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08-15-2015, 12:01 AM
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45 Colt accuracy loads
I am currently shooting 250g RNFP bullets over 8.5g of Unique. This is a 'classic' 45 Colt load but I'd like to see if I can improve accuracy with a different powder. Looking for 850 FPS or perhaps a bit more, but still within normal SAAMI pressure limits.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Last edited by andyo5; 08-15-2015 at 01:08 PM.
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08-15-2015, 12:05 AM
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Out of what gun?
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08-15-2015, 12:14 AM
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My experience with the .45c is that matching cast bullets to the cylinder throats / bore is probably the biggest single thing that can help with good accuracy. There is a lot of variation in the numerous guns that have been chambered in this caliber over the past 135 or so years. Personally, I have always had good luck with Unique, Red Dot, and W-231 / HP-38 when shooting cast target level loads in this caliber. Unless they are a perfect fit, I avoid hard cast, and favor bullets cast on the soft side, with a soft lube, as these will more easily bump up or down as needed, and will reduce leading and improve accuracy in moderate target loads.
Larry
Last edited by Fishinfool; 08-15-2015 at 12:23 AM.
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08-15-2015, 12:38 AM
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In both Colts and S&Ws I always got best accuracy with 800X, but it is such a nuisance to load I gave up on it years ago. I don't think there is a measure made that will throw a 7-10 grain charge of that stuff repeatably. I still use the old standbys - generally 231 and Unique.
If you load with one of the modern electronic powder "dispensers" 800X might be just the thing. One thing nice about 800X is it does take up quite a bit of room in the case.
Other powders my various friends use in .45 Colt are Red Dot/Green Dot, HS6, and AA5. I'd be very careful with AA5 in .45 Colt but the results I have seen indicate it works pretty well.
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08-15-2015, 04:57 AM
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A recent issue of Handloader magazine, which I can't seem to find
right now, had exactly the information you seek. Brian Pearce listed
a table of loads with about fifteen different powders at charge weights
that deliver traditional .45 Colt velocities at std pressure level. He
used a 5.5" revolver I think and loaded a 250 gr cast bullet to about
860 fps.
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08-15-2015, 09:04 AM
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Fishinfool, I am also using softer cast bullets. I find that I get very little leading with them. Barrel always comes clean. Alwslate, I do have that Pierce article laying around somewhere. I was just looking for the experience of forum members. Thanks for the replies. You are tending to confirm my use of Unique. I have used HS6 and Blue Dot in the 13.0 grain range. They worked well, but I didn't get better results with them than I did with Unique.
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08-15-2015, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate
A recent issue of Handloader magazine, which I can't seem to find
right now, had exactly the information you seek. Brian Pearce listed
a table of loads with about fifteen different powders at charge weights
that deliver traditional .45 Colt velocities at std pressure level. He
used a 5.5" revolver I think and loaded a 250 gr cast bullet to about
860 fps.
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You might be referring to "Traditional .45 Colt Loads" by Brian in the August 2014 issue of Handloader? Lists 23 different loads driving a 250 gr. bullet to 860 fps.
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08-15-2015, 10:43 AM
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Without the gun you are using it's impossible to tell. Here is the article . It is about a certain bullet but gives pressures (3 charts for what different guns can handle) There are also many other articles on line.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazi...246partial.pdf
$%=45
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08-15-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3
Without the gun you are using it's impossible to tell. Here is the article . It is about a certain bullet but gives pressures (3 charts for what different guns can handle) There are also many other articles on line.
$%=45
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Thanks for that. But since I don't cast bullets that article has limited utility for me. It does suggest that I could be looking at trying some Titegroup.
I have five guns chambered for 45 Colt, from a 4" Smith to a 7 1/2" Bisley.
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08-15-2015, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3
If you fix the title of your thread to 45 Colt, there will be a bunch of similar threads pop up at the bottom of this thread.
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Thanks! I didn't notice that I had accidentally held down the shift key while typing 45.
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08-15-2015, 01:58 PM
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Here is one old thread, maybe on that one it will show more on the bottom.
Powder Options in 45 Colt
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08-15-2015, 02:57 PM
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I run 800x in mine but only 6.4 grains under my cast 230gn Lee TL/TC. I powder coat these and have to keep pressures low for the Howell conversion...but they are accurate. I will get a bit of leading right at the forcing cone after a while but it's not enough to be a nuisance. Magnum primers and a heavy crimp seem to really work well with light charges of 800x. Good luck with your quest....love the 45 colt !
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08-15-2015, 04:46 PM
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6.5 gr Red Dot will give an accurate 900 fps loading all day long.
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08-15-2015, 04:52 PM
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I have an original Vaquero 4 5/8 barrel. After ream the cylinder throats from .449 to .452 and using cast bullets sized to .454. I found 9 gr. of Unique to be an accurate load. You can expect about 100 fps for each grain of powder anywhere from 8 to 10 gr. with Unique using a 250 gr. bullet.
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08-15-2015, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5
Thanks for that. But since I don't cast bullets that article has limited utility for me. It does suggest that I could be looking at trying some Titegroup.
I have five guns chambered for 45 Colt, from a 4" Smith to a 7 1/2" Bisley.
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There are several vendors that sell cast bullets on the net
and they have several different designs suitable for use in
the .45 Colt. They will be more than happy to deliver all you
could ever want right to your front porch for a modest fee.
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08-15-2015, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate
There are several vendors that sell cast bullets on the net
and they have several different designs suitable for use in
the .45 Colt. They will be more than happy to deliver all you
could ever want right to your front porch for a modest fee.
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True. And I do buy cast bullets. But the articleby Pierce mentions a specific RCBS mold for a '270' bullet (which apparently weighs 280 grains) that is obtained from using the RCBS mold. I have never seen it for sale by an online vendor.
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08-15-2015, 07:49 PM
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If flake powders don't do it for me, I switch to ball powders......
I have found that my shotguns, rifles , revolvers or pistols will
tell me what they like , if I shove enough powder down their throats !!
Its a lousy job, but someone has to do it................
One gentleman mentioned that HS-6 did not work for him.....
but it is like Unique and may work in your weapon.
It did well in my 38's, 357's and 9mm's.
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08-15-2015, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5
True. And I do buy cast bullets. But the articleby Pierce mentions a specific RCBS mold for a '270' bullet (which apparently weighs 280 grains) that is obtained from using the RCBS mold. I have never seen it for sale by an online vendor.
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I only linked to that article as it had the 3 charts which placed guns in the groups of how much pressure (how heavy a load) they could handle.
The topic comes up a lot as to for example what loads can a SW M 25 handle , compared to say Ruger/TC loads.
The Unique load you mentioned is a classic load and is about the max I will shoot in my M 25 Mt Gun. The HP38/ Win 231 load is a good one also for that gun.
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08-15-2015, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3
The Unique load you mentioned is a classic load and is about the max I will shoot in my M 25 Mt Gun. The HP38/ Win 231 load is a good one also for that gun.
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How many grains of 231/HP38 do you load?
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08-16-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5
How many grains of 231/HP38 do you load?
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Hodgdon data:
Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading
Read towards the bottom of this article:
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
Before I sold my SW460Mag I would run Ruger loads of 45 Colt in it, I had a Good load using Longshot, Not for the SW though!
I am not listing any loads as they are all in print and you have different guns.
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08-16-2015, 11:08 AM
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My smith 25-5 is excellent with titegroup pushing a 250 grain Keith style bullet at around 850 fps but the important thing is they are sized to 454. One of my colt saa won't even chamber a cartridge with a 454 bullet without a good nudge.
All of my 2nd generation colts use 451 bullets with great success.
Gotta slug the bore, pay attention to the cylinder throat and find the compromise that will work.
I had some hollow based wad cutters that a friend used to cast for me that were superb. He passed away and his kids sold his casting stuff on fleabay before any of his friends could offer to buy, we would have payed top dollar to help out with his expenses, they knew nothing about what they had so their descriptions didn't make the prices high.
He had this mould cut to his specs to overcome his oversized cylinder throats.
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08-16-2015, 02:34 PM
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Well, whaddaya know!
My main reason for starting this thread was that in spite of my using a 'classic' 45 Colt load, I just had a nagging feeling that I wasn't extracting the most accuracy that I should be able to get with this cartridge. I had read articles stating that more than 8.5 grains of Unique was 'hard on guns' and not recommended, so I just assumed that going over 8.5 grains was going past SAAMI pressure limits.
While looking at my copy of Speer Manual #12, I glanced over the recommendations for the 250g lead cast bullets and noticed the specs for Unique. Starting load was 8.6 grains and max load was 9.5 grains. According to this, I have been using below a starting charge! A check of the 2014 Alliant manual confirmed that they were also quoting 9.5 grains.
My issues have been out of 6 round groups, four or five tightly clustered and the others appearing as 'fliers'. If I am using a low charge, that is what I would expect.
So I just loaded 20 rounds with 9.2 grains of Unique. Off to the range later today (after they finish the machine gun match) and I'll let you know what I found.
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08-16-2015, 02:57 PM
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My S&W 25s and Colt NS both shoot the 250 cast RNFP well. This
is bullet I use on deer with m-25. /9 gr Unique.
I came into 16 lbs of Win. 630 recently and have been shooting
it with the Lyman-Ideal 237gr wadcutter/12 gr Win 630/750fps
very accurate target load.
I just traded into a RCBS 270gr Kieth style mould. Have poured
up a few hundred, but have not loaded any as yet. I pour all my
45 Colt bullets a little on soft side, extra dose of tin. I only shoot
in 750 to 900 fps range, so leading is no problem. Has anyone
used the 270gr RCBS ?
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08-16-2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50
My S&W 25s and Colt NS both shoot the 250 cast RNFP well. This
is bullet I use on deer with m-25. /9 gr Unique.
I came into 16 lbs of Win. 630 recently and have been shooting
it with the Lyman-Ideal 237gr wadcutter/12 gr Win 630/750fps
very accurate target load.
I just traded into a RCBS 270gr Kieth style mould. Have poured
up a few hundred, but have not loaded any as yet. I pour all my
45 Colt bullets a little on soft side, extra dose of tin. I only shoot
in 750 to 900 fps range, so leading is no problem. Has anyone
used the 270gr RCBS ?
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See this article posted in one of my previous posts up above.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazi...246partial.pdf
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08-16-2015, 05:07 PM
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My vote is for Titegroup as I have shot thousands of rounds with it. From bullet weights as low as 200 SWC to 270 grain bullets with excellent results. As the name implies TITEGROUPS.
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08-16-2015, 08:16 PM
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This afternoon, I loaded some 255g LSWC rounds with 9.2g of Unique. My M25-7 liked it, shooting a 1 1/2" group of 6 rounds at 15 yards. Bear in mind I am holding the gun in my hands, supporting my hands on a sandbag. No Ransom Rest here. So that is pretty good (for me, anyhow). But my 5 1/2" Bisley did not do so well with this. Tomorrow I plan to try Drm50's load with RNFP bullets and we will see.
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08-17-2015, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5
True. And I do buy cast bullets. But the articleby Pierce mentions a specific RCBS mold for a '270' bullet (which apparently weighs 280 grains) that is obtained from using the RCBS mold. I have never seen it for sale by an online vendor.
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We are talking about two different articles here. The one I
referred to is not the same one referred to by Rule3. The
article I mentioned is "Traditional .45 Colt Loads" in #291,
August 2014 Handloader magazine, page 18. Brian Pearce
developed loads with 22 different powders to achieve aprox
860 fps at std pressure out of a 4 3/4" USFA single action
revolver. All loads used the same bullet that resembles the
traditional .45 Colt factory round. He used a 250 gr RNFP
Lazer Cast by Oregon Trail co. This bullet design is sold by
most on line vendors. It is pictured in the article.
Last edited by alwslate; 08-17-2015 at 02:14 AM.
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08-17-2015, 02:48 AM
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This is 6.2gr of Titegroup at 20 yards standing out of a 25-7. Five shots.
Last edited by series guy; 08-17-2015 at 02:50 AM.
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08-17-2015, 02:49 AM
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Here's the 25-7.
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08-17-2015, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by series guy
Here's the 25-7.
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I don't doubt that using optics such as yours would get me better results. But I don't think I could do it offhand like you did. My hands are not steady enough.
Have you ever gotten chronograph data on that 6.2g Titegroup load?
BTW, did you have to have your gun drilled and tapped for the optic?
Last edited by andyo5; 08-17-2015 at 08:19 AM.
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08-17-2015, 04:13 PM
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Well, I have learned a couple of things in the past few days. Firstly, my 5 1/2" Bisley and my 25-7 both shoot RNFP bullets better than SWC bullets. Secondly, my Bisley shoots faster loads better than slower ones. In fact, it seems the faster the better. I had four rounds of 250g RNFP bullets over 20.5g of H110 available. The Bisley put them into 1/2" at 15 yards. Obviously I can't test that load on a S&W. It also shot the 9.2g Unique load better than the 8.5g Unique load. The 25-7 shot them both about the same.
I am getting the impression that at 'standard' loadings, the 45 Colt has only decent accuracy but at magnum velocities things improve considerably. Addition of optics and use of Titegroup not withstanding, of course.
I do have a 2X Leupold scope on my 7 1/2" Bisley and can tag a prarie dog sized target repeatedly at 100 yards with it.
I tried Brian Pierce's recommended load of 11.5g of HS6, but it did not impress. Next up is 13g of Blue Dot, since I already have a pound of it.
Targets attached:
Last edited by andyo5; 08-17-2015 at 04:15 PM.
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08-17-2015, 05:11 PM
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Other things equal, bullets that get out of the barrel faster often "shoot better" than slower loads appear to. I've always wanted to see how this holds up in a Ransom rest. Others have told me it can be surprising. Of course what matters is what the gun does in your hands, from your normal shooting positions.
If you are using hollow-base RNFP, it doesn't surprise me at all that your guns like that bullet better than SWCs. Might give them a try for your lower velocity loads. And give 800X a chance if you can run it down. I was surprised at how well it worked in my 625 Mountain Gun.
Last edited by M29since14; 08-17-2015 at 05:12 PM.
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08-17-2015, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14
If you are using hollow-base RNFP, it doesn't surprise me at all that your guns like that bullet better than SWCs. Might give them a try for your lower velocity loads. And give 800X a chance if you can run it down. I was surprised at how well it worked in my 625 Mountain Gun.
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None of my bullets are hollow based. I used to have some 800X. I'll look for it.
Thanks.
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08-18-2015, 02:11 PM
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Well, I tried a 12.8g Blue Dot load this morning. Listed maximum for standard pressure was 12.9 grains, so I went a little conservative. Results were unimpressive. I again shot a group with my 8.5g Unique load to verify that I wasn't just having a bad day. Results of this were same as before, 1 1/2" at 15 yards vs. best of 2 1/2" for Blue Dot out of three tries.
I guess this confirms my original choice of Unique and explains why it continues to be so popular for standard pressure loads in this caliber.
The only other powder on my bench that I haven't tried is HP38.
I may be unrealistic in my expectations. My .357 load produces groups half the size of this 45 Colt load. But it is working with a magnum velocity load with a jacketed bullet. If I want to do that with a S&W in 45 Colt, I'd need to buy a 460, which shoots three different cartridges including 45 Colt. Hmmmm.
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08-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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I don't think 1.5-inches at 15 yards is terrible. Sure, an inch would be better.
Have you got your bullets adjusted to cylinder exit-bore diameter, or a bit more? As long are your barrel is smaller than the exit-bores don't worry about that. Make your bullets fit your cylinder and then do some more testing with 800X and 231/HP38.
Last resort would be to try some Remington or Winchester factory swaged hollow-base bullets. Those seem to work in almost any gun at 800 FPS or so.
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08-22-2015, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5
Well, I tried a 12.8g Blue Dot load this morning. Listed maximum for standard pressure was 12.9 grains, so I went a little conservative. Results were unimpressive. I again shot a group with my 8.5g Unique load to verify that I wasn't just having a bad day. Results of this were same as before, 1 1/2" at 15 yards vs. best of 2 1/2" for Blue Dot out of three tries.
I guess this confirms my original choice of Unique and explains why it continues to be so popular for standard pressure loads in this caliber.
The only other powder on my bench that I haven't tried is HP38.
I may be unrealistic in my expectations. My .357 load produces groups half the size of this 45 Colt load. But it is working with a magnum velocity load with a jacketed bullet. If I want to do that with a S&W in 45 Colt, I'd need to buy a 460, which shoots three different cartridges including 45 Colt. Hmmmm.
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I can't tell what/ who's bullet you are using nor how hard the lead is but that Bisley shoots pretty well. My Bisley also likes loads on the hotter side, about 1050 fps.
Why using Blue Dot did you start at the top MAX load? 12.8 might as well be 12.9, just curious is all. Are you using a chrono?
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08-22-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc45
I can't tell what/ who's bullet you are using nor how hard the lead is but that Bisley shoots pretty well. My Bisley also likes loads on the hotter side, about 1050 fps.
Why using Blue Dot did you start at the top MAX load? 12.8 might as well be 12.9, just curious is all. Are you using a chrono?
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Your questions are very timely. I do have two different hardness alloys of the same bullet, and did a comparison shoot yesterday. The softer alloy was better in terma of accuracy. Velocities were just around 1000fps. Chrono data is shown on the attached targets. The data was collected right after these targets were shot and is not for the exact same rounds seen on the targets. I do not know the actual Brinnell hardness. The softer alloy bullets are cheaper to buy. I may try 'upping the ante' with my H110 charge and seeing if the hard alloy comes out better.
I did not go to 'the max' with Blue Dot because it is less consistent to meter in my Dillon than others (except for Unique). I was testing the load in my Model 25-7, and I am assuming that I should stay at SAAMI limits with S&W revolvers. I have heard others say that you can go higher, but none of those folks worked for S&W. I do not wish to blow up any of my guns, even if it would give me some interesting photos to circulate on the internet. If I want to shoot high power loads, that's what Bisleys are for.
Last edited by andyo5; 08-22-2015 at 08:47 AM.
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08-22-2015, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc45
Why using Blue Dot did you start at the top MAX load? 12.8 might as well be 12.9, just curious is all. Are you using a chrono?
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I think I finally understood what you were asking here. Why did I start at the top instead of at a lower load.
It is because I have previously experimented with Blue Dot and found the lower loads to deliver neither accuracy nor power. I knew that Unique was better than the lower Blue Dot loads. So I did not see a point.
My Rugers like Blue Dot loads in the 13.5 range. I wasn't comfprtable loading that for a S&W.
Thanks for your question.
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08-22-2015, 03:12 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Seattle
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Glad to read you are holding that Smith to standard loads, smart! Here are a few questions for you concerning the Smith:
1. have you measured the cylinder throats, all 6 of them.
2. what is your two bullet diameters, do they match or fit snug in the cylinder throats when pushing bullets through the cylinder.
3. Are you casting these bullets or buying them, if buying, who's bullet are you using. If casting, are the bases round and flat without imperfections and are they even weight. (I weigh each of mine and separate them into weight lots. This allows me to shoot bullets very close to the same weight each time out regardless of the same powder charge).
4. what lube is being used and are you getting much leading
5. knowing our bullet size, its hardness, our velocity and our guns cylinder throat sizes, are the holy grail of information when shooting cast as velocity and hardness work hand in hand along with cylinder throat sizes and bullet diameter. Once we know all four questions, we can tailor make loads OUR revolver likes...
As for that HP 38 powder; that and Win 231 can be loaded with same data. So far, My recent purchase 625-7 likes 7.1 gr of 231with the 250gr Oregon trail bullet giving me much better accuracy than Unique.
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GC45
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08-22-2015, 04:21 PM
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Throats are all reamed to 0.452".
I will try the 231 load. Thanks!
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08-23-2015, 03:33 PM
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Not knowing your particular bullet, my load may not be to your bullets liking meaning; If your bullets are very hard lead, you will likely have to bump my charge a few tenths IE; 7.4 and 7.6 works well for me with the real hard stuff.
Best of Luck!
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GC45
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