Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-13-2015, 11:55 AM
klausinak's Avatar
klausinak klausinak is offline
US Veteran
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: South Central Alaska
Posts: 389
Likes: 1,536
Liked 381 Times in 177 Posts
Question 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??

Due to a recent purchase, I find myself once again loading 357 Mag. I have somehow hidden my copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3d ed, from myself; I found my 4th ed, but no Unique loads. Could someone help me out with a min/max for Unique? Thanks in advance!

-Klaus
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-13-2015, 08:36 PM
littleloon littleloon is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

no Unique loads for that cast bullet in third addition of Lyman. Littleloon
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 07-13-2015, 08:38 PM
growr growr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 4,285
Likes: 2,474
Liked 4,068 Times in 1,517 Posts
Default

I have found 6-7 grains of Unique to be very accurate and fun to shoot with that same bullet. Might work for you as well.

Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 07-13-2015, 09:03 PM
Snapping Twig's Avatar
Snapping Twig Snapping Twig is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Posts: 3,412
Likes: 482
Liked 3,511 Times in 1,166 Posts
Default

Just off the top of my head, I was thinking 5 ~ 7g, but this is just from my thoughts and experience with reloading - not a book.

No way would I go over 5g until I found a similar weight and style of bullet for a reference. 5g is a +P Special, so no worries there in a magnum.

358429 weighs out at 173g when I cast them from WW.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 07-13-2015, 09:54 PM
Doubless Doubless is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 560
Likes: 54
Liked 339 Times in 178 Posts
Default

The third Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists 7.1 grains of Herco as the max charge behind the 358429. Looking at a burn rate chart, Herco is listed at #75, and Unique is at #57. I think I would start somewhere around 5.5 grains and start judiciously working my way up, stopping somewhere around 6.2 grains or so. (7.1 grains of Herco is listed as generating 39k CUP...)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 07-13-2015, 10:09 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 8,914
Likes: 1,049
Liked 6,379 Times in 3,074 Posts
Default

6" barrel 357 magnum 158 lead w/ Unique powder

5.7 gr Unique ................ fair
6.0 gr ........................... better
6.6 gr ............ 1133 fps... Best c/o POA

"X" grs at ....... 1320 fps ( L & N frames only ) POA

Unique will work with lead bullets but you can use 50% less powder with
Bullseye, Red Dot, w231 or CFE for target loads.

Good shooting.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 07-13-2015, 10:55 PM
Alk8944's Avatar
Alk8944 Alk8944 is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sandy Utah
Posts: 6,919
Likes: 825
Liked 5,053 Times in 2,211 Posts
Default

Lyman "Handbook of Cast Bullets, 3rd Edition" has no Unique loads for 358429. Second Edition shows 5.5/7.5 Unique. Other earlier Lyman books show only max. of 7.0 gr Unique.

Hercules has no 173 gr. data, but goes to 7.1 for 160 gr. LSWC. Depending on your mould and alloy the 358429 can vary from ca. 160 to 175 gr. Mine usually ranges from 165-168 gr.
__________________
Gunsmithing S&W since 1961
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 07-13-2015, 10:59 PM
6GUNSONLY's Avatar
6GUNSONLY 6GUNSONLY is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northwest Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 228
Liked 854 Times in 316 Posts
Default

I've shot quite a few with 6.0 grains of Unique with a 158 grain SWC. It was a pretty good load. A little smoky and dirty, as Unique tends to be.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 07-13-2015, 11:53 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 28,531
Likes: 36,521
Liked 26,000 Times in 12,433 Posts
Default This stinks......

I thought, 'Man, there HAS to be a load in the Lyman 49th'. The heaviest bullet they show with Unique for .357 is like a 120 grain. They have the exact bullet you list, but no Unique loads.

STINKS!!!
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 07-14-2015, 01:57 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,713
Likes: 1,611
Liked 3,860 Times in 1,822 Posts
Default

My 4th edition Lyman cast bullet manual lists 6.1 grs Bullseye and 7.1
grs Herco as maximum with the 358429 bullet. My old Hurcules 1988
manual lists 6.8 grs Unique with a 170 gr FMJ and 7.0 grs with a 180 gr
JFP bullet. Looking at this data I would think you would be ok up to
7.0 grs easy but it's your call.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 07-14-2015, 10:21 AM
klausinak's Avatar
klausinak klausinak is offline
US Veteran
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: South Central Alaska
Posts: 389
Likes: 1,536
Liked 381 Times in 177 Posts
Default

Thanks for all the replies! I'm beginning to think I loaned out my 3rd Edition, if only I could remember to whom . For some reason I feel certain that I've seen Unique data somewhere .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapping Twig View Post
Just off the top of my head, I was thinking 5 ~ 7g, but this is just from my thoughts and experience with reloading - not a book.


^^This was my thinking as well.

Last edited by klausinak; 07-14-2015 at 11:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-14-2015, 11:50 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 8,914
Likes: 1,049
Liked 6,379 Times in 3,074 Posts
Default

The newer Lyman 49th edition has been watered down from the old data..........

It almost looks like they are trying to make Unique and older powders look BAD..........
with the lower volume of powder and lower fps, compared to the full loads with the newer powders and their higher fps, listings.

the new data has a 158 lead with Bullseye at 1096 when the old data has it at 1295. Blue Dot at 1272 fps vs the old at 1425 fps. My old Unique maximum matches the fps in the newer manual with the maximum loading with H110 powder.........

but I guess safety is the name of the game, now.

Tight groups.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-14-2015, 12:42 PM
tops's Avatar
tops tops is online now
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NC, Yadkin County
Posts: 4,690
Likes: 12,251
Liked 5,509 Times in 2,109 Posts
Default

I have an old Lyman book from the 60s but the front cover is gone so I don't know the number. 165 grain, cast, plain base, Keith #358429.
Unique 6 gr., 980 fps
Unique 8 gr., 1220 fps.

Larry
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 07-14-2015, 01:00 PM
boatbum101 boatbum101 is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Pensacola,FL
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 3,012
Liked 800 Times in 409 Posts
Default

Mine too drop out @ 173gr with Lyman # 2 alloy . I prefer 13.0gr 2400 & as stated earlier in thread 7.0gr Unique is max.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 07-15-2015, 10:00 AM
Frank237's Avatar
Frank237 Frank237 is online now
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Craig, Montana
Posts: 3,079
Likes: 360
Liked 2,279 Times in 875 Posts
Default

DO note that the long #358429 when loaded in mag cases can be too long for the cylinders of some revolvers. Possibly why it's not in a lot of books for other than the shorter .38 Spcl case.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 07-15-2015, 10:51 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 8,914
Likes: 1,049
Liked 6,379 Times in 3,074 Posts
Default

As a note of interest;

My old Lyman book shows the lead 160 weight class of bullets
using Herco as a powder, to duplicate the Factory loadings.

Unique was used to duplicate the lighter jacketed bullets.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 07-15-2015, 11:19 AM
6GUNSONLY's Avatar
6GUNSONLY 6GUNSONLY is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northwest Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 228
Liked 854 Times in 316 Posts
Default

My solution to the OAL length problem is to just seat/crimp over the front driving band shoulder, giving consideration with powder charges for the resulting reduced case capacity.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 07-15-2015, 01:34 PM
Homie Homie is offline
US Veteran
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 710
Likes: 426
Liked 219 Times in 146 Posts
Wink

My July '58 edition of Lyman's "Handbook of Cast Bullets" lists the a 358429 weighing 165 gr. with 5.9 gr. of Unique as max.

Good luck.
__________________
Good shooting.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-15-2015, 10:00 PM
jsmith357 jsmith357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 188
Likes: 6
Liked 29 Times in 17 Posts
Default

6 grains...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-16-2015, 08:14 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 30
Liked 1,095 Times in 492 Posts
Default

Shot the 358429 for decades, I have/cast/use the standard 358429 mold along with the 358439 hp mold and the extremely rare 358431 hb mold.

As others have stated, 7.0gr of unique is the magic # you're looking for.

An older Lyman manual from 1967. Has allot of good info/reading in it. It still has info on the older molds and reloading tools. Hence: the last of an era/2 generations. In that manual they list 7.0gr of unique/358429 as their most accurate load.

http://castpics.net/LoadData/OM/Lyman44.pdf

Most manuals aren't what they used to be, a link to the last great Alliant manual. It's a 2005 manual that shows a ton of different pistol loads. Starting in 2008 Alliant changed their manual format to what you see now, no bbl lengths/no pressures/only 2 or 3 bullets listed for a caliber load.

http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebie...liant_2005.pdf

Another old Lyman manual, from 1951. Another source for info that is long gone.

http://castpics.net/LoadData/OM/IdealHandbook38.pdf

Personally, I like the older manuals, allot of what they say and did can be used to this day. I swage allot of my own bullets, jacketed & lead. There's no manuals to look up oals or loads. But every reloader has the ability to measure how deep a bullet goes into a case and compare that depth to known bullets. The oals are the easiest to figure out, a plunk test or seeing if they extend out the cylinders is simple enough.

Why the seating depth is important to measure and understand with a bullet that you have no data for:
In that link to the 2005 alliant manual if you look at the simple (countless 1,000,000's have been shot) there's a load for the 148gr lwc. The 2.7gr (target load) lists 14,600psi. Same case/primer/bullet/case/test bbl/etc with a 2.8gr load lists 15.900psi. Fast burning powders tend have more issues than slower powders. There's allot of kaboom talk with the 9mm/40s&w's. 1st thing I think when I hear or see a thread about a kaboom is titegroup. Bullseye used to be the bad boy on the block so alliant put this out decades ago.



Ramshot realized the same thing and puts this in their reloading manuals about their fastest burning powder zip.



Why write all this???
Knowledge is a good thing, the more a reloader learns the better they become.

Something else to look at:
If you can recover some of the bullets from your loads/test loads. This will tell you allot about your load/alloy/lube combo.



You're looking for bullet slump/compression. The photo above (not mine) was sent to be from a fellow shooter/reloader. We were discussing bullet slump at the lube groove and how it affects accuracy. Those are "keith" style bullets (358429 is a keith bullet) with rounded and square lube grooves. Look at the height of the unfired bullet's lube groove and then the recovered bullets compressed lube grooves. Same firearm/shooter/caster & alloy on the same day/lube/etc, the only difference is the amount the lube groove compressed/failed.

Chronographs are a beautiful thing!!!!. Not sure about a load? I always set the chronograph up and run some test loads of a know load to make sure it's working properly and then run the test loads. Chronographs will help, if you get 1400fps with your 1st shot you might want to rethink your loads. They will also aid in telling you how position sensitive you load is. Simply point the firearm up before every shot and run a test string. Then point the firearm down before every shot.

Reading your brass is always good. Look for suite on 1 side of the case only, that ='s lite load/barely sealed the cylinders. Test different crimps, it's a real eye opener. The chronograph will pick up on lite/weak crimps as will your targets.

Anyway, just throwing it out there.

Enjoy your 358429/357 combo
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #21  
Old 07-18-2015, 01:22 AM
6GUNSONLY's Avatar
6GUNSONLY 6GUNSONLY is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northwest Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 228
Liked 854 Times in 316 Posts
Default

Forrest r, wonderful info. Thanks for posting the links to those great old manuals. I downloaded all three of them. Much appreciated.
Ken
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-14-2020, 04:17 PM
6GUNSONLY's Avatar
6GUNSONLY 6GUNSONLY is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northwest Alabama, USA
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 228
Liked 854 Times in 316 Posts
Default

Just came across this thread again today. I loaded the last of my cast 358429s a few nights ago. Time to head back to the casting bench. FWIW, my bullets come out 173 grains cast of WW hardened just a bit with 50/50 solder. Also found that my 4" Ruger Security Six cylinder length will allow this bullet seated in the normal crimp groove. Barely.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-14-2020, 07:42 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is online now
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 101
Liked 2,361 Times in 1,101 Posts
Default

I don't give a flip what the newer loading manuals say . My load using unique with the Lyman 358429 cast bullet has been , since the beginning of time , " 7.0 grs " bullet crimped in the crimp groove . People complain about unique being so dirty yet they down load . It needs pressure to burn clean . I have shot a buzillion of those in K-frame 357's and nary a problem . My guns are just as tight as the day I bought them . I use the older load manuals . Regards Paul

Last edited by cowboy4evr; 04-14-2020 at 07:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #24  
Old 04-15-2020, 12:10 AM
SLT223 SLT223 is online now
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,959
Likes: 2,181
Liked 4,260 Times in 1,215 Posts
Default

Maybe I’m a moron, but I treat mid range powders more like slow powders in that I load them toward the top of their envelope. That’s what has achieved best results for me. In fact, I’ve found pretty much all powders work better toward the top. I’ve also found most load manuals to be unimpressive in their suggestions for unique in 45 Colt and 357. Those suggestions seem to make some sooty loads, and I’ve found sootiness and performane vary inversely with mid range powders. My range time is best spent when I load toward the top. I think 6.5 to 7 is sound advice. Works for me and my guns.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 04-15-2020, 12:20 PM
38SPL HV 38SPL HV is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Northern Nevada
Posts: 1,002
Likes: 632
Liked 656 Times in 325 Posts
Default

Yes, Unique burns best when pushed. 6.0 grs Unqiue and the 358429, loaded “short” (1.553” OAL) burns cleanly for me. Guess the shorter OAL creates a bit more pressure and results in higher velocity with clean burn.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-15-2020, 02:42 PM
Skyhunter Skyhunter is offline
Member
358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag?? 358429 & Unique in 357 Mag??  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
Likes: 103
Liked 78 Times in 43 Posts
Default

klausinak -
My Lyman 45th Edition (Published 1970) lists the following for bullet #358429 fired from an S&W Model 27 w/5" bbl:
Bullet weight w/#2 alloy = 168 grs.
Unique:
Starting load at 4.0 grs. - 739 fps.
Max Load at 7.0 grs. - 1,157 fps.
Accuracy load of 7.0 grs.
Max OAL w/bullet: 1.590"

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (circa 1970) list the following for the #358429 bullet and Unique powder:
Starting load at 5.5 grs. - 1,080 fps. (C.U.P. = 21,600)
Max load at 7.5 grs. - 1,340 fps. (C.U.P. = 39,900)

I hope this helps.

WYT-P
Skyhunter
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
358429 & Unique in a .38 SPL klausinak Reloading 11 03-03-2014 10:51 PM
Lyman 358429 Snapping Twig Reloading 3 04-14-2012 07:31 AM
358429 Paul5388 Reloading 23 12-29-2011 10:56 PM
The .357 Magnum and bullet #358429 David LaPell Reloading 9 08-22-2010 05:04 PM
Lyman 358429 (168gr) & 5gr Unique 336A Reloading 14 03-17-2009 03:34 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:47 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)