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Old 09-17-2015, 10:11 PM
aurora40 aurora40 is offline
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Default crimping over soft/swaged lead

Would crimping over something like the Hornady LSWC bullets cause them to be swaged down on firing? I guess it seems like the brass case would be fairly stiff compared to the lead bullet pushing against it when the cartridge is fired, and that rather than opening the crimp up, the bullet might get squished down a bit by it.
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:18 PM
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It is common to overlook the action of pressure on the case.
It's inflated off the bullet and released.
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Old 09-18-2015, 12:08 AM
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What caliber? Bullet weight?Semi auto or revolver?

Neck tension is what holds the bullet, crimp prevents bullet creep or set back depending on the previous.

Regardless, the amount of crimp is adjustable.

Light loads.> light crimp. Heavy loads> heavier crimp, but with swagged bullets you should only be loading light.
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Old 09-18-2015, 12:59 AM
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Default Don't crimp hard enough....

Don't crimp any bullet hard enough to deform or dig into it. Many lead bullets have a crimping groove but even if it doesn't, don't deform the bullet. "Crimp" might be too broad of a term because for a lot of reloading, 'debelling' or just taking the flair off of the mouth of the case is plenty.

A little tighter crimp is needed for heavy loads in revolvers where the bullets could back out of the case after each firing.

If you seat the bullet deeply (usually in a rimmed revolver cartridge) you can roll the mouth slightly over the ogive of the bullet.

Some believe that slow powder burns better with a heavier crimp to contain the bullet to allow for a better burn. I don't know whether this is really true and I have not chronographed anything to be able to say. Maybe somebody with some data on slow powders can chime in here.
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by aurora40 View Post
Would crimping over something like the Hornady LSWC bullets cause them to be swaged down on firing? I guess it seems like the brass case would be fairly stiff compared to the lead bullet pushing against it when the cartridge is fired, and that rather than opening the crimp up, the bullet might get squished down a bit by it.
Good question
as venom points out, the case is expanding before the bullet moves ..so... hot, flowing gases are also getting between the case and the bullet ....reducing friction between the case and the bullet.....so it's doubtful the slight roll of the case has the ability to swage the bullet.

I have roll crimped slightly over the top of Hornady wad cutters and slightly over the top of the shoulder for Hornady semi wad cutters and also taper crimped to a flush bullet....and see no differences in the excellent accuracy of these bullets.
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aurora40 View Post
Would crimping over something like the Hornady LSWC bullets cause them to be swaged down on firing? I guess it seems like the brass case would be fairly stiff compared to the lead bullet pushing against it when the cartridge is fired, and that rather than opening the crimp up, the bullet might get squished down a bit by it.
Not if you're crimping (roll or taper) correctly. To me crimping is one of the most mis-understood aspects of reloading.

Something to think about:
Standard reloading dies are 7/8-14 thread. That means that the die/bolt has to turn 14 times to go 1 inch. When adjusting a roll crimp or a taper crimp die the reloader is supposed to adjust the die until they feel it hit the case then give the crimp die 1/8th turn down more. That 1/8th turn ='s less then 10/1000th's of the case will be crimped. If you look closely you can see the crimp line in these reloads. The reload is the standard h&g #68 with a 1.250" oal and a .469"/.470" crimp.



A picture of crimped revolver bullets, same bullet/same crimp. Just different seating depths. 44spl hbwc's



Some 9mm's, a 125gr lead pc'd bullet with a taper crimp. The taper crimp is the shiny bright ring at the top of the case neck.



A standard roll crimp for 158gr pc'd hp's for a snub nosed 38spl.



More 38spl's, this time I'm seating the bullets long to fit the tapered cylinder throats better. Note the same bullet (158gr hp) pictured above is crimped in the lower crimp groove this time. Same 1/8th turn crimp.



Some people use crimps, others just try to remove the bell and yet others over crimp their reloads so badly that they distort the bullets. Myself, I've been reloading for 30+ years now and I've always used the same setup (1/8th turn) for a roll crimp and a taper crimp. Doesn't matter if it's a light load, heavy load, light bullet, heavy bullet, cannalure or plain. Never worried about over working the brass or digging into a bullet. Just a standard roll crimp with bullets (jacketed or lead) that have a cannalure and a 3/1000th's to 4/1000th's crimp with any taper crimp die I've ever used.
Doing the same thing when reloading ='s consistency.
Consistency in reloading ='s accuracy.

Those same bullets pictured above that were loaded with the bullet long to align better in the cylinders tapered throats. Some 6-shot groups shot @ 50ft.



Those same 45acp/h&g #68 reloads, 10-shot group @ 50ft.



Playing around looking for a plinking load for the 44mag. Wanted a load that could do 1" to 1 1/2" 6-shot groups @ 25yds. It didn't take long to find a couple loads that would work.



More plinking loads, this time it's cast lead bullets that were pc'd and for the 308. 10-shot 50yd groups with a light pistol powder load chronographed @ 1700fps.



What do all of those loads pictured above have in common??? There all lead bullets with either a roll crimp, a taper crimp or a collet crimping die for those slippery pc'd 308 bullets.

When a crimping die is adjusted/set correctly it will only affect 10/1000th's or less of the case mouth and reduce the case diameter 3/1000th's to 4/1000th's with taper crimp die.

I have yet in my 30+ years of reloading found a load that was more accurate when using a lead bullet and no crimp/just removing the bell. But, that's just me and my experiences at the range.
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Old 09-18-2015, 12:47 PM
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I really didn't have a specific scenario in mind. What got me thinking about it was having recently loaded some Hornady LSWC's in .44 Special, and then seeing this picture from an article:



It looks to have a pretty serious crimp over the bullet (2nd from the left), and I wondered if that wouldn't shave or squish it a bit on firing.

I had not thought about the pressure on the case expanding the whole thing, though. That is an interesting point and makes sense.

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Old 09-18-2015, 01:57 PM
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In my experience, a crimped soft bullet can be "swaged" by a roll crimp. I understand the whole cartridge case expands upon firing but a .010" crimp will not be blown completely straight before bullet movement. I often found the mouths of my .357 Mag. and .44 Spec./Mag.brass still had a bit of a "roll" on it after firing. I turned to either no crimp (as the loads for swaged bullets is relatively light) or a taper crimp when using extra soft/swaged bullets, but very soon stopped using swaged lead bullets...

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Old 09-18-2015, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
In my experience, a crimped soft bullet can be "swaged" by a roll crimp. I understand the whole cartridge case expands upon firing but a .010" crimp will not be blown completely straight before bullet movement. I often found the mouths of my .357 Mag. and .44 Spec./Mag.brass still had a bit of a "roll" on it after firing. I turned to either no crimp (as the loads for swaged bullets is relatively light) or a taper crimp when using extra soft/swaged bullets, but very soon stopped using swaged lead bullets...
it doesn't have to be blown straight, just "inflated off"
In this specific case, theres little need to try to torque em down like diesel engine head bolts. You will lead line the bore long before you hit a load that requires that strong of a crimp.
But then, like you, I migrated away from soft swaged long ago.
A good mold can cover a lot more ballistic turf than soft swaged can.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:34 PM
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I couldn't resist these particular soft swaged bullets, because they were about 3.25 cents/round for 240gr .44's. The few I loaded I actually did not crimp at all. They have pretty good neck tension, and are over < 5 grains of 700x, so not exactly a barn burner. I don't think I'd get more when these are gone, though. But good information to have, for any kind of crimping.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:40 AM
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I couldn't resist these particular soft swaged bullets, because they were about 3.25 cents/round for 240gr .44's. The few I loaded I actually did not crimp at all. They have pretty good neck tension, and are over < 5 grains of 700x, so not exactly a barn burner. I don't think I'd get more when these are gone, though. But good information to have, for any kind of crimping.
OH... don't give up on them
they are my most accurate load using top end of charge weights with Unique in my 357 - they are still mouse fart loads but its fun to get them all in the 10 ring at 25 yards
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
In my experience, a crimped soft bullet can be "swaged" by a roll crimp. I understand the whole cartridge case expands upon firing but a .010" crimp will not be blown completely straight before bullet movement. I often found the mouths of my .357 Mag. and .44 Spec./Mag.brass still had a bit of a "roll" on it after firing. I turned to either no crimp (as the loads for swaged bullets is relatively light) or a taper crimp when using extra soft/swaged bullets, but very soon stopped using swaged lead bullets...
mikld
I've seen that remaining "roll" on the end of the case mouth.
I would guess that it might score a swaged lead bullet - but would you think it is stiff enough to swage down the diameter of the bullet at all? and especially with the "inflation" thing going on ? (venom, I like that term)

I've read that "roll" or "curl" acts like a pressure flap valve at the bullet that limits gas bleed out while the bullet gets started with its jump to the throat - so its not a bad thing
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:10 PM
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Well my opinion is from being a life long machinist/mechanic and working with metals for 60 years (give or take a few ), and reloading for mebbe 30 years. My observations were using a very soft material (swaged lead) and forcing it into a harder metal cylinder (brass alloy case), and rolling the mouth of the cylinder around the soft metal (roll crimp). When enough pressure is generated inside the cylinder, the cylinder, being a malleable metal, expands slightly and the soft metal is expelled out of the cylinder. The rolled portion of the cylinder does not completely straighten out and remains smaller in diameter than the OD of the soft metal slug, thus swaging/rolling/forming the soft slug down in diameter. Inspection of the cylinder after slug expulsion shows a portion of the cylinder's mouth to be a few thousandths of an inch smaller in diameter than the body of the cylinder. In my experience, forcing a soft material through a slightly smaller opening in a harder material will form the softer material to conform to the smaller diameter...

Also I have pulled some swaged bullets outta my lightly crimped reloads and measured them with my mics, but seating a soft bullet and pulling before crimping showed no swaging...

But, hey, jes my thoughts...

Last edited by mikld; 09-19-2015 at 02:12 PM.
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