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Old 10-04-2015, 02:39 PM
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Default What is the advantage to the 357 Sig??

Rather than mess up the ongoing thread, I had a question on this.

Yes, I know the claim of 357Mag in a semi auto and I love Sigs

Is the 357 Sig more accurate than a +P 9MM or better for defense than a 40 SW? Less recoil than a 40 SW??

I looked up velocities of shooting a lighter 40 SW at max loads and it seems as good or better than the 357 Sig?

Guess I never saw the reason to buy a conversion barrel for my 40 SW's?

Never shot a 357 Sig so what am I missing?
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:05 PM
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Lighter recoil than the 40 IMO. Better bullet performance vs lighter 135-155gr 40s. The slightly lighter recoil would be the only measurable reason to switch really. With fmj, better barrier penetration.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:23 PM
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I figured if it was that much better, more LEO and Military would use it but they don't. I supose some special units do.
The 40 seems to be the major caliber. Heck some of switching back to the 9mm.

Sure any necked down case will jump up the velocity. Like the old Tokarev round.

I do not worry to much about barrier penetration unless I am shooting at heavier cardboard.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:26 PM
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Never played with it, but I do play with its ugly big brother, 400 corbon.
With the higher velocities offered by these bottlenecks, things start to get a little interesting on target.

If you enjoy visions of water filled plastic jugs and bottles being reduced to clouds of spray, You'll likely enjoy the 357 sig over either 9MM or 40 S&W. If you find such things repulsive ... then ... why are you spending money on this?
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Rather than mess up the ongoing thread, I had a question on this.

Yes, I know the claim of 357Mag in a semi auto and I love Sigs

Is the 357 Sig more accurate than a +P 9MM or better for defense than a 40 SW? Less recoil than a 40 SW??

I looked up velocities of shooting a lighter 40 SW at max loads and it seems as good or better than the 357 Sig?

Guess I never saw the reason to buy a conversion barrel for my 40 SW's?

Never shot a 357 Sig so what am I missing?
Where in Florida are you? South Florida?

I will let you experience the 357SIG in any thing from a pocket pistol, to a duty sidearm, to a target gun, to a SMG that you would like
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:41 PM
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I figured if it was that much better, more LEO and Military would use it but they don't. I supose some special units do.
The 40 seems to be the major caliber. Heck some of switching back to the 9mm.
As I am sure you are aware, there is no single firearm that fills the need of all Law Enforcement.

The needs of the Highway Patrol are different than the needs of a City Police force which are different than the needs of Correctional Officers which are different than the needs of Probation Officers, etc.

Also many Law Enforcement equipment choices have nothing to do with what is best.

Some choices are based on what the Vendor has offered the Agency for FREE. Occasionally choices are based on what the Vendor has offered the particular contract Administrator.

The one example I will point out is FHPs switch from 9MM to 40S&W was made because Beretta offered a 96D and three mags for each 92 traded in. This was at a cost of $0 to the State. Beretta did this to be able to claim a major Agency had adopted the 96D in 40S&W

40S&W is a terrible choice for Highway Patrol work, the 357SIG is far better
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:03 PM
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I bought a Glock 31 to shoot at 2 liter Sprite bottles at 100 yards. The .357 Sig shoots flatter than a 9 mm Parabellum; it has the energy at 100 yards that the 9 mm has at the muzzle.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:20 PM
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40S&W is a terrible choice for Highway Patrol work, the 357SIG is far better

I agree with your post (the parts I deleted in this quote, just to narrow it down to this)

Why is the 357 Sig better for the FHP over the 40 SW?
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
I agree with your post (the parts I deleted in this quote, just to narrow it down to this)

Why is the 357 Sig better for the FHP over the 40 SW?
Perhaps "TERRIBLE" was a poor word choice.

The 357 Sig is not better for the FHP specifically, it is better for the needs of Highway Patrol work anywhere

The Highway Patrolman often sees a car door or window between himself and the other party. Traditionally, defensive 9MM ammunition is terrible against windshields, 40 S&W defensive ammunition is only slightly better.

The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density perform considerably better.

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Old 10-04-2015, 05:53 PM
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Providing I can find them cheap enough, I will get a .357 Sig barrel and magazine for my Sig P239.

Last edited by ColbyBruce; 10-04-2015 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:59 PM
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Providing I can find them cheap enough, I will get a ,357 Sig barrel and magazine for my Sig P239.
Your 40 S&W magazine works just fine with 357SIG.

40 S&W in the 357SIG magazine will not work
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Perhaps "TERRIBLE" was a poor word choice.

The 357 Sig is not better for the FHP specifically, it is better for the needs of Highway Patrol work anywhere

The Highway Patrolman often sees a car door or window between himself and the other party. Traditionally, defensive 9MM ammunition is terrible against windshields, 40 S&W defensive ammunition is only slightly better.

The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density perform considerably better.
That is what I figured. The FHP use to carry SW 357 Mag Revolvers. Now what do they have Glock 37 in 45 GAP??
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
As I am sure you are aware, there is no single firearm that fills the need of all Law Enforcement.

The needs of the Highway Patrol are different than the needs of a City Police force which are different than the needs of Correctional Officers which are different than the needs of Probation Officers, etc.

Also many Law Enforcement equipment choices have nothing to do with what is best.

Some choices are based on what the Vendor has offered the Agency for FREE. Occasionally choices are based on what the Vendor has offered the particular contract Administrator.

The one example I will point out is FHPs switch from 9MM to 40S&W was made because Beretta offered a 96D and three mags for each 92 traded in. This was at a cost of $0 to the State. Beretta did this to be able to claim a major Agency had adopted the 96D in 40S&W

40S&W is a terrible choice for Highway Patrol work, the 357SIG is far better
The 96D might be a terrible choice but plenty of agencies issue 40s. Good barrier penetration, high cap, manageable recoil in full size guns. I do wish I could get a 357sig bbl for my 1st gen 4006 though.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:53 PM
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Providing I can find them cheap enough, I will get a ,357 Sig barrel and magazine for my Sig P239.
I have P239 in 357sig, best shooting small gun I own.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:05 PM
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sectional densities:

.357 @ 125 gr = .140

.40 @ 155 gr = .138

.40 @ 165 gr = .147

etc., etc.

I'm not seeing why the .357 is considerably better from the standpoint of sectional density
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:06 PM
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sectional densities:

.357 @ 125 gr = .140

.40 @ 155 gr = .138

.40 @ 165 gr = .147

etc., etc.

I'm not seeing why the .357 is considerably better from the standpoint of sectional density
the 357 sig 125g is moving on along at about 1400 FPS and some folks pushing this up into the 1500+ range
the 40's 155g makes right around 1150.

Velocity means something when your interested in seeing things pulverized
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:15 PM
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And sectional density means something when you're trying to see things penetrated. I still fail to see an argument for better penetration from a 125 gr .357 versus the 155gr .40 S&W....much less the 165gr or anything heavier.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:27 PM
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I bought a .357 Sig barrel for my Glock 22. It's an impressive and hot little round. However, I don't think it serves a purpose that isn't filled by some other more common caliber. There are anecdotes out there that claim it is the ballistic equivalent of the venerable .357 Magnum 125 Gr. hollow point, but I don't think there are any statistics to confirm that.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:41 PM
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Everybody forgets one of the best features of the 357 Sig. When it is feeding from the magazine into the chamber, you have a 9mm bullet going into a 10mm hole. It is like a funnel. Very reliable function.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:44 PM
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I bought a .357 Sig barrel for my Glock 22. It's an impressive and hot little round. However, I don't think it serves a purpose that isn't filled by some other more common caliber. There are anecdotes out there that claim it is the ballistic equivalent of the venerable .357 Magnum 125 Gr. hollow point, but I don't think there are any statistics to confirm that.
alliant has the Sig pushing a 124g at 1435FPS
Hodgdon has the magnum pushing a 125g at 1966FPS

Nope ... the Sig won't actually duplicate the magnum.
It does, however, start offering some magnum territory to the service auto pistol.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:07 AM
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My 226 sig shoots much tighter groups with the 357 barrel. Usually half the size at 25 yards.
I am able to better times with the reduced recoil but that is me.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
sectional densities:

.357 @ 125 gr = .140

.40 @ 155 gr = .138

.40 @ 165 gr = .147

etc., etc.

I'm not seeing why the .357 is considerably better from the standpoint of sectional density
Part of the flaw when trying to keep answers short is sometimes leaving out words.

The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density for similar weight projectiles, perform considerably better.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
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alliant has the Sig pushing a 124g at 1435FPS
Hodgdon has the magnum pushing a 125g at 1966FPS

Nope ... the Sig won't actually duplicate the magnum.
It does, however, start offering some magnum territory to the service auto pistol.
That is VERY unfair, since Hodgdon uses a 10" test barrel for velocity, not a 4" model 19 like in the real world
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:20 AM
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That is VERY unfair, since Hodgdon uses a 10" test barrel for velocity, not a 4" model 19 like in the real world
Might be skewed, probably is. but it takes more than barrel length differences to make a 500 fps spread.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
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alliant has the Sig pushing a 124g at 1435FPS
Hodgdon has the magnum pushing a 125g at 1966FPS

Nope ... the Sig won't actually duplicate the magnum.
It does, however, start offering some magnum territory to the service auto pistol.

The 327 Fed Mag is suppose to come close to 357 Mag also. I can crank a 115 gr bullet at very high velocities out of 2" sbub but it is not a 357 Mag, I consider it more of a 9 MM +P+.

It's all a small fast, big slow space time continuum thing!

How about a 135 gr JHP in a 40 SW!

Looking at Hodgdon and Speer, Hornady data one can crank a 40 SW at the same velocity as a 357 Sig give or take. I do not see much difference. If indeed the Sig has less recoil that would be a benefit for sure. Guess that is why I never messed with it and have to deal with yet another caliber.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:45 AM
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Sure any necked down case will jump up the velocity. Like the old Tokarev round.

I feel in my bones that a necked down pistol round won't be very popular. It seems "foreign" or something. I may be wrong but I'm just feeling the pulse of society.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:47 AM
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If you enjoy visions of water filled plastic jugs and bottles being reduced to clouds of spray, You'll likely enjoy the 357 sig over either 9MM or 40 S&W. If you find such things repulsive ... then ... why are you spending money on this?
I haven't had so much fun popping water bottles since I was a kid with cherry bombs. That's my idea of a 'reactive target'.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:58 AM
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I feel in my bones that a necked down pistol round won't be very popular. It seems "foreign" or something. I may be wrong but I'm just feeling the pulse of society.
Yeah ... The first argument is loss of round count over a 9mm.
Yet nobody pitches a fit over a 308 rifle saying that it's a loss over 30 carbine
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:42 AM
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I've read that it is a challenge to reload. I think the issue is the neck area is very short, and it is difficult to get enough neck tension to securely hold the bullet.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Part of the flaw when trying to keep answers short is sometimes leaving out words.

The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density for similar weight projectiles, perform considerably better.

Which .357SIG load has a projectile weight similar to a .40SW projectile?
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:30 AM
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Which .357SIG load has a projectile weight similar to a .40SW projectile?
Almost all of them
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:32 AM
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A few years ago, when it was hard to find pistol ammo, you could get all of the 357SIG you wanted. Thats the way it was around hear anyway. I love my GLOCK 33. That is a hot little gun!
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:55 AM
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A 40 S&W vs 357 Sig. debate? Hmmmm
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:04 AM
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What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig??  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
I've read that it is a challenge to reload. I think the issue is the neck area is very short, and it is difficult to get enough neck tension to securely hold the bullet.
Per Speer they have specific bullets with longer driving band for the Sig rather than just regular 9mm bullets, Using a 147 gr bullet also helps. (so I have read)

Speer Gold Dot Bullets 357 Sig 38 Super (355 Diameter) 125 Grain

Loading the .357 Sig - MassReloading

Real Guns - .357 SIG handloads...controlling headspace
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Almost all of them
"Almost all" 357SIG ammo has a 124-125gr bullet.

"Almost all" .40 cal ammo has a 155-180 grain bullet.

Again, which .357SIG load has bullet weight with a "greater sectional density" that makes it "considerably better"
than a 40?
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:19 AM
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What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig?? What is the advantage to the 357 Sig??  
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Originally Posted by novalty View Post
A 40 S&W vs 357 Sig. debate? Hmmmm
Nice colors

But how is the 357 Sig for Bears???
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:48 AM
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Nice colors

But how is the 357 Sig for Bears???
Sorry there was not a green color choice



If you can't tell, I don't like either the 40S&W or 357 Sig. So from my stand point having to choose between the two, I would say the 40S&W would be the least disliked.

1. Not necked down
2. Less costly if you are buying factory
3. Brass is more widely available for the 40 (aka free range pickings)
4. I expect the .357 Sig to disappear from mass production in chamberings like the .327 Federal Magnum and 40 Action Express.

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Old 10-05-2015, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
"Almost all" 357SIG ammo has a 124-125gr bullet.
Exactly

And they have a higher sectional density than all similar weight 40 caliber projectiles

The proof of that is in post #15
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Old 10-05-2015, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
"Again, which .357SIG load has bullet weight with a "greater sectional density" that makes it "considerably better"
than a 40?
We know you LOVE your 40 S&W

You need to re-read my posts.

I NEVER made the blanket statement that the 357SIG is considerably better than the 40 S&W

You sound like you missed the phrase "for Highway Patrol work, the 357SIG is far better" in my earlier post

No single cartridge is KING. Each cartridge has different characteristics that make it better suited for different specific roles

For Example:
Is 44 Magnum a better cartridge than 22 LR?

Yes if you are hunting wild Boar.
No if you are getting rid of the Possum tearing apart your garbage
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post


Is 44 Magnum a better cartridge than 22 LR?

Yes if you are hunting wild Boar.
No if you are getting rid of the Possum tearing apart your garbage
I don't know about dat..Ol Pogo..he can take a lotta lead. LOL.

I had a 40..gone now thankfully. Also had a 357 Sig. Reminded me of a 30 Mauser or 30 Luger. In other words...almost useless in MY opinion. The 357 Sig is not even close to what the 357 Mag has always been. For Po-Leece work it just gives more round count for the officer. As does the 9mm and the 40. Better cartridges?? Again in MY opinion. nuh uh! Not even close! But I guess they are adequate with the newer bullets available...but they have newer better bullets for the 357 and 45 auto too. I am also of the old school on the 30-06/308/45 auto class of cartridges for military use over the 223/9mm. Bigger is definitely better for the intended use.
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
I don't know about dat..Ol Pogo..he can take a lotta lead. LOL.

I had a 40..gone now thankfully. Also had a 357 Sig. Reminded me of a 30 Mauser or 30 Luger. In other words...almost useless in MY opinion. The 357 Sig is not even close to what the 357 Mag has always been. For Po-Leece work it just gives more round count for the officer. As does the 9mm and the 40. Better cartridges?? Again in MY opinion. nuh uh! Not even close! But I guess they are adequate with the newer bullets available...but they have newer better bullets for the 357 and 45 auto too. I am also of the old school on the 30-06/308/45 auto class of cartridges for military use over the 223/9mm. Bigger is definitely better for the intended use.

POgo?? Does someone besides me remember Pogo??



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Old 10-05-2015, 02:51 PM
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Of course I does dis-remember Pogo. But I doubt too many do. I was just talking to a friend from Md last night who asked me about some odd droppings he had found on his place. He described 'em and I asked if he still had some persimmon trees on his place. When he told me yep and they were full of persimmons I reminded him of dem pogo's that just love persimmons. I like 'em too..after a frost of two hits 'em. I even used to trap 'em when I was a kid. Usually got better prices than mus -rats. Them and coons really liked sardines...hold the mustard
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:35 PM
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Beyond what has already been mentioned here, I see two positive aspects to the 357 sig.
First, It has (so far) kept me from spending a butt-ton of money experimenting with the 38 super. The sig only required a barrel change in my .40S&W guns where the 38 super would have required a couple of new guns to properly experiment :-)

Second, (and I know this is going in the opposite direction of the design goal)
the 357 sig handloads down nicely to 9mm performance levels. This (again) allows for getting more out of one gun with just a simple barrel change.

That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it!
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:31 PM
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And it makes one helluva fireball when loaded with Blue Dot!
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:13 PM
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I agree with Wee Hooker. We get to shoot 2 different calibers out of the same gun with a simple barrel change. And our reloading skills have improved. I have an M&P357 and a SigP226 and love all 4.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venomballistics View Post
but it takes more than barrel length differences to make a 500 fps spread.
No it doesn't. Factory American Eagle .357 Mag from a 4" GP100 vs 16" Rossi. 1318 fps vs 1799 fps. ~480 fps change just due to barrel length. Also that's a heavier 158gr bullet (and a practice/plinking commercial load). A 125gr would do even better with longer barrels due to the extra powder.

That said, in a longer barrel, no doubt the .357 Mag will outperform the SIG in terms of energy. It has more case capacity. And it can push heavier bullets. But if you are using a 125gr bullet, and a pistol as short as most SIG's, you'd be hard pressed to push the bullet much faster.

Keep in mind a 4" SIG has 4" of chamber and barrel. A 4" .357 revolver has 4" of barrel, and about 1.75-2" of cylinder. It is a substantially longer gun than a semi-auto 4" chambered in the SIG round. You'd need something more like a sunb-nose to get similar size (in length, obviously the semi will be thinner no matter what). And you become less likely to match the 1400-1500 fps the .357 SIG was designed around.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
We know you LOVE your 40 S&W

You need to re-read my posts.

I NEVER made the blanket statement that the 357SIG is considerably better than the 40 S&W

You sound like you missed the phrase "for Highway Patrol work, the 357SIG is far better" in my earlier post

No single cartridge is KING. Each cartridge has different characteristics that make it better suited for different specific roles

For Example:
Is 44 Magnum a better cartridge than 22 LR?

Yes if you are hunting wild Boar.
No if you are getting rid of the Possum tearing apart your garbage
Nope. I don't own a 40SW. In fact, I've never shot a .40 at all.

And I've read your posts.

In post #9 you answered this question...

"Why is the 357 Sig better for the FHP over the 40 SW?"

with these words...

"The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density perform considerably better."

In post #15, I politely suggested that's incorrect....the popular 125 grain .357 bullet DOES NOT have a higher sectional density than the popular 165 grain .40 bullet.

You responded in post #22 by adding words to your original statement...

"The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density for similar weight projectiles, perform considerably better."

...suggesting there are 357SIG and 40SW loads with similar weight projectiles.

You quoted my question....

"Again, which .357SIG load has bullet weight with a "greater sectional density" that makes it "considerably better"
than a 40?"

but still haven't answered it.

Don't you hate it when then ugly facts ruin a beautiful theory?
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:07 PM
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Guys, I did not start this thread to create a what is better or a war or debate on what is better.

Just curious as to the advantages or disadvantages of the Sig load.(velocity, recoil, energy, etc)

Everyone has a favorite for whatever reason so lets not get hung up on sectional densities and other minutia.

Less recoil was kinda what I was looking for as I do not care for the "snap" of the 40 SW. I rather shoot a 45 ACP in that respect.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalty View Post
Sorry there was not a green color choice



If you can't tell, I don't like either the 40S&W or 357 Sig. So from my stand point having to choose between the two, I would say the 40S&W would be the least disliked.

1. Not necked down
2. Less costly if you are buying factory
3. Brass is more widely available for the 40 (aka free range pickings)
4. I expect the .357 Sig to disappear from mass production in chamberings like the .327 Federal Magnum and 40 Action Express.
The 40 SW is not my favorite either although I have several and I will carry it when ever I can wear a jacket.

I do like my 327 Fed Mag. 6 shots in a snub that outperform any 38 special and not the blast and flash of a 357 Mag. No IL either
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
"The 125 grain 357 Magnum and 357SIG with their higher velocity and greater sectional density for similar weight projectiles, perform considerably better."

...suggesting there are 357SIG and 40SW loads with similar weight projectiles.
You are once again correct

There are 357SIG and 40S&W loads with similar weight projectiles
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