Originally Posted by Magload

Using Hodgdon Data for Varget and 55gr V-Max bullet I can't get my COL to match Hodgdon data. They call for a 55gr SPR SP and a COL of 2.200. Hornady calls for a COL of 2.230 with their 55 gr V-Max but they do not list Varget powder. My dummy load, first rifle load ever, is at 2.233 and just fits the mag and chambers fine. Drops into the Dillion Case gage nice also. I think I am fine just needed some reassurance before loading these up.

Rule3 gave you the info, but I thought I'd confirm from Hornady 9th . . . their test data for 55gr Vmax used COL=2.250, a number often used so that it will be .001 under mag length . . . though many 223s can handle thousandths more. All other Hornady 55gr bullets used COL=2.200 (except 55gr GMX=2.185"), a number which suits the cannelure location on many of these bullets.

There's no issue using the shorter COL=2.330, but for magazine feeding and using other test data it's probably a good idea to got to "mag length" (2.250) for those bullets.

The second thing I am not sure of is it seams like the full length resizing die is making the neck to small. I am showing out side neck dia should be .253 and it is .256 before full length resizing my once fires brass from my MP15. After sizing it is .246 and a bullet will just verily fit after chamfering and deburring. What am I missing?

Frankly I've never measured. As mentioned above, flat base bullets will be a bit more difficult to seat, but as long as the neck inside is chamfered a bit they should go in without damage. If you see copper scrapings, either make sure the chamfer is sufficient or then worry about the die being bad.

Don

Originally Posted by Rule3

I have Hornady #8 not the new one.

The 55 V max in that manual has a 2.250 COL and does list Varget.??

I have not used the V Max but is certainly seems like a longer bullet so the COL would be a tad longer.

Hodgdon data is not for the V max and usually Hornady data does not match the powder company any way.

Even with bullets with a cannelure and trimmed to length it often does not match Hornady data. There powder data is usally very conservative to start, but heck they make the bullet and tested it. I use their low end for a regular 55 gr bullet.

It is not a BT bullet so it will be tight and hard to start, you need to hold as you guide it up into the die.

Do you need the Hornady Varget data??

Originally Posted by Rule3

Manual #8 Hornady has for Varget start 22.8 and max of 26.4 grains. COL 2.250

The little difference in COL is not going to matter

I had a long thread (elsewhere) on the variance in H335 between Hornady and Hodgdon way, way different!

Originally Posted by Magload

Thanks for the load from the #8 book. That is a little milder then the Hodgdon data but that is fine with me. I can watch the chrono readings and see where I am as I approch max. I suspect I will see better groups with loads in the middle of the range. Don

Originally Posted by Magload

My Hornady manual is #9 and they list Varget fr their 52 and 53 V-Max bullets but not their 55gr. . . .

Originally Posted by Twoboxer

If that's true, your Hornady 9th is different than mine lol.

Could you check again on page 152, 5th from the bottom ?

Originally Posted by Geo. T.

Your where you should be on the neck tension. In fact sometimes I polish the expander button enough to reduce it a little.

I load all of the 5.56 to 2.30 because it will feed in all of the Magazines I have. The crimp grove it often above the case neck but since you can not get close to the lands in any AR chamber that I know of I just load them all that length.

The tip about other powders metering better was right on. In fact most AR shooters load a volume of ammo that eventually leads them to ball powders. Ball powder and a good measure will reduce the time spent reloading a bunch!

Originally Posted by Magload

This Varget meters terrible in my RCBS 1500 Chargemaster. . . . I would tap the measuring pan to remove some and reweigh then take the tweezers and remove or add till I had 23gr on the nose and watch a scale a bit then put it is the case. . . .

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

I don't hear to many talk about adding powder to their loads if light........

but I have old equipment and one of my investment was a ......

Trickler.

After a few turns it is primed and ready to drop a few grains at a time. Heck, I don't even know if they are still made, with all the battery and electric powder throwers, now a days.

Originally Posted by scooter123

Magload, I've resigned myself to using tweezers with Varget. I find it interesting and thank you for posting that the Chargemaster also failed with this powder. You saved me a bunch of money because I was considering purchasing one just for Varget. Unfortunately the 60 Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet just won't shoot under 2 inches with CFE223 at ANY charge weight, so I've resigned myself to using Varget with this bullet.

Now a note about accuracy. IMO unless you get very very lucky or spend megabucks for a Match Grade AR you will be wasting your time setting your bullet a specific distance from the rifling. Because to get under 1 MOA on the AR platform requires a free floated barrel built specifically for Match level accuracy, a fit between receiver and barrel extension that is near perfect, and someone assembling the rifle who knows how to do it correctly. It's why Match grade AR's tend to start around 3 grand and go up quickly from that starting price. It's also why some of us build our own rifles.

At this point you should only be concerning yourself with the factors that are most cirtical for accuracy in a Factory Rifle. That is the powder used, using a quality bullet matched to your rifling, and finding that charge level that gives you the most accurate result. After you get to that point you can start fiddling with the setback from the rifling but in a factory AR I think you'll conclude that it's not worth the effort. I'll also tell you that the AR I find the most fun to shoot isn't the one with the high power scope mounted to it, it's my 16 inch 300 Blackout with basic flip up iron sights. Yeah, I only group around 1.5 inches at 50 yards with this setup but it's 1.5 inches that have been earned by paying attention to technique and repeating the Sight Picture for every shot.

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

"Perfect Ammo" is nice to think of but even if everything is 100%, working correctly, sun at your back, no wind and the starts are all in line................

I still have my breathing and heart beat to master !!

Tight groups and can't wait to see a target with some holes in it.

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

I am lot saying that I am old but our "Special force" guys were called a "Stat team".............
One guy with a M60 did the "John Wayne" thing with the ammo belt across his off fore hand.
Just did not want to be near a M79 when fired if a branch was ten feet in front of it !!

There were only three of us to clean, inspect and load all the weapons for the CB Battalion. Lets just say I got pretty good at cleaning a 1911, back in those days. We took them back if 90% clean.

Never on a rifle team but I did sneak out and qualify as Expert on Guam, the only time I got to shoot with the guys.
All the other shooting was test work on weapons and ammo.....
no scores were kept.

Favorite weapon to fire.......
45 "Grease gun".


No.......
A "Re-up" is out of the question !!

Originally Posted by mikld

Didn't see it mentioned, but OAL has no relationship to powder. Your first posts seemed to say you were concerned with Varget loads and OAL. OAL is bullet dependent and has very little to do with the powder inside the case...

Originally Posted by Magload

No, no concern on powder I may have not wrote what I ment that happens. I did notice that max load is listed as a compressed load . I started at 23.0gr and went up by .5gr with Hornady manual listing 26.4 which filled the case up into the shoulder area. I can not see how Hodgdon planned on getting 27.5grs in the case as 26.8 is full to the top. Don

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

I only use a compressed load if it gives me the best accuracy over all of my loads tested.
98% of the time a powder up to the case's shoulder will do just fine with a little faster burning extruded or Ball powder.

I generally try for at least a 80% volume powder load, so the primer is covered with powder in all positions.

I will drop down to a 70% case volume for light target loads when loading at the rifle range, on a level rifle or one slightly elevated, for slow fire.

I am not saying that a compressed charge is not needed.......
just that I have learned that some times a 90% load or one going from 3680 fps down to just 2750 fps can be down right accurate.

Same with my 3.5" 9mm;
115gr plated from 1263 fps down to a tack driver at only 984 fps.

Tight groups.

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

I missed this wonderful tale of accuracy while out bass fishing for four days.

FOR AN AR-15 rifle: an overall cartridge length up to 2.260" works in metal mags. I have 3 AR 15s and about 10 different mags made by 4 different manufacturers. If cases are trimmed a little short or a little long the mouth of the case will not be centered in the cannelure. Cartridge case needs inside neck deburring to prevent damage to the bullet jacket. I have never crimped case necks except for lead bullets in rifles or hand gun ammo.

FOR A BOLT ACTION RIFLE: the COL per your reloading data should be followed. I have had 223 reloaded ammo that shot great in an AR15 without any problems but the bullet hit the rifling in both a stock factory Rem 700 and a custom barreled S&W 1500. I reseated the bullets to 2.230 and bolt operation was very easy.

I have used H322 and Accurate Arms 2230 or 2015 powders with excellent results on my Dillon 450 / 550. Using either an RCBS 510 or Dillon electronic digital scale, I throw 3 to 5 rifle charges and weigh those charges.

For 223, assume a charge of 24 grains. I throw 3 charges and weigh for 72.0 ± 0.1 grains. When I get the 3 charge weight I want, I'll throw a second 3 charge set to verify the powder setting. My powder measures have built in baffles, I refill the powder measure on the ram upstroke when powder is down to 1-1/2" from the cylinder bottom, and tap the powder cylinder 5 or 6 times to get the 'new' powder settled. I just don't see the need for tweezers.

Back in 1985, I did a "Match Load" test with a 222 Rem and 25-06 rifles. Using the same bullets, powder and die sets (correct for caliber), I crafted 10 carefully prepared rounds in each caliber with hand-weighed powder charges and matching brass. I also loaded 10 rounds, each caliber, right off my Dillon with mismatched brass. Hand weighed charges shot 1-1/2" + groups, Dillon loads shot under 1/2".

When new, the custom heavy barreled 25-06 consistently shot 0.3" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. That test satisfied me that my Dillon powder measures did the job. CLOSE ENOUGH ! !

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

I missed this wonderful tale of accuracy while out bass fishing for four days.

FOR AN AR-15 rifle: an overall cartridge length up to 2.260" works in metal mags. I have 3 AR 15s and about 10 different mags made by 4 different manufacturers. If cases are trimmed a little short or a little long the mouth of the case will not be centered in the cannelure.

For any given bullet with a cannelure, there is a COL that will center the case mouth in cases of a specific length. Obviously, the larger the variation in case lengths or final COL, the more likely cannelure alignment will be missed. I'm not sure why that's important, nor what it has to do with seating to mag length?

Cartridge case needs inside neck deburring to prevent damage to the bullet jacket. I have never crimped case necks except for lead bullets in rifles or hand gun ammo.

FOR A BOLT ACTION RIFLE: the COL per your reloading data should be followed. I have had 223 reloaded ammo that shot great in an AR15 without any problems but the bullet hit the rifling in both a stock factory Rem 700 and a custom barreled S&W 1500. I reseated the bullets to 2.230 and bolt operation was very easy.

Confused here too. If the rounds that shot great from the AR had COLs at mag length or shorter, how could those bullets touch the lands of two factory bolt actions presumably built to SAAMI spec?

Alternatively, if those rounds were longer than mag length and single shot from the AR, what is the significance of them touching the lands of the bolt actions? Seems unusual, but it would only indicate the bolts have tighter chambers than your AR.

I have used H322 and Accurate Arms 2230 or 2015 powders with excellent results on my Dillon 450 / 550. Using either an RCBS 510 or Dillon electronic digital scale, I throw 3 to 5 rifle charges and weigh those charges.

For 223, assume a charge of 24 grains. I throw 3 charges and weigh for 72.0 ± 0.1 grains. When I get the 3 charge weight I want, I'll throw a second 3 charge set to verify the powder setting. My powder measures have built in baffles, I refill the powder measure on the ram upstroke when powder is down to 1-1/2" from the cylinder bottom, and tap the powder cylinder 5 or 6 times to get the 'new' powder settled. I just don't see the need for tweezers.

Back in 1985, I did a "Match Load" test with a 222 Rem and 25-06 rifles. Using the same bullets, powder and die sets (correct for caliber), I crafted 10 carefully prepared rounds in each caliber with hand-weighed powder charges and matching brass. I also loaded 10 rounds, each caliber, right off my Dillon with mismatched brass. Hand weighed charges shot 1-1/2" + groups, Dillon loads shot under 1/2".

Interesting test. Seems to indicate your Dillon PM is much more consistent than your scale or hand-weighing technique.

You are also fairly unique in finding that consistent cases shoot less consistently . . . not only that, but dramatically less consistently . . . than random selections. Most reloaders report a completely different experience.

When new, the custom heavy barreled 25-06 consistently shot 0.3" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. That test satisfied me that my Dillon powder measures did the job. CLOSE ENOUGH ! !