Thanks in advance for all your replies!

I'm loading .357 with WIN231 and 158gr LSWC hitek coated from Missouri bullet Co. These are the 18bhn type. With CCI550 primers, 1.610" min OAL. (All per Hodgdon website).

Old book says max is 6.4 gr. New book/website says max is 5.0 gr.

So I load some with 5.0 gr of WIN231, and I get some leading "down hole" that is; along the barrel length and not at the forcing cone.

Questions:
1. Does that sound like gas cutting to you? Bullet too hard to obdurate, gas slipping by?
2. Anybody work with this combo? Anybody chrono comparable loads?
3. Anybody load upwards of 5.0gr of WIN231 with this combo?

I load a lot of .38 special with this combo and I know lots of people go up to the 'old' book figure of 4.4gr/158gr LSWC with no signs of overpressure.

Thought I'd get some other opinions before I work up from 5.0gr in the .357. Looks like gas cutting to me. Thinking of either going with the 12bhn 158gr coated LSWC at 5.0 or increasing from 5.0 with the 18bhn variety.

Edit: The 5.0gr/W231 .357's were totally accurate, so I don't have any need to go much higher for accuracy. Just trying to address the leading issue.

Thanks!

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But then, what do I know?

18 BHN is a hard lead for high fps .......

a 14-15 BHN is better for medium and lower speeds.

According to some of my data books.............
6.4 grs is a very safe load with w231 with a 158gr lead bullet.

Give it a try and see if the leading problem stops.

If they are coated bullets you should not have any leading??

What Nevada stated is true for regular lead bullets. Very hard bullets will not stop leading if they do not fit the barrel correctly same with softer.

HP 38 or Win 231 is a great powder but it is more of a medium 357 Mag load.
If you have a magnum powder like 2400 or H110 you can push those bullets realy fast!

Gas cutting is a whole different thing, It is when the gas cuts into the top strap of the revolver by the breach face,

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Still Running Against the Wind

I agree that the 18 bhn is too hard with that combo unless you are pushing the speed limit. I'm getting great results with MBC 158 coated with their softer 12 bhn over 231 at 1000 fps

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Original Winchester data shows a max charge of W231 of 6.7 grs with
158 gr lead bullets. Hodgdon's data is probably light Cowboy action
data. From what i've read on other forums 7.0 grs with 158 gr cast
SWCs is a popular load. The highest I have gone so far is 6.4 grs with
a 158 gr cast bullet at a little over 1100 fps out of a 4" barrel. No
indications of pressure problems. You have plenty of room to work
upwards from 5.0 grs if you so desire.

Thanks! 6.4gr is also what my old Hornady book shows.

Re: the other poster; ok, I should call it 'deposits of coating and/or lead in the barrel' vs. 'leading' because they are coated bullets. Either way, there is molten goo being deposited down the barrel in the revolvers. That's in a 4" 686 and a 3" 66.

Curiously, I shot some of these (5.0 gr/158gr coated LSWC's) out of my Rossi M92 lever gun yesterday and experienced no 'leading'. Hmmmm.

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But then, what do I know?

No throats & no cylinder gap to allow gas by-pass.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Update: Just got back from the range.

I went up to 5.5gr of WIN231 with the 158gr MBC hitek coated bullets. They worked fine with zero signs of overpressure and very minimal leading.

Totally accurate in the M92 lever gun. Somewhat accurate in the 686 4", but not a great target load.

Here's the 'fun' part: before leaving I decided to try a few cylinders in my 60-9. Wow! What a tack driver at 7 yards! Single action group was maybe 1". 3 touching + 2 touching. Wow! And totally manageable recoil-wise.

Thinking I'll keep working up to a little over 6 grains.

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But then, what do I know?

Take one of the Hi Tech bullets and put it on a concrete floor or rock. Hit it with a propane torch and see what happens to the outside coating. Nothing! The lead will melt inside the coating.
Crack a bullet with a hammer and do the same thing, the lead will melt out but the coating will remain almost like a shell.

Yes, they do leave a deposit of the coating but it is not lead, it will come off with a few patches and solvent.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Oh $%^!!!

I was just checking my books;

Turns out the max powder charge for HP-38 (which I'm using because they don't list win231 for .357 mag RIFLE loads) is LESS than that for the pistol loads. By about half a grain...

SOOOOOO....that means the fast-burning powders like WIN231 should not be using pistol load data for ammo being shot in rifles...

I'm guessing it could cause overpressure. Well, glad I worked up on that load...

Though I will report that there was no signs of overpressure in the 5.5gr win231/158 gr MBC hitek load.

Still...geez, that could go wrong in a hurry.

Guess I'll shoot the rest of them up in my revolvers and down-load some others for the lever gun.

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But then, what do I know?

I figured the same thing, but got leading in my 4" .357 with just 30 rounds coated bullets at about 1,000 fps. LEADing, not coating residue, but shiny silver lead. I used a .357" bullet, maybe results would have been better with a .358", but none the less, coatings are not a cure all for leading in revolvers. Looks like bullet fit is still important.
FWIW, coated bullets shoot great in my HK45C with no problems.

I totally get that it might be lead, or, it might be 'coating' material. Either way there is molten crud in the barrel

I'm just trying to get less of it - which I did by increasing the charge!

Now, I just have to remember to keep these hotter loads OUT OF my lever gun!

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But then, what do I know?

Look at the difference in pressure between the Hodgdon data for HP38/win 231 and the revolver VS rifle data. It is much less pressure (cup) in the rifle) the .5 gr difference I doubt would make any difference in a rifle.

Not encouraging anyone to go over max loads. Consider how much pressure is generated with full house Mag loads of slow powders like H110, 2400??

Again, leading is more about proper fit than velocity

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Still Running Against the Wind

Once again, Hodgdon's data that you are refering to is most
likely Cowboy action data. W231 and HP38 are the same
powder, previously marketed by different companies, but
now marketed only by Hodgdon. Again, much of Hodgdon's
load data defies logic. Your load of 5.5 grs of 231 is not
remotely close to being too hot for your 357 rifle. There
seems to be much confusion among handloaders regarding
the understanding of the difference between "maximum"
and the highest charge weights listed in various manuals.
I strongly suggest that you do two things. Buy a chronograph,
and read your manuals throughly. It seems obvious that
many handloaders never read their manuals beyond simply
scanning the load data. Ever wonder what was on all those
pages you have to thumb through to get to the load data?
A wealth of information, that's what.

Have your barrel slugged and measure the bullet diameter. An improper fit can cause gas cutting. The bullet should 1 to 2 1/1000ths over the barrel diameter.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Cracking a bullet with a hammer or hitting it with a propane torch is different because you don't have anything scraping the coating off the bullet like the barrel of a revolver does.

The bullets are punched through a sizer AFTER they are coated. So that would indicate how strong/tenacious it is

Unless the bullet coating is cracked when crimping I doubt they are causing leading in the barrel. That is their whole claim to fame. They have been used for years in Australia and allowed in lead free indoor ranges.

When I first started using them I clean my guns (OCD) and all this "stuff" came out. It was the polymer coating color. not lead.

Take a new coated bullet. Put in on a anvil and smash it with a hammer several times. The coating does not come off and stays on the flatened bullet.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Call me "old school" but if you need to drive a lead bullet over the magic 1000 fps mark then use linotype and a gas check. If that doesn't work, then you need a traditional gilding metal jacket. I've tried a lot of the plated/coated bullets and have been left underwhelmed. I'm not sure what problem they solve that can't be better addressed using something else.

Thanks everybody...

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But then, what do I know?

Assuming that your rifle data is for a lead bullet, the issue is velocity rather than pressure.
Your peak pressure is within the first 1/4" of movement.
Velocity related problems are mitigated by the coating.
Go forth and spread metal.

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it just needs more voltage

Commonly, the top powder charge listed with lead bullets in most loading manuals is one that will give the most velocity without leading. You can usually find higher safe charges, but you may get excessive leading, coated bullets excepted.

Improperly cured hi tek aside, it solve a lot.
Powder coating has the velocity advantage while hi tec has process advantages.
With pc, 2700 fps plain base ww lead without leading is a common occurrence.
Plated ... yeah buddy, I'm with you.
1200 fps isn't that great of an advancement over nekid soft lead.
The coatings, however, do as they say. And they have earned some hard won converts

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it just needs more voltage

I have fired mebbe 2,000 Precision "black" coated (Hi-Tek) bullets in my 45 ACP and 9mm (hot loads). I have fired another 1,500 Powder Coated bullets through my 38 Sp., 357 Mag, .44 Mag., 9mm, 45 ACP, 303 British, and a few through my 30-06.

I have always used the same methods of reloading these coated bullets as I do with regular lead bullets; bullet to gun fit, process, and loads (except the rifle rounds are loaded a bit higher than lead). I have never experienced any leading what so ever. A bit of "fouling" on occasion, but that comes out with wet patches. I'd suspect there is a fit problem or a "process" problem to get actual leading in your gun...

What you have is from gas cutting due to slightly small bullets and too low of a pressure due to a light powder charge. Powder coating has a BHN of 22-28 but as always fit is king and your bullets are probably too skinny.

The gas cut powder coating deposits will look like dark "fake" lead streaks but should clean up with either a Chore Boy wrapped bore mop or even a snug fitting bore snake run through a few times.