Very useful info . . . thanks much!

Did the LR Tech give you (or did you find) any tips on how to avoid something like that steel target? Like a specific way to line it up or not line it up? I've used the LR at a 25yd 5-bay indoor range with no issues noticed, but there was little possibility of a reflection off the walls or backstop.

I keep wanting to bring my MS to the range to crosscheck the LR. But I so much enjoy shooting for precision and gathering MV data at the same time that I just don't want to deal with the POI issues. Maybe I can convince myself I have good SD data now

It might be useful to report the "single file" concept/comparison back to LabRadar. LR data is cumbersome, but maybe made hardware requirements lighter, programming easier, whatever. Or maybe they just didn't think of it.

And finally . . . my CED M2 and MS are probably doomed to the same fate as your Pact

I actually did mount the magnetospeed on the double.
I used a piece of power cord to fill the space between the barrels.
When the tech saw my pix he laughed and told me no way it would work.
It wasn't very stable anyway.

Attached Images

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	BayoOnDouble-3.jpg (249.1 KB, 45 views)

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

When I went to mount the LabRadar on it's base, the threads did not match exactly
and I ended up rethreading the aluminum screw of the base mount a little.
The hole in the LabRadar was too small.
I then found out the tripod shoe for my Manfrotto tripod would not even start to thread into the LabRadar.
The "benches" at my indoor range are plastic and bounce a little especially when I weigh them down with some sandbags.
This last time I used a bag of shot to hold the LabRadar base steady.
But it all still bounces up and down if I am resting a gun on the bags.
So I want a steadier mount on a tripod removed from the bench tables.

Well I communicated all this to Mr. Mouser @ LabRadar and he sent me a 1/4-20 tap and a new base mount center assembly.
Free. Within a couple of days.
The tap did the job and I am now happy once again.
Can't wait to get to the range and have to haul even more stuff down those stairs.
Well done LabRadar!

I am still having trouble getting reliable triggering and not blasting the unit.
The 17" 445 Encore can produce quite some muzzle blast especially with the A1680 powder I was testing.
I-4227 burns up quicker. Also it's single based and 1680 is double based.

I think I need to move the muzzle a little further away from the radar next and play with the trigger levels more.
I did fool around with them some but ended up on 1 as I found that even with some shooters a couple lanes down from me,
those 9's didn't trigger the radar at all at that sensitive setting.
There are some pretty wide barrier walls between the lanes there.
Hopefully I haven't blown out one of the microphones already.

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	FixedTripodMount800.jpg (275.9 KB, 32 views)

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

I am very happy with mine and have chrono'ed 22LR up to 45 ACP with the only problem being my AR15 in 223 with a muzzle brake. Due to the rest I was using I was having a hard time getting the unit lined up right to get it to trigger. I changed to a front bag rest to lower the rifle and get it closer to the side of the Labradar and started getting readings.

I contacted Mr. Mouser about the muzzle blast from a brake or comp as the manual mentions putting something between the the muzzle and the Labradar to protect it. He said that unless I was shooting a 308 or larger there was no worry. I was a little worried about my 357 mag revolver as I am using the less then 6 inch setting but had no problems.

I was impressed with the stored file that shows the FPS every .002 of a second down range. Not very useful info but impressive.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Yeah the data that shows up for the 5 preselected distances is quite informative too.
Some of the big WFNGC's I shoot that are almost wadcutters lose 100fps in 60 FEET (not yards)!
Talk about a rainbow.
Haven't calculated the BC's yet but they are going to low low low.
Appropriate for the "express" rifles I love.

Attached Images

LBT_WFNGCs800.jpg (174.9 KB, 16 views)

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Any tips for aiming the unit? I ordered one last night from Midway, and they still had ~160 LabRadar in stock! Front page at Midway offers a $30 coupon too.

Yes their site in the FAQ says to lay a straight piece of tubing in the V and sight through it. I found a small laser that would lay in the V also. I found that putting some Velcro on top of the unit then a strip over the tubing or laser better held it in position while adjusting the unit.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Hadn't thought of the "tube sight" . . . thanks! Small tube section . . . some Duck tape . . . maybe even install paperclip crosshairs

More seriously, I haven't had much trouble but I do take time to line it up. And the worse my eyes get, the longer it takes. This will help.

Thank you.
I'll start 'shopping' the local fast food places for different straw and stirrers. A dab of silicone will hold it...

I stopped in Best Buy yesterday and bought 2 of their house-brand Insignia usb battery packs. Clearance priced at~ 7.00 w/ cable. And the smallest SanDisk SDHC in stock was 16GB.

16GB will store my shot strings, children's, grand children's and their kids. Generations of data. Possibly centuries.
I just hope the LabRadar will recognize a card that size.

Yup, it will

Thanks.
I charged the usb batteries and will open the sd card when I have the labradar. Midway said I should have it Tuesday by 7pm. Too late to take to the range. Probably Wednesday. I'm really curious to see if it can read 148gr hbwc from my .38...

I have done a lot of testing with handgun loads in a lot of calibers and had no problem reading any of them.
BTW a longer tube for sighting helps the alignment mine is a 6" carbon fiber tube that I had left over from a tent frame. I use the bag they sell so can't leave it on the unit that is why I use the Velcro. You don't need to mount it but keeping it in the slot is hard when adjusting.

I also tried clear Silicone to mount the laser in the V but it didn't stivk to the plastic very well. The red laser saw only about 2 inches long and I wired it to a USB cable and used the second port on my battery. Worked good indoors.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

I have found out a couple of things that may help.

The LabRadar works best when it is absolutely motionless.
I was having trouble getting any readings at all when it was mounted on their stand and the stand was on the firing ledge next to my sandbags at the range.
These "desks" bounce up and down as they are made of plastic.
Last time out I mounted the LabRadar on a tripod and moved it up as close as I could to the firing position.
WAY better. Got a reading every time (unless I forgot to arm it).
Their stand is kind of a PITA to mount the unit on anyway.
The new mount they will be offering is way better but for now a tripod is the way to go unless you have a rock solid bench.

The LabRadar never turns completely off.
I had a set of the regular batteries installed and then I used the rechargeable pack while firing.
The batteries I had put in and then shut the unit off a couple of weeks ago.
I was thinking maybe this would keep the clock going.
It did until the batteries died. While the unit was turned "off".
It ate the whole set. While the unit was turned off.
So now I have one of the big packs plugged in and it is eating that too.
You can watch the little status lights on the pack.
Started with all 4 lit. Now down to 2 after 4 days.
That's a lot of juice to just run the clock.
They should have put in a clock chip and a lithium chip battery that lasts 10 years like every computer motherboard ever made.
Like every digital watch ever made.
This means you cannot just leave a set of the alkaline AA batteries installed.
They will be dead in a few days.
It also may mean you will have to reset the clock every time you use the unit if you want the clock to be correct.
I hope a future firmware upgrade can address this issue.

This last time out I simultaneously used the Magnetospeed and the LabRadar to test the similarities and possible differences.
I will post the results when I have transcribed them.
The LabRadar readings were consistently (slightly) slower than the Magnetospeed.

The sighting ideas are great. I have a laser boresighter for 44's and will try using that.
Since my indoor range is only 20 yards long max, I have had no real trouble just eyeballing the aiming.

For carrying the LabRadar and all the accessories, I broke out an old laptop attache case.
The unit, the base, all the batteries, and any other stuff you may have fit in there great.
LabRadar's case is overpriced for what it is. I would not buy it if I was doing this all over.
Ditto the energy pack. I got a second identical one for $10 online.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Easily. Just make sure you set the speed range to "Pistol".

Did not ship yet.
Sad panda
But there is always tomorrow!

Just noticed on the Labradar web site . . . there's a new (to me) firmware version available.

You might want to check and see if it's an update for you.

Installing now (v. 1.4).

The fixes are pretty minor:
" Added trigger source information on screen:
- Right arrow for right internal trigger
- Left arrow for left internal trigger
- Ext. for External trigger
- air waves for Doppler trigger

- Adjustment of external trigger levels for improved performances

- Minor bug fix"

Too bad they don't tell us what the bug was.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Mine arrived this afternoon. Firmware A 114, B 100.
Off to source a laptop bag/backpack/messenger case for the unit.
Will shoot tomorrow. Storms predicted in the afternoon, so bright and early at the range.

Installed the update but misinterpreted what the right and left arrows did. I was thinking I was going to get to select what side the sensor I used was on. Emailed them and got the answer right back it just shows what one was used on the screen after the shot. I already suspected it was the side closes to the muzzle.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Fairly worthless bells and whistles unless maybe one of mics burns out.
Then you might be able to tell when you only get one sensor used no matter what.
I'd like to be able to vary slightly the way it calculates the MV so as to calibrate it to other machines.
Or at least have it explained better how this happens.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Gives me a thought . . . wonder if you muffle (eg) the right-side mic while shooting near the left mic.

Might help minimize picking up others' shots in some situations.

Beat the rain. PA Game Commission range in Tobyhanna. Tables at 50 and 100 yards. Standing tables on the 10 and 25 around a berm. I camped out at a 50 yard berth.

The LabRadar ran perfectly. I shot 200 of my 148gr hollow base wad cutters, 30 148gr button nose and 50 lswc-hp. Every shot was picked up except the first. I forgot to arm the unit. Brought the manual just in case, but didn't use it. And have it on my phone. I did 2 series, the 148s and the 158s. I should have broke it down into 148s and 158s for each gun.

Battery life was not a concern during my 2 1/2 hour visit. Battery display showed 3/4 battery and the pack agreed. Display was easy to read in the super bright morning sun. I wrote down my data too, just like I used to.

I used the 1 setting for sensitivity, and distance as 12". I brought a selection of stirrers and straws (and gum!), but the LR just worked w/o any fine aiming necessary.

I like it.
+++
2 other picture I took w/ the cell phone->

Nice picture glad it worked out. I mounted a extra mount toward the front edge of the plate which I got on Amazon. some times I couldn't get the Labradar far enough forward depending on the gun and bench I was using. I set a heavy lead ingot and my battery pack on the aft edge to balance it.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

ROK: That looks like the new base mount with a tripod shoe.
Way nicer than the original mount!
I am going to see if they will sell me just the mount as I already have the base.

Looking at your picture reminds me that all radiation tends to spread out as it goes along.
The radar beam is going to get bigger at longer ranges.
This may explain some of your ease at "aiming" at 50 yds. and some of our problems at closer range.
Proper aim IS going to help maximize the return signal however.
I'd be interested to know what kind of power it is radiating.

I used to aim, at long distance, microwave paths that were roughly 1KW/cm^2 in power.
Then they were fed to dishes that were 4 to 10 feet in diameter.
You did NOT want to get in front of those beams.
I have a scar on my hand from working on the bench with one of the transmitters.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

This is what I mounted on the front edge of my plate. My plate is the same one that is shown in Nemo228's photo.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Guess I'd be wanting something more like this which has a quick disconnect tripod shoe and looks a lot like ROK's mount.
Note the LabRadar uses the small standard 1/4x20 screw.
Most "professional" mounts use the larger 3/8x16 screw.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

I can not comment on any other mount-I've only seen the one in my pictures and have. The mount snugs down well and held on target. Monday I'll try to get to another range w/ tables set for 25 yards and see how my 'aiming' goes. Gum is in the car and straws/stirrers are packed w/ the LabRadar.

I did pack 2 c-clamps to fasten the base plate down, but the concrete table was too thick. Most PA Game Commission range table tops are 3/4" plywood, not concrete. I was surprised.

Usually I push the LR forward with the base half off the bench to get it closer to the muzzle of longer rifles and use a c-clamp to hold it.

Today I got lazy and decided to try putting the LR in the middle of the bench, just about at the chamber of a 26" rifle. The LR worked fine.

Only thought nagging at me is whether that affects velocity readings. Distance shouldn't affect doppler radar readings . . . but I think I may ask the makers anyhow.

That will be interesting.
Goes back to the algorithm used to determine the "muzzle" velocity.
If the initial reflection varies all over the place in distance, how do they figure out where the muzzle is?
Triangulate the 2 mics and the first radar pulse?
Next time out I will vary the "trigger distance" while leaving the muzzle in the same place and see what, if any, changes occur in the numbers rendered.
I have been shooting the 445 Encore with the muzzle about a foot in front of the radar to keep some of the blast off it.
Moving the barrel closer and closer to the radar has helped reliably trigger it.
I have no idea how loud you have to be to use some of the less sensitive trigger levels.
I can't even get to 2 without losing some shots.
Then again I am only burning 30-35 grains of powder and the big boys go well over 100 and some use a brake.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Range day with the Lab Radar and a 16" CZ 455 and a 16" AR using my 55gr Hornady FMJBT load. The AR upper I just put together and mounted the scope at the range. In the time it took me to line up my plumb-bob and level everything, the tables on both side became occupied. The Lab Radar picked up all the shots around me and displayed velocities for some. Delete-Delete-Delete-Delete.

Turned it off and just sighted in at 50 yards.

Moved to a remote area on 100 yard side and the LR worked as expected. I have the mic for .22 rimfire and clipped it to the front bag rest. It picked up every shot. And only my shots, but I had to give it space.

Still figuring out it's ins and outs, but a terrific piece of equipment!

Why do you need a remote mic for 22LR I have never had one that did not read on the LR? The biggest bunch of my testing has been with 22LR in rifle and pistol I place the side of the LR about 4 inches from m the LR and set on 1 the highest sensitivity.

Have not had anyone shooting beside me trigger my LR and the shooting positions are only about 4 foot apart. If you are running the new Rev. did you get a arrow showing on what side of you the triggering shot came from? If it was from the side opposite your gun you can add a thick piece of foam or something to deflect the sound wave. If it is both side maybe lowering the sensitivity so it just picks up your shots.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Suppressor.
Or should I say suppressor(s). I've shot two different 'cans' (Sparrow and a Ryder) on this rifle and both cans cause problems w/ shots not recognized. I ordered the mic to help the unit out. Are you shooting suppressed?

I don't remember an arrow to select the triggering side. I look for it when I have it out again.

Glad you have had success w/ .22 rimfire. I enjoy the caliber too and look forward to usable results with the new mic.

No I can see that a suppressed gun would be a problem. I keep wanting to get a can but it is low on the list of stuff I think I need to have.

The new Rev lvl shows on the top of the screen the mic that recorded the shot.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

The latest (1.1.4) firmware is available at:
http://www.mylabradar.com/admin/inco...114b100_en.zip
I have not had an opportunity to use the LR with the newest firmware yet. :|

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

I did do some shooting using my 17" .445 Encore with the MS mounted on the barrel AND the LR beside it.
I had some initial trouble triggering the LR which, this time, was mounted on a tripod but got that sorted out quickly.
I needed to get as close as I could to it without knocking over the tripod
Here are the results:
LabRadar...MagnetoSpeed
Horn .430" 300gr. XTP, 30 grains I-4227, *-*, WLP, 2.08"
....................1801
....................1825
1809.............1818
1819.............1826
1818.............1830...predicted MS X= using the data fit formula below:
X=1815.....X=1820..........1825
SD=5.5.....SD=11

COP .429" 200gr. SCHP, 33.5 W296, *-*, WLP, 2.1"
....................2210
2213.............2232
2269.............2285
2224.............2239
2248.............2265
X=2239.....X=2246..........2255
SD=25.......SD=29

Same as above except 34 grains W296
....................2253
2253.............2268
2249.............2266
2224.............2246
2253.............2267
X=2245.....X=2260.........2261
SD=14.......SD=9

Same as above except 34.5 grains W296
2253.............2266
....................2297
2311.............2328
2295.............2305
2239.............2257
X=2274.....X=2290..........2290
SD=33.5....SD=29

Same as above except 35 grains W296
2326.............2341
2297.............2319
2291.............2309
2322.............2334
2332.............2349
X=2313.....X=2330..........2330
SD=18.3....SD=16

Air Temp was 78 F and by this time Barrel Temp was 98 F.

Back to
300gr. Horn 44 XTP, 30 I-4227, WLP, *-*
1817.............1812 (this was the ONLY shot where LR was faster)
1800.............1808
1805.............1816
1813.............1824
X=1809.....X=1815..........1819
SD=7.6......SD=6

Right as I was going to compare this load but with the Rifle primer WLR, the Magnetospeed battery died.
Stupid me, no spare in the bag.
I did run a series by the LR and got:
X=1822..........................1832
SD=11.6
So the rifle primer is measurably hotter.
This latter round is one of my standard .445 loads.
The big Hornady .44 300 XTP is crimped in the rear cannelure for this load and gun.

Entering all the shots where both chronos produced data into my HP50g, I got a best data fit formula of:
Y=.9513*X^1.0074 which is a power curve.
This is an attempt to convert or justify the LR data to the MS data which I have a large database of.
As I get more data I expect that formula to change.
I was surprised it is not a linear equation.
As you can see it does a pretty good job at the higher velocities.

My first reaction is that the SD's track pretty well.
This is something Brian Litz's article TwoBoxer posted in another LabRadar thread points out and gives confidence in the LR.
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Arti...aphChapter.pdf
Obviously the MS figures are always higher than the LR.
The MS measures velocity between 3 and 8 INCHES from the muzzle.
I am not sure how the LR figures out where the muzzle is.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Couple of things in your fine report interested me lol, starting with where you ended: I'm not sure how the LR figures out where the muzzle is either. Or whether it matters.

First are those old questions I've asked myself before but have been too lazy to ask the LR folks: At what distance (from the muzzle) does the LR capture velocity? Would the calculation for a given shot vary if the LR were in line with the muzzle vs (eg) 12" further back?

Seems that as long as the muzzle is in front of the LR, radar should be able to pick up the moving bullet very quickly. But with some consistent, measurable, presumably quite small delay.

Second is that the MVs from my MS always were higher than my CED optical chrono showed. IIRC the difference was about the same as you experienced in your test. So your results would make (more) sense to me if the LR was measuring or calculating MV at some distance from the muzzle. Which then brings me back to those pesky questions above lol.

Third is my Math degree must be so old now that it never occurred to me to even try to fit the new data against the old. I just erased the old data from the chalkboard of my mind. Probably a good thing though, as I can't figure out why you assumed the relationship would be linear lol. So much for education

I have no idea why I thought the relationship would be linear.
Maybe just a certain percentage off?
Mostly a WAG
I know I am not going to be able to use that particular formula for handgun velocities as it seems to diverge the slower things get.
The recent data I have for the 44 special is from a ProChrono, but it is such a PITA to set up and use at the indoor range
I can't see making another comparison like this.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Guy this math is way over my head. I would need a plug the numbers in calculator to make it work. I didn't have that many numbers from my Prochrono or the strap on chrono. Have you looked at the data that shows the vel and distance in feet every .002 of a second? It shows the velocity at zero time and on this 38SPL load 0.029021 seconds later the bullet is 19.32 feet down range. I am not sure what the SNR is being a electronics tech to me it would mean Signal to Noise Ratio but that doesn't seam to mean much here.

I do not see with how the LR is aimed and the position it sits how it could read MV. The radar cone would have to be 180 degrees. I don't worry myself as all data you see in books and magazines is ussually taken at 10 feet anyway. HV, LV, and AV is good enough for me.

I retested some ammo today that I tested a couple weeks ago and the readings were with in a few numbers in all categories.

I will call them today as soon as they wake up and get to work out West.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Here is our answer I just got of the phone. The muzzle velocity is a very accurate number calculated from all the readings taken down range.

have you ever talked with this guy he is very nice and willing to answer all questions.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Magload, my guess is that SNR means "signal to noise ratio", ie, how much stronger is the data signal than the interfering noise signals.

Thanks for making that call Gotta eat, go shoot some, and think about it a bit.

That is what SNR has always meant to me. This is Doppler radar and what it is seeing is the frequency shift of the return signal. That is why it is so accurate as the known signal that is transmitted is very accurate and the frequency of the return then is used to figure the shift. As the bullet is going away it is a lower frequency. I am not going into doppler theory as you guys probably know that. What ever it works great.

Have you seen the picture of the roll around platform with the built on tripod for Prochrono? I push it out in front of the indoor shooting line with a 10 foot 3 piece PVC pole. I have been attempted to shoot beside the LR, we can't say "over" anymore then over the Pro and see what the difference is. What keeps me from doing it is if there is a difference that will bother me. Working in a Navy calibration lab for 12 years I always have a doth when I look at a readout. I know that very high priced digital instruments have a calibration cycle and need adjustment.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

ROTFLMAO
You don't want to know what went thru my head when I read that!

I was a bench and control room tech-engineer for years and had to haul gear down to Chicago once a year to be calibrated.

I guess even though the trigger times can vary all over the place due to the actual placement of the muzzle,
the timing of the first radar return tells the box exactly how far away the bullet is at that time and then they extrapolate the "muzzle" velocity.
I would guess they set it to 10 feet as that is what most optical chronos say to use.
I sometimes have to go to 15 feet if there is great muzzle blast.
It sure is not giving the numbers close to the muzzle the way the MS does.

__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

He said that due to all the readings it takes every yard that the MV calculation is right on.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

OK, did some shooting and some thinking. Always dangerous

On the one hand, I don't see how any back-calculation can be (perfectly) accurate because LR has no idea where the muzzle is. All it knows is where the LR is . . . relative to the bullet of course.

But let's say the LR is (eg) 6" back from a rifle's muzzle. And let's say the LR uses the stream of downrange data to calculate what the velocity had to be at the point of origin (actually the LR) to produce that data. (AFAIK all done without atmospheric data.)

The LR would assume the bullet had traveled 6" further to reach the point(s) of measurement than it actually did. That would be a small error, maybe around 0.7% if the average distance of the measurement stream were say 30 yds.

If I got this right, wouldn't that lead the LR to over-estimate what the muzzle velocity had to be to produce the down range measurements?

But, using Nemo's MS data as the standard, he's seeing exactly the opposite.

But the MS has some potential issues too. The distance between the sensors (or the sensors' measurements) only has to be off spec by 1mm to produce the same kind of error.

I think I give up lol. This ex-computer geek turned desk jockey will leave it to the equipment techs lol. And I'm glad I never tried to reconcile the chrono data to either my MS or my CED.

I agree but look at these numbers for my 38SLP.
At 19.32 feet the vel is 664.42
At 20.65 feet the Vel is 663.61
---------
0.81
20.65 feet
19.32 feet
-----
1.33 feet
The data does show 671.18 at 0.0 feet so that is a loss of 6.76 in the first 19.32 feet or a loss of 2.85 fps in the first 19 feet. Like I said at the muzzle to 6" it is probably less so I ma not going to worry about it.

So in 1.33 feet the bullet looses 0.81 FPS it probables looses less then that the first 19 feet so we are talking less then a fps 6" from the muzzle. Not something I am going to worry about.

I am not a math wizz by far but I still think this LR rocks.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

I'm good with that