Well I was loading up some rounds last night and while setting up the powder drop to 4.6 grs of CFE Pistol I was surprised to see how little it filled the case. You have to look hard to is if it is in there. I know I have read post on here about some loads having to tip the barrel up to get the powder back by the primer. I have shot 50 rounds of this load before and had no problem but it just don't seam right. Any insite here.

Don

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

How about Bullseye or Titegroup? Same thing. Tiz the way it is

Some powders are position sensitive some are not, Only way to tell is with a chronograph and do the barrel tilt thing, I do not worry about it. First time I saw someone at the range doing that, real slow and deliberate (no chrono) I thought he was a bit off,

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

What you are seeing is the effect of powder density.

Back in the day, the .38 special was originally a black powder cartridge which is a low density powder.

You can weigh out 4 grains of pretty much any powder and while they all wight 4 grains, the volume they will take up are different do to granule configuration.

If it really bothers you, a switch to Trailboss would be in order. Otherwise, just be careful, and learn to live with it. FWIW, I use a powder check die when loading .38. It is a quick way to give me confidence that I have not thrown an overweight charge. I can easily tell the difference between a charge that is a couple tenths of a grain over or under target weight.

The 38 spcl,45 colt and a few I'm probably forgetting are like that.They originally used black powder which filled the case.Just eyeball them closely before you seat the bullet.

I will live with it. I run all my loads across my chrono and this load gave me 832 fps with a SD of 15 and a ES of 38 so I am not doing the barrel tip thing. Thanks for the info I will look in the a powder check die for the 38 all my other loads you can see. My LED turret light really helps.
Don

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Some powders like 7625 are position sensitive in .38, but several of the other powders are practically not enough to matter.
The early smokeless powders were almost as bulky as black powder, thus the large cases on cartridges from early 1900s. Trailboss is made to emulate early smokeless powder in bulkiness.

__________________
Science plus Art

I'm not for sure,, but way back when, I think some of the bullseye shooters were using 2.7 or 2.8 grs of bullseye with a WC or SWC in their 38 spl.. That's a whole bunch of loads per pound..

I prefer a load that fills the case about 40% or more. Just another safety step and easier to see when I load..

some bulls eye shooters (me) are still using 2.7 - 2.8 gr. BE behind the 148 wc.

Most "Ball" type powders are like that...........

It just looks worse in the long 38 special volume case that was
for black powder when introduced.

CFE, w231 and HS6 all look bad even in the little 9mm case !
Hard to believe that Bullseye fills up the 9mm case way better than w231.

However all four of these powders work well with starting loads in the 38 special round, for me.
I just double check all loads from the single stage before adding the bullet, for safety.

You know if you don't get distracted,usually by a primer problem, you shouldn't get a double charge. Then I was setting up my powder drop for 4.6 grs I drop 5 charges and average them till I get them 4.60 to 4.62. Well guess what you can drop 4 charges in a 38 case and still not compress the load with the bullet. That is a lot of spare space in the case. Don

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Position sensitivity is just a fact of life when loading for cases with
lots of air space. Just about all powders are position sensitive to some
degree or another. Titegroup is promoted as non position sensitive but
in my experience it is simply less so than most other powders. Some
powders are particulary bad so doing a bit of testing with a chronograph
can help you make choices. Some choose to ignore it I see but it
doesn't go away just because you choose not to look. Try a few tests
with factory ammo and you'll see that they are as bad if not worse
than your handloads.

If I were a competitive shooter I might do the barrel tip up thing, but I've never had a problem with ignition of small loads of fast powders. It's consistent as can be without special attention. Something else I might try would be a magnum primer with a slightly reduced load.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

We still do. I once experimented to see how many 2.8 gr charges fit in a .38 case. 5 filled it close to the top, so 1 dose obviously leaves a lot of empty space. The powder check die is very handy.

__________________
Common sense isn't so common.

I attempt to use powders that will overfill the case if a double charge is thrown. When it's not possible, I will examine every case in a loading block using a flashlight. By choice, I use a RCBS Rockchucker to load all my ammunition so checking every case is not a problem.

Over the years I have developed a couple of cat sneeze loads with powders known to be position sensitive. A pinch of dacron polyfill weighing about 0.1 grain tapped down in the case holds the powder against the flash hole. Although the extra steps take time, it gives me something to do during our long winters.

Average vol : 832 Extreme Spread : 38
Standard deviation : 15 This was a 10 shot test across a bench rest with a GP100. The gun was not tipped back so I don't think these were bad numbers. I like this CFE Pistol powder.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

As a note...
5.0grs of CFE in my 6" barrel is under a +P fps with a 158gr Lwc
and shoots at point of aim.
Using a 4.8gr load gave me 747 fps with a light crimp that was
close to a factory target load but impact was a little low and right...... but a good plinking load.

To clarify, different propellants have different Bulk Densities. I have seen tables which provide that information. Bulk density means simply the weight of a specific volume of powder, usually expressed as grains per cubic centimeter. Powders with low bulk density are often called bulk powders. I think Trail Boss has a very low bulk density, and therefore occupies a higher percentage of available case capacity vs. something like AA#5 , which has a very high bulk density, in the same case. The problem with Trail Boss is that is very expensive, in terms of powder cost per cartridge, vs. most other powders.

Did you test fire this load?????

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

My go to .38 special load is 5.2 grains of Unique under a Berry's158gr plated round nose for IDPA matches.

Fast smooth reloads with the round nose bullet and speed loaders, and never fails to drop reactive steel targets.

__________________
Take your time..quickly.

I don't have any CFE Pistol powder so all I know about it is
what I've read in various places. It may not be position
sensitive, some powders truely are not. If you were shooting
from a rest chances are that the powder position in the cases
was fairly consistant from shot to shot. Try a simple test
sometime, it's very easy. Tip the gun up to vertical, lower
slowly and fire over the chronograph. Now do the same but
with the gun tipped straight down first. You might get a few
surprises with any loads.

That is a good idea next time I drag the chrono to the range I want to try that. I will fire 5 each way then compare them to my first data. ty Don

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

I would definitely categorize that as a 'bad idea!'.

__________________
Common sense isn't so common.

The ability to put 2 and maybe 3 ( I can't remember if we got the whole 3rd charge in) over maximum charges of Bullseye in a .38spec case was why we quit using Bullseye back in the early 1980's.

back then, there was a great furor about using minimum charges of Bullseye in.38 spec loads using 148gr hollow base wad cutters, many articles were written, with pix, about fine pistols being destroyed by Bullseye......

Several of us got to wondering if the people whose pistols that blew up, had inadvertently used double (and possibly triple) maximum/or over maximum loads of Bullseye in their revolvers, and were just too embarrassed to admit it............Some guys will always push the limits on powder charges...... and re-loading with a low bulking powder like Bullseye, coupled with inattention and failure to eyeball each load for consistent case levels , could easily lead to having loads that could destroy any revolver........

When we use our Dillon 550B, we always use two people. The first places the empty case at station one & works the handle of the press, and advances the press each time. Person # 2 sits to his left, and eyeballs each case's powder level and places a bullet on the charged case. We have my dad's old articulated florescent jeweler's lamp from his watchmaker's bench, that uses a blue bulb and a white bulb aimed directly over the station. Using a second person removes the fear I had about using the Dillon, after using a Rock Chucker and it's powder thrower for so many years..

When we used our old RCBS powder thrower for pistol reloading, after setting the charge & getting 5 charges that are true..... we reload the entire block of 50 cases, inspecting (with our Mark 1 eyeballs) each case in the block and weighing the last one if they all look alike. Using the RCBS funnel we return the powder to the case & then seat the bullets.

__________________
be safe,enjoylife,journey well