I'm new to reloading. I have a friend walking me through it, and I've read, read, read, and read some more. Tonight I am working on finally actually loading a few rounds to test. My Lyman's book, my Hornady book, and Hodgon website seem to disagree a bit about a powder charge for the round I want to use.

I have 2 Hornady bullets, both 115 gr. One is RN FMJ and the other is the HAP bullet. I am using Titegroup and it lists 4.5 with an OAL of 1.125 for this type of projectile. Which is what I had decided on. I was referencing other manuals, and one doesn't list this powder with this projectile, and the other suggests that 4.5 is too much?

How in the world do you guys keep this stuff straight with all the contradicting data?

Does anyone have time to reference their book to give me some piece of mind to work these up so I can test them in the morning?

115gr FMJ RN Hornady projectile, CCI 500 primer, 4.5GR of titegroup, and an overall length of 1.125.

Thanks guys.


Matt

All tests are going to vary due to when they were done, slight changes in procedures, different powder lot numbers, setting depth etc etc.

If you have the exact bullet (Hornady) then use their data. They are conservative and start very low but their data works.

They made the bullet and tested it.Lyman has not been updated in a long time,

Next best would be Hodgdon but they tested another bullet so there is you differance.

Titegroup is a very fast powder for the 9mm and other high pressure round and would not be my choice. Yes people use it but slower powders are better IMHO. Titegroup is a very dense so just make sure you weigh your powder charges a slight differance can result in increased pressure,

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thank you for the input.

I chose titegroup as my first powder to load with based on the recommendation of my friend, and also the fact that on their site, and on the bottle it says it will work with 4 of the calibers I wish to reload. I can load some test rounds of each and see if I like them or not.

I did load some(that I could take back apart with a bullet puller if needed) and I went a bit extreme on weighing. Weighing each case, then filling and reweighing to verify the correct amount and adjusting or redoing it if it came out wrong. I also loaded some .40 S&W 180gr the same way.

I was going to load some 158 gr. .38 specials but the data on the bottle and in the magazines shows FPS faster than the berry's coated bullets I bought for. So I have to go back to the drawing board on that one.


Matt

On new load development (even from published data) you should start a the minimum load and work your way up to the maximum load to see which one works the best for you. Published OAL is normally the minimum length. I like loading RN at the longest that will chamber in the pistol and fit in the magazine. Titegroup is a good powder, I don't use it because I have other powders that I like better, but there's nothing wrong with TG as long as you're conscientious with your procedures. One invaluable tool is a chronograph, it lets you know what performance you are really getting. Good luck and be safe. As far as who to trust, I tend to believe the manufacturer of the powder, so in this case I'd trust the Hodgdon site more than the others.

There are several pistol powders with enough versatility to be used in several calibers. Titegroup works, but it's a very fast powder meant for low velocity target type rounds. As mentioned above, a little more Titegroup powder makes for a large increase in pressure. Something like Alliant Unique, W231 or Acc #5 or 7, Hodgdons Universal are more in the medium burning range.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Per Hornady 8th edition they do not list TG in their data for the 115 gr 9mm. The fmj-rn #35557 has a col listed at 1.100. The hp-xtp #35540 has a col listed at 1.075.

The 8th edition does not have data for the new HAP bullets. I emailed Hornady CS and was informed that the HAP bullet uses the same data as the XTP.

Can't help you with TG but if you can find some Power Pistol buy it.

TG is a fine TARGET type powder in 9mm.
You will not obtain maximum velocity with TG.
I use it in 9mm for range loads with a 124 gr. JHP; it is quite accurate.
For replicating "+P" loads, for practice with carry ammo I use HS-6 or CFE, which are much slower powders.
As Bkreutz says; a chronograph is a necessity to know what is really happening with your reloads. Published data will very seldom be what you achieve in reality out of your gun.

MattO,
You aren't going extreme with the weighing. Plan on always being meticulous with powder charges.

To eliminate confusion, don't use the case as a powder hopper. Use the pan that came with the scale. So your measured result is what you want. Dump the powder into the pan, weigh it, dump back into case with a funnel. Owning a proper powder funnel is mandatory.

Welcome to the Hobby!

Just to clear things up a bit. Yes, TG is listed for 9mm and 40 SW.

You just need to be very precise in your powder charge weight.

How are you measuring or dropping your powder??

Due to the fast burn and density of the powder a tiny bit makes a big difference. I have many many powders and TG is not one of them, Yes, I use Bullseye (which is fast) but only in 38 special or 45 ACP.(low pressure calibers)

Not trying to freak you out but it seems any problems with kbooms are with Glock 40 SW and Titegroup!.

Medium burn powders like HP 38, Unique, Longshot (slower) Power Pistol IMO are better for the 9mm and 40 SW.

Bottom line, sure use the TG just be sure you do not exceed max loads. Look at the Hodgdon data for the Speer GD 115 gr.
The range is 4.5 to 4.8. Three tenths (.3) is not very much!!

My Hornady #8 and Lyman do not list your exact HAP bullet

If you have #9 and it is listed, use that. If not I would use the Hodgdon data for the Speer Gold Dot.

Start another thread for the 40 SW as that is a different ballgame.

Lyman has data for the 115 XTP and TG and they start at 4.0 to 4.5 max but use a shorter COL of 1.090. So there is a tiny difference that makes a BIG difference ins a small high pressure round.

Just trying to sow you how all "little" things can make a BIG difference in pressure, velocity. That is why TG is a finicky powder.

Use the lowest charge and the longest COL that will plunk test in your barrel and you will be fine,

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Still Running Against the Wind

^^^^^^^^^ In regard to the HAP data.....Direct from Hornady Tech.
I would be very careful using load data from another makers bullets, even if they are the same weight and design. I specifically use the loading manual from the bullet brand I am using.

Case in point... Sierra and Hornady 300 gr bullet in .44 mag have a two grain difference in max load with 2400. Proceed with caution.

I think there is something terribly off with this statement. All Berry's bullets boxes I have seen list the max fps as 1250. If you have manuals with 38 special loads that have 158 grain bullets going faster than 1250 fps you need to toss those manuals in the trash.

Titegroup is my usual powder for 9mm and .40 S&W, and I have used it in .38 Special, although I prefer HP38.
Titegroup and HP38 are two of the most popular powders in IDPA and USPSA minor power loads.

Titegroup is an excellent powder and performs well as long as you follow instructions, but then, name me a fast powder that does not require following instructions. If you can't measure powder, then get a slow powder that won't go over pressure if you dip the case full!!!

Anytime you change any component in a load table, expect different data. They are not contradictions, they are differences due to changes. We live with that, and it is made easier by keeping some facts in mind, such as if you are looking at standard 9mm loads at the top end of the pressure, that is still the BOTTOM end of the pressure for +P loads, and any modern gun is not at risk with +P 9mm. You're not going to blow your gun if it is a tenth grain over the max standard pressure.

I have loaded and chrographed many 9mm titegroup loads with 115gr and 124gr Precision Delta, and the load you gave is a little over the minimum required for minor power, but still standard pressure. I use a Dillon loader and do not weigh every powder charge; just spot check. You DO need to weigh and recalibrate volume measures each time you change batches of powder.

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Science plus Art

Thank you everyone. I did load the .40 and the 9mm eight of each as a test batch. Fired them this morning at our backyard range. No failures to feed or fires. All grouped well. I shot the 9mm through my MP40c with a storm lake 9mm barrel. And the 40s went through my high pointe.

I do have a funnel for my powder and used the pan to weigh out loads making adjustments on the feed until I got consistent weights. Then I weighed each case and weighed each charge. The pan that came with my scale seems to like to hold on to the powder and was having to wipe it out each time I loaded it. Which is why I went directly to weighing each case and then each charge I out in.

Matt

Just to confuse you some more Just to show you that even with the exact same bullet tests can vary a little. They both used the same CCI primer.

Look at Hodgdon on line

For their test of 115 Speer Gold Dot with TG they list

4.5 to 4.8 grains with a COL of 1.125

Now look at Speer #14 with the same bullet. Their test is

4.1 to 4.5 grains but with a COL 1.135

As OKFC05 states, a few tenths plus or minus will not blow a gun, but I will add that overcharging any powder AND seating a bullet to deep can cause big problems. The tiny difference in the above COL is not a big deal nor is the powder weight spread. When anything is changed in the reloading "recipe" test than you need to double check (which you have)

The slower powders usally will give you more wiggle room in min to max which is the only reason I am dwelling on this with a new reloader and a fast powder in a high pressure round.

Back to your orginal post and data of:

"115gr FMJ RN Hornady projectile, CCI 500 primer, 4.5GR of titegroup, and an overall length of 1.125."

I would say you are fine with that, I would shoot it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Wipe your powder scale pan with some dryer anti static sheets and the powder shoud sstop cllinging to it.

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Lost in Penn's Woods

TG works fine for those Berry's 158 gr bullets. I load 5.0gr of TG with a 158gr Berrys FN for my .357 loads and 3.7gr of TG (same bullet) for .38 Special with good results. Loaded and shot truckloads of them with good results. It does stain the cylinder a funky color though. But it cleans right off. Both of those loads are straight out of the Modern Reloading book and are the same as listed on the website. Neither load comes close to exceeding the 1250fps limit stated on Berry's website.

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But then, what do I know?

What is the O.A. L. of both of those. I am searching for the data you posted so I can make notes, and make some more loads.

.38 Spec is 1.475 and .357 is 1.610, again, straight out of Modern Reloading by Lee. That book is basically a compilation of all the more recent published load data. So it tends to have the 'less hot' loads compared to previously (read: older) published data. That is my experience anyway. I have yet to observe any overpressure signs from any of the loads in that book for TG or WIN231/HP38 (or Trail Boss - but that's due to the case-is-full limits for Trail Boss).

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But then, what do I know?

Thank you, I actually looked the book up and have it ordered. One can never have enough reading and reference material!

Matt

Hi, I load and shoot a lot of 9mm and .40 with TiteGroup. It is quite accurate in both and does well with the 115 gr. bullets. From what I have seen, TG is best with lighter bullets in both 9 and .40 S&W. It does quite well with 115 gr. but I would not recommend it on bullets heavier than 115.....just my two cents. For recreational shooting and range work, I am more interested in small group size than absolute velocity and TG does well here. As many of the previous posts noted, it is a very fast powder and you MUST be absolutely sure to avoid any double charges. That is CRITICAL with fast powders. That said, you will always have a little variation between individual charges. I use a Dillion 550 and often see a tenth of a grain +/- when sample checking charged cases. This is normal and nothing to get excited about. However, whatever system you are using, make sure your powder charges are accurate. With TiteGroup, pressure builds very quickly with increasing loads and deeper seating, but it is not a "treacherous" powder....just one that requires attention to detail. Take your time, develop some light to modest test loads. I like to compare how factory loads shoot and what the primers look like compared to my reloads; not the most accurate way to check things, but my experience is that it will keep you safely in the ball park. FYI: from what I have seen over many years of reloading 9mm, there is a LOT of variation, "range" or whatever you want to call it in 9mm loads; it does look confusing at times, but if you start with modest loads, as published in the factory data books you won't get into any serious trouble. I have never seen "stunningly different" results in terms of pressure and recoil when using different components as long as powder charges are moderate to light. This game is not "that" difficult as long a reasonable caution and common sense are applied.
Good luck.... reloading is almost as much fun a shooting once you get into it.

There is no "current " or updated data in the LEE manual. It is all compiled from other sources and has not been revised in many years.

There is no COL listed only Min length. The diagram shows the SAAMI spec max COL. Other than a few bullets like XTP they do not indicate what bullet is tested.

Nothing against LEE (I use a lot if their "stuff") but their manual is not one of the better ones.

Stick with Hornady, Speer, Lyman

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thanks, I found the book pretty cheap on Amazon, it won't hurt to have another reference.

I really do appreciate all the help from the forums here. It's nice to not have to bug my friend all the time, even though he says it's no bother.

I did learn tonight, that Lee 3 die sets for .357 will not work for .38, but .38 set will work for .357..... of course I bought the set for .357! Now I get to own another die set. Oh well at least I won't have to keep adjusting them back and forth depending on which caliber I am loading.


Matt

Good price on the Hornady book here ($24.95). You can have it shipped free to your closest store, even one of the neighborhood markets. I also bought the electronic version for my iPhone so I have a quick reference when in a store
Hornady Handbook 9rg Edition - Walmart.com

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

FWIW, I'm still a fairly novice reloader myself. I have the latest Lee, Lyman's (49th IIRC), an older Speer, a Hornady that's within a version or two of being the latest available, PLUS a LoadBook for each of the 4 calibers I reload (380, 9mm, 38, and 357). I also have a couple of OLD manuals from Hercules and a bunch of downloaded stuff from Handloads.com

You simply cannot have too much reloading data IMO. You just have to figure out which one recipe to use. Generally I go with a slower powder and the minimum published load I can find.

Personally I've read too many KABOOM stories about TightGroup for me to be comfortable using it at this point in the game. I have some Unique, Bullseye, Power Pistol, Accurate #2, and a little Universal Clays - about 16 lbs or so all total.

From everything I've read about it here and elsewhere, you want to be VERY careful with the Tite Group. Personally, I don't think I'll be adding any of it to my selection of powders for a while. But that's just me and I'm pretty conservative.

I've shot a lot of titegroup from my friends reloads. And he has shot it for years. As long as I'm careful from what I have read I will be OK. I will almost always load on the light side.

That said I am studying the Lyman and Hornady manuals that I have to determine what other powder I should get. I have determined at this point that W-231 appears to be a good pistol powder, accurate #2, and a couple others I am still researching. I just have to figure out which powders I can get here consistently.


Thank you all again for the input.

Sounds like you are on the road to success.

Once you decide on a powder, try to buy a larger container of it so you won't have lot to lot consistancy problems.

As far as being careful with Titegroup, we ALL need to be careful loading ALL powders. While some powders are easier to load, ALL of them can be dangerous if loaded incorrectly.

Load safe and shoot straight.