shot Xtreme plated 124 flat points out of my 357 Sig I didn't see any anomalies. They clocked close to 1300.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:16 PM
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Why take a chance pull them. Pulling them you can also look at the plating and see if your crimp is to tight. You might just be pushing them to hard. I sure someone will post that know more then me I just like to keep it on the safe side.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:38 PM
tomtheturner tomtheturner is offline
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Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated? Should I use these?  Too much for plated?  
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Rule 3: Thank you for your reply . . . Please note above that there are two bullets involved. One a Remington JHP, the other a Rainier Plated HP.

You assume that I have not shot that load with lower velocities, which I have. With both bullets. With no problems.

I pulled one of the bullets earlier, and the plating is not broken, or cracked. Just a mild little crease consistent with the slight roll crimp that I mentioned.


MAGLOAD: You are probably right. Just pull them. Just hated to have to do it. In 44 years of loading I have never had to pull a "batch."
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Old 04-27-2015, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtheturner View Post
Rule 3: Thank you for your reply . . . Please note above that there are two bullets involved. One a Remington JHP, the other a Rainier Plated HP.

You assume that I have not shot that load with lower velocities, which I have. With both bullets. With no problems.

I pulled one of the bullets earlier, and the plating is not broken, or cracked. Just a mild little crease consistent with the slight roll crimp that I mentioned.



MAGLOAD: You are probably right. Just pull them. Just hated to have to do it. In 44 years of loading I have never had to pull a "batch."
I do not think I "assumed anything" I can only go by what you wrote. You said you used x about of powder and "substituted" the Rainer for the Remington, I mention such in my post they are not the same bullet or construction.
You never mentioned working up a load, Regardless the Max load of 2400 is to much for the plated bullet.

You also said that Rainer says :"So, even though Rainier says jacketed bullet loading info. is fine"

They actually say:

"We recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load.
A slight roll or taper crimp may be used with our bullets.

Over-crimping plated bullets may result in decreased accuracy, and fragmentation of copper plating."
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:44 PM
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My experience with using plated bullets leads me to believe they are not as suitable as jacketed bullets.

Examples: Shooting plated .357 158 grain in my Marlin using seven grains of Unique does not produce the nice tight patterns that the Remington JSP does using 16 grains of H110.

In a 686 with the same load groups as close as 20' are not as tight as JHP's or JSP's bullets achieve.

In .38 special a 125 grain JSP shoots much tighter groups than a 125 or 158 plated bullet.

Finally I was testing AA 7 in a 9MM at various load levels with the 115 grain Rainier PHP.

After I was beyond the mid range of the load data the groups stated to open up.

So I believe that plated is best used in the 1000-1100 fps at most.

They are a great alternative to lead. Just use real jacketed bullets for the magnum loads.

BLM

Last edited by Bruce51; 04-27-2015 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:37 PM
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Probably over crimped, plating gets broken & starts coming off. Plated & jacketed are not plug & play.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:57 PM
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I personally do not care for plated bullets in revolvers at all.

Years ago when they first came out, Berrys had some decent plating (thickness) and I thought was better than Rainer.

Now there are a lot of them out their but I can't say as I don't use any of them, The plated became almost the price of FMJ bullets.

Now with the coated lead bullets I seen no reason to use plated in revolvers. They work OK in semi autos I suppose,
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Old 04-27-2015, 06:13 PM
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I don't think it's the speed that's causing your problems. I shoot 124gr 9mm plated out of a M&P at 1400 fps, no problem. I use the thick plated variety. If there was an accuracy problem I'd find out real quick in a match.
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Old 04-27-2015, 07:49 PM
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Right now my groups are pointing to Coated being just slightly better then plated. I will know better next month when I get my Ransom rest. My chrono says coated is around 50 fps faster with better ES of 43 and SD of 11 with my new 45 200gr RNFP Blue Bullets doing a avg of 973 fps. As per phone call with Berry I was told that any marking in the plating caused by crimps could effect accuracy.
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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I've pushed 158gr. plated SWC's and now 158gr. plated RNFP's (both from Xtreme) out a 4" 686 in the 1200+ fps range with no problems. When I started reloading one plated bullet site advised against splitting the copper plating as it could let the bullet come apart. Not a problem with SWC's and their crimp band but other bullets can be a problem. You can pull a bullet to check the crimp but I've used a jewelers loop. With it not hard to see when the plating splits and pulls away exposing a lead ring.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magload View Post
Right now my groups are pointing to Coated being just slightly better then plated. I will know better next month when I get my Ransom rest. My chrono says coated is around 50 fps faster with better ES of 43 and SD of 11 with my new 45 200gr RNFP Blue Bullets doing a avg of 973 fps. As per phone call with Berry I was told that any marking in the plating caused by crimps could effect accuracy.
Yep, over crimping. Pull a bullet & measure the base. There shoud be no more than a slight line where the crimp is, the base should not be any smaller. Also Imo, 1250fps is about where accuracy starts to fall off. I doubt you are getting that with that lad in a 3 1/2" bbl, but maybe.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:27 PM
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On the other hand the plated bullets work great in the .45 especially the 185 PFP along with the 230 PRN.

Velocities are below 900 fps so I'm sure that is a factor.

Maybe we should get the thick plated ones that Bkreutz uses and give them a try in the higher loadings.

BLM
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Old 04-28-2015, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Probably over crimped, plating gets broken & starts coming off. Plated & jacketed are not plug & play.
This. ^^^^^
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Old 04-28-2015, 01:01 PM
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FWIW; I tend to think of plated bullets as "clean shooting cast". Not good for heavier jacketed loads nor equal to cast lead loads (loads of 1200+ are easily attained with cast lead bullets) that are prone to shooting "dirtier". Trying to get true magnum velocities from plated bullets results in what the OP describes; they come apart, plating flakes off...
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