Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-14-2015, 05:59 PM
Talking Monkey's Avatar
Talking Monkey Talking Monkey is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 15
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm

Hello. I am new to reloading and plan on using Xtreme Copper Plated 124gr Round Nose bullets, Titegroup powder, CCI 500 primers, and mostly Blazer Brass for 9mm Luger. I'm hoping for some advice on how to load this?

I see that in the Hodgdon data center, starting loads for Berry's 124 HBRN TP are 3.6gr and 1.15" COAL while Speer Reloading Manual #14 lists starting loads for 124gr TMJ RN at 4.0gr and 1.135" COAL. Max loads are 4.1gr and 4.4gr respectively. Neither of these match my components exactly, but I would think the TMJ is pretty close to the Xtreme bullet. That being said, I'm concerned that the start load in Speer #14 is good bit more than what Hodgdon recommends for the Berry's bullet and is pretty close to their max. Also wondering why there is a discrepancy in OAL. I'm hoping for some advice on how to proceed - any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2015, 06:13 PM
LoboGunLeather's Avatar
LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
US Veteran
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,171
Likes: 17,369
Liked 30,306 Times in 5,158 Posts
Default

Berrys Plated Bullets are best treated as cast bullets, not compared to full metal jacket , TMJ, or other jacketed bullets. Basically the Berrys products are soft lead swaged to shape and copper plated, so considerably softer than any jacketed bullet.

Differences in cartridge OAL will exist anytime one bullet is substituted for another bullet. Different nose shapes, ogives, etc, account for these variations. Your cartridge OAL will be what fits and feeds reliably from your magazines in your pistol.

Published reloading data is nothing more than guidance which, when used properly, will help you combine your desired components into ammunition that provides your desired results in your pistol.

Suggest that you start with the data you have quoted for Berrys plated bullets and work up slowly to a point that your pistol cycles reliably (feeding, ejecting, etc), and not be concerned about hot rod performance for practice ammo.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 12-14-2015, 06:27 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,467
Likes: 10,045
Liked 14,530 Times in 6,423 Posts
Default

Xtreme bullets are plated bullets so they are closer to Berrys plated not a TMJ

The general rule is either use lead data (as mentioned) or usually easier is to use the start to half way load of FMJ data,

I not sure about Extreme but Berrys and others do not want you to exceed around 1200 FPS.

Your COL will vary depending on YOUR gun and barrel, you need to plunk test them for fit in your barrel.

From Berrys site.

FAQ: How do I load Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets? We do not research or publish the load data, but you can use any published load data for a jacketed or lead bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet. Any of the load data books or the powder manufacturers’ website should have that information for you, as long as you keep them under 1250 fps for our standard bullet or 1500fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).
If a COL or OAL is needed please email service@berrysmfg.com for further information.
We recommend very little crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Here are websites with load data information,
https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html
Page not found Accurate Powders
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
__________________
running against the wind

Last edited by Rule3; 12-14-2015 at 06:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 12-14-2015, 07:21 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 29,902
Likes: 39,287
Liked 27,760 Times in 13,207 Posts
Default Listen to the manufacturer......

If a company puts on a plated coating thick enough to act as a jacketed round and be shot hot, they will say so. Otherwise, consider plated as to be not used for heavy loads.

I'd take coated any day over plated. The stuff is GREAT!
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-14-2015, 07:59 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 8,117
Likes: 3,439
Liked 5,072 Times in 2,140 Posts
Default

I can save you some time and trouble, since there are hundreds of people who shoot this exact load in competition, including me.
My Dillon throws 4.0 gr of Titegroup and the OAL is 1.155" with the 124gr plated bullet.
It makes minor power out of a 4.25" bbl M&P9 Pro.
__________________
Science plus Art
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 12-14-2015, 08:54 PM
ontargetagain ontargetagain is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: North Central Ohio
Posts: 923
Likes: 848
Liked 597 Times in 332 Posts
Default

Just an FYI, Xtreme also offers a duplicate to the Berry's that there is a recipe for. The bullet by extreme is HPCBRN which is HP-for Heavy Plated, CB-for Concave Base and RN-for Round Nose and these are rated by Xtreme for velocities over 1200fps to 1500fps. They are only about $5 more per 500.
These HPCBRN shoot great for me using the recipes offered for the Berry's bullets of same design.
Karl
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2015, 09:27 PM
Talking Monkey's Avatar
Talking Monkey Talking Monkey is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 15
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
I can save you some time and trouble, since there are hundreds of people who shoot this exact load in competition, including me.
My Dillon throws 4.0 gr of Titegroup and the OAL is 1.155" with the 124gr plated bullet.
It makes minor power out of a 4.25" bbl M&P9 Pro.
Thanks OKFC05. That's what I plan to use these for - IDPA and USPSA with my GLOCK 34. So have you worked up from 3.6gr as was recommended by Hodgdon and found 4.0gr to be optimal?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-14-2015, 10:28 PM
otisrush otisrush is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 648
Likes: 177
Liked 576 Times in 285 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking Monkey View Post
Thanks OKFC05. That's what I plan to use these for - IDPA and USPSA with my GLOCK 34. So have you worked up from 3.6gr as was recommended by Hodgdon and found 4.0gr to be optimal?
My apologies if you're aware of this but I'll say it anyway since you commented you're a new reloader:

Plunk testing is critical. I completely concur with Rule3's comment:

Your COL will vary depending on YOUR gun and barrel, you need to plunk test them for fit in your barrel.


I had a very sobering experience where my first 9mm loads worked fine in my Hi Power but not only didn't work in my PPQ, but scared the ^*$# out of me when the cartridge was too long, the action wouldn't go into battery, and I couldn't open the action back up.

The optimum COL and load for your Glock may be quite different from what is optimum for someone else, even if you're both using the same bullet, powder, etc.

OR
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-14-2015, 11:00 PM
Talking Monkey's Avatar
Talking Monkey Talking Monkey is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 15
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by otisrush View Post
My apologies if you're aware of this but I'll say it anyway since you commented you're a new reloader:

Plunk testing is critical. I completely concur with Rule3's comment:

Your COL will vary depending on YOUR gun and barrel, you need to plunk test them for fit in your barrel.


I had a very sobering experience where my first 9mm loads worked fine in my Hi Power but not only didn't work in my PPQ, but scared the ^*$# out of me when the cartridge was too long, the action wouldn't go into battery, and I couldn't open the action back up.

The optimum COL and load for your Glock may be quite different from what is optimum for someone else, even if you're both using the same bullet, powder,

OR
No apologies necessary. Any information is welcome. To clarify, we're talking about doing this to find optimal OAL? Obviously, there must be a fairly generic OAL that works across a wide range of guns, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to use mass produced factory ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-14-2015, 11:53 PM
otisrush otisrush is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 648
Likes: 177
Liked 576 Times in 285 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking Monkey View Post
No apologies necessary. Any information is welcome. To clarify, we're talking about doing this to find optimal OAL? Obviously, there must be a fairly generic OAL that works across a wide range of guns, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to use mass produced factory ammo.
You're hitting on a point that I, frankly, was totally stunned by when I started reloading pistol: We have to be sure the cartridge fits in each pistol we'll shoot the rounds out of. Unfortunately the issue is not just COL - but it's COL for a given bullet. Two bullets of the same weight, from different bullet manufacturers, may require different COLs. The two big variables are 1/ the bullet ogive - which is a measure of where the shoulder rounds and 2/ the shortness (or "lengthness") of your gun's chamber relative to where the rifling starts. My PPQ chamber is known for being quite short. So while my Hi Power could take a relatively long COL, it needed to be short to fit in the PPQ. Additionally, the specific profile of the bullet I was using meant it had to be seated fairly deeply in order to plunk correctly.

The added issue with 9mm is that it's a high pressure round. Pressures go up very quickly as you go to deeper bullet seating depths. So IMHO you need to seat the bullet deep enough so it plunks correctly, but that's about it. Don't "go to town" seating it deeper and deeper because you'll build up pressures quickly. Just this weekend I was setting up my dies for a new bullet I bought. I was down to measuring a few thousandths of seating depth to find precisely where it would plunk and where it would not. I didn't want it to go any deeper than what I absolutely needed it to.

I presume commercial ammo manufacturers use bullet profiles that are very slender so as to not run into issues as you describe.

OR

Last edited by otisrush; 12-14-2015 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-15-2015, 12:35 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 8,117
Likes: 3,439
Liked 5,072 Times in 2,140 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking Monkey View Post
Thanks OKFC05. That's what I plan to use these for - IDPA and USPSA with my GLOCK 34. So have you worked up from 3.6gr as was recommended by Hodgdon and found 4.0gr to be optimal?
You must be really new to completion loading. There is a site by Brian Enos that has lots of information from people already loading for competition that you might find very interesting.
When you're shooting the same loads as used by hundreds of competitors, you don't reinvent the wheel and "load up to optimal accuracy." You start with a proven load that meets power factor, verify reliability and power factor with a chronograph in your gun, then see how well you shoot it.
Then fine tune from there. Loads that don't make power factor are worthless in competition when the man with the chrono says "DQ."
Shooting slowfire from a rest, I can knock down plates at 50 yards with the load I gave you, but slowfire from a rest is a luxury you don't have in action pistol games.
I shoot M&Ps but one in the family shoots a G34. Combined, we have shot over 100K of my 9mm reloads.
__________________
Science plus Art

Last edited by OKFC05; 12-15-2015 at 12:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 12-15-2015, 10:16 AM
Talking Monkey's Avatar
Talking Monkey Talking Monkey is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 15
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
You must be really new to completion loading. There is a site by Brian Enos that has lots of information from people already loading for competition that you might find very interesting.
When you're shooting the same loads as used by hundreds of competitors, you don't reinvent the wheel and "load up to optimal accuracy." You start with a proven load that meets power factor, verify reliability and power factor with a chronograph in your gun, then see how well you shoot it.
Then fine tune from there. Loads that don't make power factor are worthless in competition when the man with the chrono says "DQ."
Shooting slowfire from a rest, I can knock down plates at 50 yards with the load I gave you, but slowfire from a rest is a luxury you don't have in action pistol games.
I shoot M&Ps but one in the family shoots a G34. Combined, we have shot over 100K of my 9mm reloads.
Thanks for the advice. Yes, I am really new to all of this. I've been competing for a couple of years and finally decided that I should probably start reloading. Right now, I wouldn't consider any information you're willing to give as "too basic". I've read through the Lyman manual and am currently reading the Speer manual. Just trying to gather as much info as possible so I can do this safely.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 12-15-2015, 11:13 AM
old&slow old&slow is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: central, Ohio
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 1,038
Liked 1,305 Times in 542 Posts
Default

+1 on the 'plunk test' ..
The chamber on my Glock and CZ are shorter than on some of my other 9's.

If I use a 147 gr TC FP, I have to watch my overall length, as it will stick the bullet into the rifling on those two firearms. My max. OAL with the TC FP is 1.135.
However, with the 147 FMJ RN or a Xtreme 147 RN,, it doesn't jam into the rifling and OAL isn't as critical for me with the RN bullet.

And as someone else said, 9mm is a high pressure load . max loads and OAL can change pressure rapidly.

( I know you said 124 gr. ,, Just referring to OAL / bullets shape / chamber length )

Last edited by old&slow; 12-15-2015 at 11:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-15-2015, 11:40 AM
gnystrom gnystrom is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 1,060
Liked 2,101 Times in 859 Posts
Default

I have run 4.0 Titegroup on all brands of plated 124 gr. for years.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 12-15-2015, 01:43 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 12,793
Likes: 2,921
Liked 11,833 Times in 5,302 Posts
Default

The plunk test is always nice to try, just to see "Where it is at", so to speak.
I just broke my C9 down last night and ran ALL my bullets through it from short to "Maximum" touch the lands OAL !!

Most loading data has been studied and tested and should be close for most "Standard" pistol chambers but there are those that have a short throat and those like mine that must be sword swallowers...............

Berry calls out for around 1.13" OAL for its 115gr plated RN bullet.............124gr not listed.
My pistol with the Xtreme bullets, does well in the accuracy target loads at 1.14" to 1.165" with their 124gr plated but when I went to see how deep it needs to sit to hit the rifling/lands I was amazed to find out that measurement came out to a whopping...............
1.233" OAL.
Just tossing these numbers out there since I found them interesting.

My minimum for this bullet was at 1.12" but it did much better in accuracy with the test with longer OAL lengths starting around 1.14" to the maximum for me at 1.165", with all my target loads but the long setting did cut the speed down a lot.

Here is a picture on my final testing with the 124gr with a OAL of 1.165" at fifteen feet with a 3.5" barrel off a rest, when I was doing my chrony work for my powders..... minus the powder grs.
As a note, 701 fps did clear the barrel but it also had fail to eject the cases..... not a keeper.


Last edited by Nevada Ed; 12-15-2015 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 12-16-2015, 11:27 AM
Talking Monkey's Avatar
Talking Monkey Talking Monkey is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 35
Likes: 15
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Out of curiosity, I asked Xtreme if I can use the 124gr TMJ load data in Speer #14 with their 124gr RN bullets and Titegroup. Their response back to me was, "That reloading data will be perfect."

It makes sense to me because the starting load listed (4.0gr) is what most people seem to be using (although the OAL length listed in the book is a little less - 1.135") and because TMJ bullets, like Xtreme's, are in fact plated.

From Speer Reloading Manual #14, Page 732, "TMJ - The Ulitmate Full-Metal-Jacket Bullet": (italics are mine)
"To overcome all [of the drawbacks of old-style open base FMJ's], Speer applied Uni-Cor technology to create the highest evolutionary product among 'full-jacket' bullets - TMJ. We swage a hardened lead core and then form a jacket one molecule at a time through chemical electro-plating."

From the description of "Uni-Cor" on page 729:
"After swaging and cleaning, the [lead] cores are placed in a computer-controlled electro-chemical plating system to receive the copper jacket literally one molecule at a time. Jacket thickness ranges from 0.007 inches to over 0.030 inches depending on the bullet's intended use."

Interestingly, both Xtreme and Speer are located in Lewiston, ID - makes you wonder if the bullets are exactly the same.

Last edited by Talking Monkey; 12-17-2015 at 09:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-16-2015, 02:44 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm New reloader needs advice on loads for Xtreme 124gr RN 9mm  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,230
Likes: 4,399
Liked 5,988 Times in 2,932 Posts
Default

seems to me your jumping into reloading with your eyes fully fixed on economy.
It's not a bad thing really, but you tend to get stuck in cheapskate gear across the board.

Your primer is more of less a constant.
your bullet is always the most expensive part.
the difference between powders is a fraction of a cent.

Look up Power Pistol, BE-86, AutoComp, and CFE pistol.
These should make the numbers you need without breaking a sweat.
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for advice on new loads for 38 Sp AZ_M&P Reloading 27 12-14-2015 09:15 PM
9mm Plated 124gr Xtreme FP load info ontargetagain Reloading 7 08-05-2015 11:02 PM
Available powders for Xtreme 223 loads smokindog Reloading 12 02-13-2014 10:35 AM
Advice on Silhouette loads for M57 Kaumheimer Reloading 10 01-14-2011 07:33 PM
Advice to a tyro reloader. oldRoger Reloading 10 03-09-2009 06:51 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:38 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)