Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-11-2015, 11:42 AM
skrazo's Avatar
skrazo skrazo is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: gone
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 801
Liked 2,740 Times in 562 Posts
Default Squib Loads

Took my 638 and 642 to the range yesterday. Fired 50 rounds of 158gr LSWC, 3.5 gr Red Dot, WSP primers. Had about 8 squibs. Both guns did it. One finally stuck about half way out of the end of the barrel of the 638 (easy to remove with pliers).

I have determined the culprit to be "many times cycled brass" (I have no idea how many times). Since I have about 400 pcs of this stuff, ............. is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable? And no ..... I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating. I am seating and crimping in separate operations. Sorry for the long post, ..... just trying to anticipate questions that may come from responders.

Comments please .......... skrazo
__________________
gone
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-11-2015, 11:50 AM
JBnTx's Avatar
JBnTx JBnTx is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 415
Likes: 315
Liked 357 Times in 169 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skrazo View Post
....... is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable?
When they split lengthwise starting at the neck they're no good.
Or the mouth is damaged enough to interfere with bullet seating or chambering.

Up to that point, load them.

I doubt your problem is "worn out" brass.

.

Last edited by JBnTx; 09-11-2015 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 09-11-2015, 12:05 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 5,863
Likes: 161
Liked 3,063 Times in 1,608 Posts
Default

3.5grs of Red with a 158gr Lswc out of my 686 6" is my most accurate loading for this weight bullet with a cci standard primer, that does 753 fps.

In my J frame snub the same bullet will clear the muzzle with no problems at just 571 fps with either Bullseye or IMR 4227 powders.

I do use a medium crimp on my loads, though............
my bullets do not turn after loading !!

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 09-26-2015 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-11-2015, 01:28 PM
gwpercle's Avatar
gwpercle gwpercle is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 2,727
Likes: 1,100
Liked 1,887 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default

The usual cause of a "squib" load is a low charge of powder. Keep an eye on the level measured into each case.
I reload target 38 special loads like your's until the case cracks or splits, they generally last for many loading's. Red Dot doesn't need a lot of crimp to burn...they do well with little or no crimp in this instance. If the crimp didn't allow a complete burn you will have a fair amount of unburned powder left in the case...is there unburn't powder in those cases ? If not,
I'm suspecting it may be powder charge related.
Gary
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 09-11-2015, 01:36 PM
ajgunner ajgunner is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: N.W. Orygun
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Liked 84 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Brass is not going to make for a squib. You either have some punk primers or your powder charge is either low or none at all.
__________________
"Tastes just like chicken"
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 09-11-2015, 01:55 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escaped WI, Omaha NE
Posts: 7,222
Likes: 3,416
Liked 4,102 Times in 2,133 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
The usual cause of a "squib" load is a low charge of powder. Keep an eye on the level measured into each case.
I reload target 38 special loads like your's until the case cracks or splits, they generally last for many loading's. Red Dot doesn't need a lot of crimp to burn...they do well with little or no crimp in this instance. If the crimp didn't allow a complete burn you will have a fair amount of unburned powder left in the case...is there unburn't powder in those cases ? If not,
I'm suspecting it may be powder charge related.
Gary
A related cause is contamination. Can be melted bullet lube, can be grease left in the case. It might not take out the full charge, or even half. At less than 4 grains it really won't take much to do this.
__________________
it just needs more voltage

Last edited by venomballistics; 09-11-2015 at 01:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-11-2015, 02:53 PM
skrazo's Avatar
skrazo skrazo is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: gone
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 801
Liked 2,740 Times in 562 Posts
Default

For the above shooting, I reloaded 150 rounds of 38's (and 50 rounds of 357's [fired them the same day] using WSP's for all). None of the 357's squibbed (Bullseye powder). So far, I have "disassembled about 50 of the remaining 100 rounds of 38's, weighing and recorded the amount of powder found in each cartridge --- all have been correct so far. I initially suspected the Lee Powder Measure (cartridge type), it appears to be doing OK. Will have to look closely at the fired 38 cases ... they could have unburned powder and I just did not notice (did not keep the squibs separate, but I do put the fired brass back into the plastic loading boxes, so they are 'mouth up'). The powder (Red Dot) is a one pound cannister, less than one year old. I always clean primer pockets and just "look" thru the flash holes -- could be some of them had a chunk of tumbling media in them?

Will report further as I progress on examining them. Thanks for replies thus far.........skrazo
__________________
gone

Last edited by skrazo; 09-11-2015 at 02:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-11-2015, 03:08 PM
Inusuit Inusuit is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SE Wyoming
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 1,428
Liked 1,532 Times in 576 Posts
Default

I have trouble thinking of a reason that cases could be responsible for squibs. Something else is going in, IMHO. I reload on a Dillion 550 for three different calibers and have, knock on wood, never had a squib. I tumble cases before I deprime.

As with other posters, I suspect faulty powder or primers since it appears your measure is working correctly.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-11-2015, 03:36 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escaped WI, Omaha NE
Posts: 7,222
Likes: 3,416
Liked 4,102 Times in 2,133 Posts
Default

Still suspecting contamination as a possibility.
I have a fair pile of heavy 44 mag of various flavors going back to the late 1900's
Between moving 3 times in the past 7 years and all the funky storage conditions that go with it, this stuff is showing signs of lube migration and powder contamination.
No all of them put out all they were loaded with.
in some cases I can find a ring of unburned H110 trapped in lube where the base of the bullet was.
Fortunately, I never really cared for bunny puff loads. There is nothing with less than 10 grains of powder. even if I lose 3 grains to melted lube, I still have at least 7 on the job. Plenty to get anything out the scary end and on its way even though it'll be a bit short of design intent.

Ive been switching over to coated cast which should mitigate this issue and make loads better suited to surviving storage with grace.

I have a feeling your situation is kinda similar in that your loads check out under inspection.
you only have to lose about a grain and a half to be down into the range of a 25 autos charge range.
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-11-2015, 03:36 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 17,508
Likes: 7,105
Liked 8,025 Times in 3,949 Posts
Default

You broke down the unfired ones, had 8 squibs and all the others fired OK?? There is of course no way to tell on what was in those 8.

The ones you broke down, did they all have exactly 3.5 grains??

You are using the LEE disc system? Yes? I do not know what "cartridge" type is?

3.5 gr is the Alliant load so I would guesstimate that your answer lies in the powder measure, it either needs to be cleaned, the charge hole did not fully come forward over the drop hole, short stroke or something. I use the LEE disc measure.

I doubt it is brass related.

If you size after cleaning then the sizing pin will clear the flash hole of any media.

The testing of other powder (BE) and 357 Brass just complicates the original issue.
__________________
Still Running Against The Wind
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 09-11-2015, 04:23 PM
Twoboxer's Avatar
Twoboxer Twoboxer is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 835
Likes: 238
Liked 539 Times in 296 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skrazo View Post
. . . Fired 50 rounds of 158gr LSWC, 3.5 gr Red Dot, WSP primers. Had about 8 squibs. Both guns did it. . . .

I have determined the culprit to be "many times cycled brass". . . is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable? And no ..... I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating. I am seating and crimping in separate operations. Sorry for the long post, ..... just trying to anticipate questions that may come from responders.

Comments please .......... skrazo
As others are, I'd encourage you to look elsewhere for the source of the problem.

How did you determine that overused brass caused the problem? For this to be true you would have to mention seeing something that you haven't reported. If it's just "can't think of anything else", that's not enough.

Why do some of your hopefully properly resized cases shave lead during seating while others are so wide the bullets can spin after seating? What press and procedures are you using?

Continuing the point above, what is the source of your bullets? Is it possible they are not uniformly sized?

How did you determine your powder charge was consistently 3.5gr? Squibs almost inevitably require almost no powder or contaminated powder.

Just trying to give you some places to look based on what you reported . . . but the Vegas odds are heavily in favor of no powder or contaminated powder.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 09-11-2015, 09:23 PM
joeintexas's Avatar
joeintexas joeintexas is offline
US Veteran
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 2,704
Likes: 4,613
Liked 3,455 Times in 1,356 Posts
Default

I too was puzzled by some of the loads shaved the lead while others allowed the bullets to freely rotate, I don't think either situation is desirable. I really doubt the problem is your brass, if it's not split or damaged otherwise I can't see those being your problem. I would suspect the crimping. Bad primers or lack of powder maybe.

Last edited by joeintexas; 09-11-2015 at 09:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-11-2015, 10:57 PM
bmcgilvray's Avatar
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is offline
SWCA Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,443
Likes: 2,409
Liked 1,933 Times in 448 Posts
Default

It happens.



Loading plated bullets with too light a charge of Red Dot in the .455 out of deference to a circa 1899 revolver.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 09-11-2015, 11:43 PM
Geo. T. Geo. T. is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: East Texas
Posts: 151
Likes: 47
Liked 91 Times in 54 Posts
Default My Guess!

My Guess is that you need to take a long look at your powder measure. If you polish the brass before resizing the decappeing pin will clear the flash hole. If the bullet lobe has been thermal cycled in a trunk several times the bullet lube could be a factor.

My guess is contaminated primers or a large variation in charge weight are the problem. I have found that with light loads a tight crimp is a good thing. -If the seated bullet is the right diameter and will rotate with finger pressure you need to check your expander. I find in 38 that some mil spec brass they seat hard but that some commercial brass having thinner walls can be somewhat loose. I chuck up the expander and 000 steel wool it to my specs!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-12-2015, 12:00 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is online now
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 20,862
Likes: 24,509
Liked 16,610 Times in 8,317 Posts
Default It ain't the brass.....

Skrazy:

If the brass isn't split, bulged or damaged in any way and it sizes and loads a bullet and chambers, it's good brass.

Bum primers?

Very low charge weight? Or MISSING powder charges? A primer alone has enough power to push a bullet into the barrel.

Plugged flash hole in the primer pocket? Walnut shells can do it as can other tumbling media.

Sometimes it's good to tap on a powder measure and hopper when its in the fill position break up bridging. A baffle helps that too, but I still like to knock it a couple times. Besides breaking up bridging if done consistently it can also give more uniform powder throws.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 09-12-2015 at 12:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-12-2015, 12:21 AM
skrazo's Avatar
skrazo skrazo is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: gone
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 801
Liked 2,740 Times in 562 Posts
Default Recap and answering some questions

I probably have provided too much information.

1) I mentioned the 357 loads only because all primers came from the same box (38 & 357). I felt this eliminated primers as a culprit.

2) So far, I have removed 50 bullets, weighed the powder charge of each on a beam type (Lyman O'Haus) scale. They ranged from 3.42 gr to 3.46 gr. Does not sound out of tolerance to me. Will do the remaining 50 as time permits.

3) Powder measure is a Lee disk type. Sometimes the "red dots" make it a bit harder to cycle.

4) Press is a Rock Chucker.

5) No unburned powder found in any of the fired cases.

6) The reason I suspect the cases is if the bullet is loose (only the crimp holding it), it would seem the powder does not have time to build up sufficient pressure before the bullet starts moving. Some chronographing a few months ago yielded an average muzzle velocity of 660 fps for these loads from the 642 and 638.

7)I'm going to reload about 20 rounds, making sure the bullet/case fit is tight, and fire them. Go from there.

8) Will keep pursuing this until I get it figured out. Once again ..... thanks for the replies ....... keep em' comin'.
__________________
gone
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-12-2015, 12:22 AM
Big Stick Big Stick is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 340
Likes: 281
Liked 421 Times in 155 Posts
Default

I do not have any experience with Lee powder measures, however, I do know that with my Hornady measure, when I use a large flake powder like RD or 700X, it can hang up and almost clog the outbound end.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-12-2015, 01:31 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 6,068
Likes: 140
Liked 2,990 Times in 1,551 Posts
Default

1) If you have bullets that are loose in the case with only the crimp retaining them you have a problem in your procedure or dies. Because in any caliber that doesn't use a heeled bullet your cases should provide enough Neck Tension to keep the bullet tight enough you need pliers to move it by hand.

What you have described is cases that have ZERO Neck Tension and I suspect that either they weren't sized at all or the flaring die was not set up properly. Either that or you were loading with cases that already had split necks. BTW, I have had cases split when pressing in the bullets and when that happens those cases get set aside to pull the components and have the cases thrown out in the trash. I have never ever tried to get "one last firing" on a split case, it just isn't worth the hassle with extraction and chamber fouling that would result from doing this.

2) ANYTIME you are working with a load that is distinctly light you need to do some testing for Position Sensitivity to insure you haven't created a load that can produce a squib. Personally I would normally consider a load producing 700 fps. to be reasonably free of any risk of a squib with lead bullets but with some powders this may NOT be a safe assumption. As I discovered with SR7625 at one time, the charge tested had enough variation in velocity to produce velocities ranging between 400 and 700 fps, all dependent on how the revolver was held prior to firing.

3) I started out loading with a Lee powder measure and have migrated to the RCBS Competition Powder Measure for a reason. Cheap Powder Measures just aren't worth the money spent on them and the RCBS is worth every penny spent.

4) I do a 50 piece Capability Study on any new powder I'm looking at using before loading one single round. Because some powders just to not meter well in any powder measure and it's best to know that ahead of time instead of finding it out the "hard way". If you have a powder charge of only 3 1/2 grains and the Standard Deviation indicates a potential variation of 1/2 grain it's just asking for a Squib to rely on your powder measure to set each charge. What you should be doing is hand weighing every single powder charge.

5) Finally I have to question your sanity a bit. You had a total of 8 squibs and didn't think it sensible to pack up and head home with the first squib??? The best result of firing into a squib lodged in a barrel is a ruined barrel, the worst result can result in a trip to the hospital in the back of an ambulance.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-12-2015, 04:32 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 3,863
Likes: 1,034
Liked 2,485 Times in 1,317 Posts
Default

Are you roll crimping the case mouth into a crimp goove on the SWC
bullet? A roll crimp should help to promote complete combustion of
your powder.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-12-2015, 06:32 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Squib Loads  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,639
Likes: 141
Liked 2,001 Times in 875 Posts
Default

3.5 is the maximum load for Red Dot for 38 Special. 3.8 grains is +P. I use red dot and your exact bullet and load 3.2 grains. Don't have a chronograph but the 3.2 is right in the middle of the road for that recipe.

Dumb question since I'm new at reloading, but have you checked your scale with check weights? I do that before every reloading session. I weigh every charge and red dot fluctuates pretty wildly for me. I have the thrower set for 3.2 grains and 8 times out of 10 I have to use the trickler to get it up to the 3.2. When the powder is gone (and it almost is) I'm not gonna use it anymore. Just doesn't meter that well.

New as I am, I guess my opinion doesn't matter much, but squibs mean not enough power to leave the barrel. So it's either too light a charge (or none at all) or the case tension is so loose that the pressure isn't enough to really launch the bullet. And I gotta think that there would be evidence of that in the case and well as in the cylinder. Do you check every case before you seat the bullet? Do you load on a progressive press and maybe those 8 rounds didn't get any powder at all?

Last edited by kbm6893; 09-12-2015 at 08:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-12-2015, 08:24 AM
blujax01's Avatar
blujax01 blujax01 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: C-Bus
Posts: 6,339
Likes: 4,311
Liked 4,883 Times in 2,075 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skrazo View Post

...3) Powder measure is a Lee disk type. Sometimes the "red dots" make it a bit harder to cycle.
...
So you have had issues with the powder measure hanging up with this particular powder? This, I suspect, is the root cause.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-12-2015, 09:26 AM
aurora40 aurora40 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 242
Likes: 30
Liked 80 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skrazo View Post
I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating.
The same brass that shaves lead will result in a bullet that is loose and turns after seating? Or some pieces do one and some do the other? If it's mixed brass, I've noticed there are pretty clear differences in brass thickness. As an example, Remington revolver brass for me seems super thin. It sizes very easily, and has the least neck tension vs the other brass I have.

If the same piece of brass shaves lead and then leaves the bullet loose, perhaps it still has a bit of a crimp in the end and needs the mouth opened up more? I find the "M-style" neck expanders that Lyman, Redding, and I believe RCBS and Hornady use are much better for seating lead than the belling type die Lee uses.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-12-2015, 09:53 AM
Engineer1911's Avatar
Engineer1911 Engineer1911 is online now
US Veteran
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 4,366
Likes: 4,164
Liked 3,136 Times in 1,524 Posts
Default

As a former Lee equipment user, your powder disk is not returning completely to the fill position, you don't have the powder measure at least 50% full, and you may have significant variation in case length. My suggestion is that you check your powder measure for smooth operation and full cycling of the disk front to rear. My experience with Lee disk powder measures was that they functioned, had to be kept spotlessly clean, and there was no correlation between the list powder charge and the actual powder charge.

Military brass has the thickest walls and R-P have the thinnest. I have had 38 spl loads that the bullet would turn easily, but were accurate without any squibs.
__________________
S&WCA # 2533, Inactive

Last edited by Engineer1911; 09-12-2015 at 09:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-12-2015, 10:01 AM
reddog81 reddog81 is online now
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: IA
Posts: 602
Likes: 116
Liked 410 Times in 241 Posts
Default

What's the diameter of the bullets? Is there large variance from bullet to bullet?

I would guess that you are afraid of working the brass too much and that is causing you to not expand enough and not crimp enough. If properly expanded you should not be shaving lead unless some of the bullets are oversized. If properly crimped the bullets should not move after crimped. Heck, the bullets shouldn't be able to move after being seated unless the bullets are undersized.

I have .357 brass that has been loaded 20+ times and it still functions like normal.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 09-12-2015, 10:19 AM
Krell1 Krell1 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 374
Liked 1,924 Times in 757 Posts
Default

Simple reason for a squib, and the only one I can think of, is your load is too light. Really light. I load .38Sp with a mid range load and shoot it in a Model 52. I load cases over and over until they split. I've accidentally loaded a split case or two not noticing until after they were loaded. I shot them anyway, usually in a revolver, and tossed them out afterwards. Never a squib from a bad case. Light or no load is the only cause.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #26  
Old 09-12-2015, 10:24 AM
Collo Rosso's Avatar
Collo Rosso Collo Rosso is online now
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 584
Liked 1,242 Times in 496 Posts
Default

You mentioned pulling the rounds left and found proper powder charges so I'll assume the measure is working. The bullet rotating after seating caught my attention also. Case tension alone, as scooter123 said, should have you looking for pliers to turn a bullet. No case tension, no pressure. Either your bullet is undersized or your belling plug is way to deep.
The first time I switched from 44 special to 44 magnum I forgot all about the belling plug going deeper into the case. The first case I belled I knew what I did. A .430 bullet almost disappeared into the case!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 09-16-2015, 12:00 AM
Jboutfishn Jboutfishn is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: State Of Jefferson, Ca
Posts: 460
Likes: 91
Liked 148 Times in 88 Posts
Default

Never had "1" squib, I had 10. Brain fade! I had not charged a row of cases in the loading block.

Just sayin.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-17-2015, 09:02 PM
ggibson511960 ggibson511960 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 215
Likes: 126
Liked 99 Times in 68 Posts
Default Occam's Razor

The gun went bang and pushed the bullet part way down the chute, but not enough energy to clear. What's the most likely, and simplest explanation? If it happened to me I would assume no powder (simple operator reloading error) with other possibilities trailing a distant second, including component irregularity. Assembling ammunition with Lee equipment invites a host of goblins to vex your efforts unless you concentrate like a monk on a desert island. The lease imperfection in technique and something goes awry. All my Lee stuff has been given away to hapless former friends. A faulty primer would either fire (maybe with less accuracy) or not. Bad brass not yielding enough bullet pull would create inaccuracy, but an outright squib?? That would be a dangerous load recipe and yours was reasonable handbook stuff.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 09-17-2015, 09:52 PM
Geo. T. Geo. T. is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: East Texas
Posts: 151
Likes: 47
Liked 91 Times in 54 Posts
Default Lee Disk!

I have one of those powder measures on a Lee 1000 Pro I got in a trade. That and their primer feed are the reasons that It's seldom used. It will make a popping sound when it short charges or fails to load at all. I loaded 500 357 magnum loads and then found this trate. I weighed all 500 and found 38 that were very light or no powder. I was juat lucky that I was loading a stiff charge of H-110 so that the scale pointed them out!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 09-18-2015, 01:36 PM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 15,902
Likes: 6,681
Liked 8,433 Times in 3,839 Posts
Default

I'm not familiar with Red Dot, but some bulky powders will "bridge" in the powder drop tube, and leave a case mostly empty, but the next case usually gets a "extra" charge. That's the reason for the "Stop and eyeball every single case in the loading block" before setting any bullets in. Brain fade happens to all of us, that's why we must develop good procedures, to catch our brain fades.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Last edited by H Richard; 09-18-2015 at 01:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-26-2015, 01:11 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 5,863
Likes: 161
Liked 3,063 Times in 1,608 Posts
Default

Hope you find the problem..........

In a auto loader ball powder will flow a LOT better than any flake or extruded powder will.
One reason I like my single stage, which lets me inspect all cases with a powder charge dropped into them, in a loading tray and a good light source, over head.

You might try Bullseye powder if you have any or a fast Ball powder and see if the problem stops.

A loose fitting bullet will fire but it will probably not group with the other bullets due to loss of fps if at 25 yards or more.
With a tight die, your bullets should be all loose or all tight, unless you have poor bullet dia. quality.

I will put money on either powder "Bridging" or primer hole obstruction as the culprit.

Primer hole problems are a sign of improper loading steps taken. Correct this, before you go to priming the case.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-27-2015, 12:26 AM
rg1 rg1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 96
Likes: 1
Liked 34 Times in 23 Posts
Default

I have seen squib loads twice from others.38 Specials. You could see some bullets in the air and they fell to the ground in a few yards. In all instances of blooper or squib loads the cause was LOOSE bullets in the case mouth. You could push the bullet deeper with finger pressure. In both cases the combo .357 Mag/38 Special sizing die would not size the brass down enough to grip the bullet tightly. Some 38 brass especially Remington has too thin walls. If your expander die is doing nothing then you may have problems with loose bullet tension. Could also be too small bullet diameter. The long .38 case with either small charges or slow powders, the primer will start the bullet moving forward before the powder develops full pressure. One tip I learned from another reloader is that to use a 9MM sizing die which is only a couple thousandths smaller. Size with your .38 die, then run all cases into the 9MM die to just where the bullet would stop. Expand normally and you'll have good neck tension. Don't like combo dies like .357/38 or 40 S&W/10MM as you can have neck tension issues with thin brass. Another thing to try would be raise the barrel to settle all powder next to the primer and not the bullet. I don't like that idea though and another fix is necessary. A bullet crimp will not fix a loose bullet in the case mouth.

Last edited by rg1; 09-27-2015 at 12:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-27-2015, 01:04 AM
one eye joe's Avatar
one eye joe one eye joe is offline
US Veteran
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,845
Likes: 2,204
Liked 1,743 Times in 738 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBnTx View Post
When they split lengthwise starting at the neck they're no good.
Or the mouth is damaged enough to interfere with bullet seating or chambering.

Up to that point, load them.

I doubt your problem is "worn out" brass.

.
I AGREE. I WILL BE SURPRISED IF YOUR PROBLEM IS TRACEABLE TO YOUR BRASS. ANY PROBLEM THAT I HAVE HAD WITH SQUIBS, THROUGH DECADES OF SHOOTING RELOADS (NONE MY OWN---LOADED BY MY LGS) HAS BEEN DUE TO AN ERROR IN THE LOADING OF POWDER. THE CARTRIDGES ALWAYS LOOK BEAUTIFUL…...
__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Last edited by one eye joe; 09-27-2015 at 01:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-29-2015, 07:42 PM
Johnrh Johnrh is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 35
Likes: 7
Liked 20 Times in 9 Posts
Default

The only round I have problems with squibs is 38 specials. For some reason I don't get powder in them. Have no idea why. If it was hung up in the 550b powder funnel I would get the next a double load. Never have those. I now watch every case to make sure there is powder in them. I also load for 380 45 223 and 30-06 and never had a squib. It's like understanding ******* physics.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:57 AM
Imissedagain's Avatar
Imissedagain Imissedagain is offline
US Veteran
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 116
Likes: 1
Liked 44 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Please pay more attention in every step of the reloading process.
Hate to loose good people that way.
Try scooping and weighing to eliminate that variable.
Refrain from rapid fire and make sure there is a hole in the target after each shot.
There is a distinct sound and feeling in your hands when you are squibing.
That means pay attention when shooting each round.
My son was told that the most dangerous place with firearms is at the range.
I had one squib in my loading years.
I use a flashlight to check each powdered case.
One is too many.
Stay safe and those around you as well.
I don't consider any aspect related to firearms a hobby..... it's a way of life.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:52 AM
jonnnyboy jonnnyboy is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 70
Likes: 139
Liked 60 Times in 28 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo. T. View Post
I have one of those powder measures on a Lee 1000 Pro I got in a trade. That and their primer feed are the reasons that It's seldom used. It will make a popping sound when it short charges or fails to load at all. I loaded 500 357 magnum loads and then found this trate. I weighed all 500 and found 38 that were very light or no powder. I was juat lucky that I was loading a stiff charge of H-110 so that the scale pointed them out!
I noticed my Lee adjustable disc measure making a popping noise and then began finding uncharged cases as well. One of the problems I have while reloading is getting enough light on the cases to see the charge. I used the following: Flexible LED Light-Assorted Colors -Teal, Raspberry, Purple | Jo-Ann



I don't recommend going into JoAnn's Fabrics without your wife as you will get swamped by all the lady employees who "know" you're in the wrong place and you must leave as soon as possible. I like going in there just to see them get jumpy! Also, just noticed this light was on sale for half off.

Anyway, this solved my problem with my Lee. Now I can see into every case as I charge them.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-01-2015, 12:53 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 4,239
Likes: 825
Liked 1,807 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

A squib is just that, a round that doesn't fire. If you are getting powder ignition, & it is underpowered, not really a squib. If you are using really old brass & they are splitting, then you may not have enough neck tension to hold the bullet & give good ignition, but RD is really fast & that shouldn't be an issue in a 1 1/2" bbl. I would suspect your powder drop & there is not powder in the rounds that don't clear the bbl. The other thought mentioned is a blocked primer flash hole. IF you tumble brass with the primer out, stop doing that or inspect each case after tumbling.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 10-01-2015 at 12:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-01-2015, 06:22 PM
GreyOwl's Avatar
GreyOwl GreyOwl is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 122
Likes: 22
Liked 87 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Almost all the definitions I've found state the following:
TOP DEFINITION
Squib load
A defective round of ammunition that lacks sufficient power to force the projectile out of the barrel of a firearm.

Indicators of a squib load may include: little to no recoil, gasses directed back toward the shooter, or failure to cycle another round.

If you experience a squib load, point your firearm in a safe direction, and ensure that it is unloaded. Use a cleaning rod to push the projectile out of the barrel.

Never attempt to fire another round to force the stuck projectile out. This will create pressures that your firearm is not designed to tolerate, and will damage your firearm, and likely result in injury or death.
__________________
GreyOwl
SD9ve, PT140
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-13-2015, 08:09 PM
subvet69's Avatar
subvet69 subvet69 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Komifornia
Posts: 22
Likes: 2
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default

I too experienced squib loads in .38s. I loaded about 300 and a few hundred 9mm with the same primers. The 9mm all fired, about 8 .38's did not. The 1000 primers were all discolored and I blame them. The 9s pack the powder more than the 38s so I had no problem with them. I sent some reloads off to Remington (their primers) over a month ago and haven't heard back yet, if I will at all. I unloaded the 200+ rounds and all had powder in them. The squib loads had unburned powder on the bullet and case. Powder was Bullseye. I have fired more than 3000 rounds of .38 with their primers and Bullseye powder and never had a squib before. New box of primers and have had no problems.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-13-2015, 09:45 PM
Drm50 Drm50 is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Monroe cnty. Ohio
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 1,593
Liked 3,227 Times in 1,109 Posts
Default

I have ammo cans full of primers and powder. Haven't had to buy
any since the big price jumps. I have powder sealed in unopened
cans that are at least 20 years old. All these are stored in GI ammo cans. I load hundreds of 38 WCs. My load 141gr cast WC
P5066 at 4gr. I drop charges in loading blocks of 50, randomly
check and before seating bullets use flashlight across tops to
look for possible over/under charge. I've had very few squibs
and the ones I did have were from punk primers. The flashlight
will let you spot problems with charge very easy. The storage of
primers and powder can be a major factor in producing squibs.
Best kept airtight at constant temperature. I'm still using powders that have been obsolete for years.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:32 PM
bglz42 bglz42 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 33
Likes: 4
Liked 82 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Sorry for the resurrection of an old thread, but I am experiencing this same issue. I have been reloading since 1980, have loaded tens of thousands of rounds on this press and have just started having squibs. The only thing that changed? I got a deal on 1500 Xtreme plated 125gr Flatpoints. I have always loaded 158 grain LRN or SWCs. I adjusted the load, (have used the same powder and charge since 1986 or so), adjusted the seater and let fly. I visually check EVERY round for powder and weigh a charge every ten. The powder is there. Mixed brass, proven primers. Several squibs, with one lodging in the 6" barrel of my 27-2.

So my theory? These Xtreme bullets are very heavily plated, they look jacketed to me. They are cannelured. I was roll-crimping in the cannelure , but not very heavy. I think I am getting insufficient case tension. It is definitely puzzling! I am going to re-crimp 50 or so from the same batch that gave me fits today and see if I can mitigate the problem.

BTW I had loaded 250 158 LRNs just before loading the 125s and got not a single squib. Same powder, same press... very curious.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-12-2017, 01:18 AM
Clovishound Clovishound is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Summerville SC
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Liked 318 Times in 189 Posts
Default

What powder and load are you using?

Plated bullets probably should not be loaded at low end lead loads. Too much friction compared to naked lead. I prefer to use powders for plated that have overlap between cast and jacketed loads. That way high end lead loads will be within jacketed data. I've had better accuracy with these powders. I am reluctant to use loads for plated that are a good deal above max cast data.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #43  
Old 01-12-2017, 04:09 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Member
Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads Squib Loads  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 731
Liked 1,362 Times in 590 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovishound View Post
Plated bullets probably should not be loaded at low end lead loads.
This.

You don't mention what your load actually was, but for reference, I start by looking at jacketed data for a similar-weight bullet. 158-grain lead data would be next to useless.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-12-2017, 07:46 AM
bglz42 bglz42 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 33
Likes: 4
Liked 82 Times in 15 Posts
Default

125 gr, Clays 3.5
158 gr, Clays 3.1
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My first squib Me239 Reloading 15 05-19-2013 03:38 PM
Had my first squib today .. StlBluesFan72 Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 26 09-13-2012 10:00 AM
Need help with my first squib!!! bmdaniel92 Reloading 7 06-15-2011 08:07 PM
First squib shil Reloading 26 04-16-2011 01:07 AM
Had a squib and didn't know it kreativecid Reloading 10 02-14-2011 08:19 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:06 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)