Hand loading your self defense ammo?

[flyrobb]

I have been wondering about hand loading self-defense ammo. The common wisdom is to make sure your S.D. ammo is reliable in your carry gun and to practice with it. Well with the price of factory S.D. ammo this can get pretty expensive so it would seem hand loading makes sense. I have read threads regarding the legal side of not loading your on ammo for S.D. and that’s a debate for another thread.

For this thread I want do know how you would go about loading and testing your own S.D. ammo.

Some questions that I have are:
1. Would you try to copy a factory load as closely as possible?
2. Would you use new brass vs previously fired?
3. Would you hand weigh each charge to ensure consistency?
4. How many rounds would you test before feeling comfortable carrying it?
5. Would you pick a specific powder?
6. Any other thoughts or ideas?

Or is this just a really bad idea and not worthy of discussion?

[Warthogge]

I wouldn't use reloads for self defense. Mainly for the reason you said it's a debate for another thread.

[Bkreutz]

I would only use my handloaded ammo for SD, I've had too many factory failures. I use the same load I use for competition so it shoots exactly the same.

[Twoboxer]

Yes, I load my own SD ammo.

Originally Posted by flyrobb

Some questions that I have are:
1. Would you try to copy a factory load as closely as possible?

The only thing I copy is the bullet used by the local police, in my case the XTP. If/when asked, that's my one and only reason. I figure they have done all the thinking and balanced pros and cons. If they haven't, I'm in good company lol. Velocity is chrono'd and chosen as it is for all other loads, ie, based on accuracy with me on the trigger. With 380 Auto, though, I would prefer a hotter load over a small gain in accuracy.

2. Would you use new brass vs previously fired?

Relatively young, fine brass. Doesn't need to be new, just need to have known its complete history.

3. Would you hand weigh each charge to ensure consistency?

Yes, for the ammo in my mags. ("Yes" also meaning loading on a single stage) That's a level of care that makes me feel comfortable that each round will fire and actually exit the barrel . But I wouldn't hesitate to throw the powder if I were gonna shoot a thousand of them. (This also meaning loading them on a progressive.)

4. How many rounds would you test before feeling comfortable carrying it?

After load development, not many if any would be required. But I don't consider a load developed until it has produced the results I want a few different trips to the range. Probably no more than 100 all told.

5. Would you pick a specific powder?

Don't know quite how to answer this lol. So let me just say I have already chosen powders for all my calibers, so I know them and feel comfortable with them.

6. Any other thoughts or ideas?

Yes. If you have any doubts about your ammo, stick to factory. You need to be confident once that firearm is in your hands. What *I* do isn't quite as important as what *you* feel *you* must do.

Or is this just a really bad idea and not worthy of discussion?

I suppose I've indicated my answer to this

[flyrobb]

Well put Twoboxer, Thanks! I do have as box of 230gr. XTP's I think I'll load up and try at the range for starters.

[roscoepc]

For my 9mm Ruger P95 I use only OTC rounds for it: 124gr Federal RSN jacketed for TP and 124gr JHP Federal Hydro Shoks for SD...

That said...

If all I can get too is my 500, it's loaded with 350gr Hornady XTP JHP bullets loaded to produce about 1100fps which will get the job done IF NEEDED!!!!

I've tested my loads at the range and, short of chronographing them, they have proved to be a reliable, controllable round.

Attention!!!!!! If anyone has a problem with my using my 500 for SD, Please... Keep your opinions to yourself and don't trash up the OP's thread with why it's a bad choice to use for SD purposes!! I will report your post as what you're saying will add nothing to answer the OP's original post....

My choice of what I defend myself with is MY choice not yours!!! So leave this sleeping dog alone and Thanks for your restraint!!

[otisrush]

Just thinking theoretically:

I would think you'd want to do some "kind of rough" testing, such as:
Fire it pointing straight up, or close to it, if possible.
Fire it pointing straight down, or close to it, if possible.
Fire it after the gun/ammo have been in sub-freezing temps for a long time.
Fire it after the gun/ammo have been locked in your car on a summer day for a long time.

We tend to test our ammo (and practice our skills) in pretty pristine environments. You'd hate to have to use it, say, in -10 degree weather and have to learn at that point whether those loads (and the gun) can handle 10 below.

OR

P.S.: I guess this applies just as much to factory ammo as reloads.

[venomballistics]

This is a great way to start a fight.
But, let's play anyhow.
1) No, I don't reload to copy factory ammo. Why would I start here?
2) the brass need only be reasonably low mileage.
3) if you are compelled to hand weigh each charge, you have probably chosen your sd load poorly. This load is the same as your high volume range load for your carry gun. You will know it like a mistress.
4) reliability it's almost all I shoot from that particular gun. I might adopt it at the 50 to 100 mark, but it never really leaves the evaluation state.
5) specific powder. Kinda. I will evaluate a few powders out of a desired range of burn rates, as I am looking for the result to be within a range of energy yield. Why bother with something that can't deliver it.
6) other stuff .... shoot things with the load. Know what it can and can't do against car doors, critters, engine blocks, drywall, glass, wood, wedding cake, and anything else that you can give a heavy metal injection to without going to jail. You will rather know today when it will fail, than find out when you need it.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by otisrush

Just thinking theoretically:

I would think you'd want to do some "kind of rough" testing, such as:
Fire it pointing straight up, or close to it, if possible.
Fire it pointing straight down, or close to it, if possible.
Fire it after the gun/ammo have been in sub-freezing temps for a long time.
Fire it after the gun/ammo have been locked in your car on a summer day for a long time.

We tend to test our ammo (and practice our skills) in pretty pristine environments. You'd hate to have to use it, say, in -10 degree weather and have to learn at that point whether those loads (and the gun) can handle 10 below.

OR

P.S.: I guess this applies just as much to factory ammo as reloads.

Hadn't considered these points. Another good reason to test more ammo!

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

This is a great way to start a fight.
But, let's play anyhow.

6) other stuff .... shoot things with the load. Know what it can and can't do against car doors, critters, engine blocks, drywall, glass, wood, wedding cake, and anything else that you can give a heavy metal injection to without going to jail. You will rather know today when it will fail, than find out when you need it.

Well, certainly not trying to start a fight just had this nagging question rattling round in the nogg'n.


venomballistics, your a genius! Now I know what to do with that piece of wedding cake that's been in our freezer for 31 years.

[scooter123]

My carry load is a high energy 40 caliber Speer Gold Dot featuring the 165 grain bullet loaded to 1150 fps per Speer's specifications. As might be expected this particular load has a bit of a "bark" to it and a distinctly snappy recoil.

Due to the high potential of this being a flinch builder and distinctly limited availability I hand load an exact ballistic match using a 165 grain Extreme heavy plate HP using Hodgdon Longshot. Note, by exact I mean that both the Speer and my hand load actually clock at average of 1150 fps from my Sig P229 with my chronograph. I'll also note that the flash profile and muzzle blast are identical in a side by side comparison.

And yeah, my hand load is also a Flinch Builder, which is why I only shoot a maximum of 50 rounds of these hot loads at a range session. However it does allow me to practice with what I carry without incurring a 1 dollar per round cost. As for the potential of differing functional reliability between the two bullets, my carry pistol is a Sig Sauer P239 with a history of NEVER failing in over 4000 rounds fired and about 10 boxes were those Speer Gold Dots.

I'll also admit that I've considered purchasing some 165 grain Gold Dots and loading my own. Fact is that if I had saved the nickel cases from my prior shooting of this ammunition there wouldn't be any way a Court could know I had used hand loads unless I told the police. Having seen the multitude of videos showing why you don't try and "talk" your way out of charges resulting from a shooting that won't happen, I'll let my lawyer do the talking.

[kbm6893]

I weigh every charge anyway. I like my hands and my guns too much to risk it. Never been off by more than a couple of grains here and there, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

And I don't see how anybody would even know if I used hand loads (which I don't for SD) as long as all the brass was the same.

[springer99]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

This is a great way to start a fight.
But, let's play anyhow.
1) No, I don't reload to copy factory ammo. Why would I start here?
2) the brass need only be reasonably low mileage.
3) if you are compelled to hand weigh each charge, you have probably chosen your sd load poorly. This load is the same as your high volume range load for your carry gun. You will know it like a mistress.
4) reliability it's almost all I shoot from that particular gun. I might adopt it at the 50 to 100 mark, but it never really leaves the evaluation state.
5) specific powder. Kinda. I will evaluate a few powders out of a desired range of burn rates, as I am looking for the result to be within a range of energy yield. Why bother with something that can't deliver it.
6) other stuff .... shoot things with the load. Know what it can and can't do against car doors, critters, engine blocks, drywall, glass, wood, wedding cake, and anything else that you can give a heavy metal injection to without going to jail. You will rather know today when it will fail, than find out when you need it.

++1 on these points. I would add that on point 4, I consider a minimum of 100 rounds thru an auto, to confirm feeding, extraction and ejection. On my revolvers, I mark one round, then load and fire a full cylinder except for the marked round. Keep that same marked round in, load and fire another cylinder full. If the recoil hasn't made my crimp jump on the marked round(and other conditions such as accuracy, velocity, etc are good), then I"m GTG with that load.

[Forrest r]

Originally Posted by roscoepc

Attention!!!!!! If anyone has a problem with my using my 500 for SD, Please... Keep your opinions to yourself and don't trash up the OP's thread with why it's a bad choice to use for SD purposes!! I will report your post as what you're saying will add nothing to answer the OP's original post....

Relax, that would be an excellent choice!!! I'd hate to put my catchers mitt on and have you throw a couple of them my way.

I like heavy bullets/hp's and 1100fps myself. Some home swaged 265gr jacketed hp's for the 44mag shot into bundles of wet newspaper @ 25yds.



As far as loading my own sd ammo???? I have 15+ hp molds and swage my own jacketed hp bullets for 5 different rifle and pistol calibers.

[fredj338]

As a general rule, I would not. I get a chuckle from guys thinking they can make better ammo than the manuf. You only need to run one full mag of each carry mag to determine your guns reliability with that ammo. If there is an issue, it's showing up early not late.
The other reason to not load your own, in general, is you aren't getting the best bullets available. The HST is currently the darling carry round, with good reason. It's not available to the handloade as a rule. I can afford a 50rd box to verify functioning & another 50rd box for carry. That should last me at least 2-3yrs & that is rotating ammo annually.
Where I do consider reloading my own is something like the 44mag, where you have few options. If I am toting a 44mag into the woods, when I hit town, it's nice to drop a speed loader of midrange 250gr lhp into the cyl & go. This would apply to something like the 500 as well. A 330gr soft lead hp @ 1000fps would be pretty easy to shoot in a 4" 500.

[bluetopper]

If you were to have to use your ammo is such a circumstance the notion of you using reloads would never arise in my opinion unless you used some unusual type of cast lead bullet....say a double end wadcutter. Which is really what I prefer.

[BB57]

[QUOTE=flyrobb;138809157]I have been wondering about hand loading self-defense ammo. The common wisdom is to make sure your S.D. ammo is reliable in your carry gun and to practice with it. Well with the price of factory S.D. ammo this can get pretty expensive so it would seem hand loading makes sense. I have read threads regarding the legal side of not loading your on ammo for S.D. and that’s a debate for another thread.

For this thread I want do know how you would go about loading and testing your own S.D. ammo.

Some questions that I have are:[/QUOTE]


1. Would you try to copy a factory load as closely as possible?The key issue is to ensure the velocity achieved by the hollow point bullet is within the comparatively narrow range of velocity that will allow it fully expand and achieve adequate penetration. If the velocity is too high, it will over expand or expand too soon and under penetrate. If the velocity is too low, the bullet may under expand or not expand at all and over penetrate.

Consequently you need to know the velocity envelope for the bullet.

You also need to know the actual velocity of your load in your handgun. But that's true with any self defense load, and the ability to tailor the velocity is one of the advantages of hand loading your own.

2. Would you use new brass vs previously fired?There is no significant technical difference between new brass and once fired brass. Consequently I use either new brass or clean and inspected known by me to be once fired brass. Practically speaking this means I load into new brass, then when I expend that carry ammo down range after carrying it for 2-3 months, I recycle that brass once by reloading it as self defense ammo, then drop it in the regular reload pile after it is once again expended.

3. Would you hand weigh each charge to ensure consistency? I do, but depending on the powder and measure used it's usually over kill. In practice, it means verifying the exact charge weight in each round. But it's worth my time as I only load 100 rounds of SD ammo at a time compared to 500-1000 rounds at a time on my Dillon, and it provides extra piece of mind with minimal extra time invested.


4. How many rounds would you test before feeling comfortable carrying it?The answer is the same regardless of whether you use factory ammo or hand loaded ammo.

For a semi-auto I regard 200 rounds as the minimum, and that assumes 100% reliability with the pistol, magazines and ammo combined. The main things I am looking for are:

a) consistent velocity (an SD about 15-18 fps or less).
b) velocity in the required range
c) no evidence of set back after repeated chambering
d) 100% reliability in the pistol and in each magazine to be carried.

For a revolver I'd consider as few as 50 rounds. They main things I look for in a revolver are:

a) consistent velocity (an SD about 15-18 fps or less).
b) velocity in the required range
c) no evidence of bullets backing out under recoil (which can prevent cylinder rotation)
d) 100% reliability in ignition and in ejection from the cylinder with no "stickiness".
e) an absence of unburnt powder grains, which can lodge under the ejector and prevent the cylinder from closing on a re-load.

5. Would you pick a specific powder?
Not a specific powder, but I insist that the powder used meet certain requirements:

a) achieve the required velocity and SD with the load in the specific barrel length and within the maximum pressure limits.
b) not display unburned powder grains in a revolver.
c) accurate measuring and no potential for powder bridging - which could cause a squib load.

6. Any other thoughts or ideas?You want 100% ignition reliability and that means taking care to ensure there is no contact with the primers and any oil, including skin oil.

You will want to carefully visually inspect each round, and you'll want to use a chamber gauge and ensure the round both drops in the gauge and drops out freely with no pressure needed in either direction.

Or is this just a really bad idea and not worthy of discussion?Massad Ayoob provide an example of the forensic issues that can occur, and people often quote that as an example of why you don't want to hand load self defense ammo - but it's a mis-application of what he said.

In Ayoob's example, a woman shot her self with her husband's gun and hand loads. Unfortunately he was a hand loader and had several types of ammo available for that handgun. The wife shot herself with a very light target load, but the forensic analysis was done on a much heavier load, with the result that they felt the lack of powder stippling on the body suggested a greater shooting distance that precluded her from shooting herself, and thus the husband became a suspect, was charged and had to hire his own ballistics experts (including Ayoob) to eventually clear himself.

This gets used as an example, of why you should not hand load your own self defense ammo, as there is no known data base of factory loads with which to compare the forensic evidence with your story.

That is however flawed as the forensic task in a self defense shoot is not a case of trying to match a gunshot wound to an unknown assailant based on ammo and firearm found on the assailant later. Rather it is a case of just having to match your ammo with the forensic evidence at the scene to ensure your story matches the forensics.

In this case, what you need is to ensure your self defense ammo is stored separately from any other ammo (hand loaded or factory) and is clearly marked as your self defense load. In effect, the police can then use this clearly marked ammo to test against the forensics from the scene to verify that your story hold water.

As such Ayoob's example isn't advice not to use hand loaded self defense ammo,it's just a caution that as ammo with out an existing data base, additional testing may be needed, and that you need to ensure your self defense loads are segregated and clearly marked - and that's sound advice even with factory self defense ammo. For example, even if you use factory .357 Magnum ammo, if you store it with your other .357 factory ammo or hand loads, the potential exits for the police to confuse head stamps and impound the wrong ammo for testing, which may lead to inconsistencies in the forensic investigation.

[nicky4968]

There has to be one old fogey, and I am he.
I handload .38 Special.
I load 158 gr lrn, 158 gr lswc, 195 gr lrn, 170 gr lswc, 148 gr wc (several varieties.)
under the 158s I load 4.3 grs Unique.
under the 195 I load 3.6 grs Unique
under the 170 I load 4.1 grs Unique
under the wadcutters I load 3.3 grs of Unique.
None of them are "world changing".
I used to hot rod but I've given it up. I can't equal a .30-30 Winchester or a .30-40 Krag out of a handgun and I'm not going to try.
If I carry, it is one of the above rounds.
For SD I prefer the 16 gauge (slugs) Auto 5 or the .30-30.

[Art Doc]

As many answers to this question as there are people with opinions.

As for me, some of my SD ammo is my own. I don't load 380 so in that gun I carry pricey high performance factory loads. Practice with cheaper hard ball.

Using own loads MAY be an issue following a shooting. It is defensible but a prosecutor or civil attorney would try to paint you as a crazed Rambo wannabe. If I lived in an area that was anti-gun I would likely stick with factory fodder.

[bigggbbruce]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

I weigh every charge anyway. I like my hands and my guns too much to risk it. Never been off by more than a couple of grains here and there, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

That's a serious problem. Better get closer than that.

2 extra grains under let's say 124gr 9mm.

[Nevada Ed]

If I were to use my reloads for SD and had to use them.........

I would make sure I had a second magazine or revolver loader with ...

Factory ammo, just in case the cops wanted a sample of your ammo !!

Done deal...........

[bigggbbruce]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

I would make sure I had a second magazine or revolver loader with ...

Factory ammo, just in case the cops wanted a sample of your ammo !!

Done deal...........

Not sure of the charges, but they would be significant.

[Duckford]

There is a wide, massive, cavernous divide between people bulk reloading and slow reloading match grade ammunition. My handloaded centerfire rifle hunting loads have always been superior to factory, and match shooters often times reload their own ammunition. When people claim that handloads are inferior to factory, I wholeheartedly disagree, IF the handloader is doing a very slow, careful job. The truth is, the handloader has wide discretion over his quality control, worse than the factory if he's sloppy, and far better than any factory if he's careful. I'm meticulous, probably way to slow for a lot of purposes, but in the end I do gain quality. I may not push out 2,000 rounds of any type of ammunition in an afternoon, but I have complete faith in what I do load.

So, for the people trying to churn out ammo by the crateful in short amounts of time, probably not. For those who are very careful, you probably will outdo the factory. Only you know your practices, and in the end, you rely on your own work. Sometimes, you can be your own worst enemy.

As for the forensics, you should probably have a large supply of your self defense rounds in storage anyways, and you should have a ton on hand for regular practice. It would seem unlikely that someone would load just six rounds for self defense, never fire them to test them, and only have them loaded for the particular scenario. Also, if you are the kind of scaredy cat reloader who tends to stick to prescribed recipes, you could always at least attempt to hand whoever it concerns the exact method and components for the load for testing, at the very least.

In the end, only you are the final judge. If you are a cut the corner bulk reloader, probably not. As for me, I would not be hesitant to use my own reloads.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by Duckford

...The truth is, the handloader has wide discretion over his quality control, worse than the factory if he's sloppy, and far better than any factory if he's careful. I'm meticulous, probably way to slow for a lot of purposes, but in the end I do gain quality. I may not push out 2,000 rounds of any type of ammunition in an afternoon, but I have complete faith in what I do load.

In general I am amazed that factory ammo (rifle or pistol) does as well as it does. A manufacturer needs to develop loads that don't just perform well in one particular firearm or even one type of firearm, but rather in a very wide range of firearms chambered in that caliber. It's impressive that they can achieve that.

A major advantage of hand loading is being able to tailor a load to your particular firearm, and that can be a real advantage with some self defense handguns. For example, getting consistent velocity, accuracy and a lack of unburnt powder residue in a 3" .357 Magnum can be a challenge if you're limiting yourself to factory ammo.

Slower burning (for a handgun) colloidal ball powders are the norm in factory loaded .357 Magnum loads as most companies load for maximum velocity in a 4" to 6" barrel, and those powders have significant downsides in a 3" .357 Mag.

The ability to use a medium speed powder like Unique and trade maybe 100 fps in velocity for lower recoil (due to both lower velocity and lighter powder charge weight), lower muzzle flash, less powder residue, and much greater consistency is a real advantage with that revolver/caliber combination.

...Also, if you are the kind of scaredy cat reloader who tends to stick to prescribed recipes, you could always at least attempt to hand whoever it concerns the exact method and components for the load for testing, at the very least.

I print the entire recipe on the label for the self defense ammo, along with the average velocity in my handgun. Even if there were none left, the ballistician could replicate it and confirm the velocity. The reality though is that I usually load another 100 rounds when I get down to the last box of 50, so I almost always have between 40 and 150 rounds on hand in a box or boxes at home.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by bigggbbruce

That's a serious problem. Better get closer than that.

2 extra grains under let's say 124gr 9mm.

You're right. I meant a couple tenths of a grain. I load .38 Special to 3.2 grains of red Dot. The recipe calls for between 3.0 and 3.4 for standard loads, and up to 3.8 for +p. I shoot for 3.2 (Red Dot doesn't meter that well), and will allow .1 grains either way.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by bigggbbruce

That's a serious problem. Better get closer than that.

2 extra grains under let's say 124gr 9mm.

Yeah no krap! Depending on powder & cartridge, 2gr off is enough to KB a gun.
The other issue with reloads is powder choice. Most sd ammo uses low flash powders. While some are available in canister form for the reloaders, not many choices. If I were loading my own sd ammo, I would choose once fired brass, you know it works. Hand weighing charges not necessary with most powders.
As far as practicing with your carry ammo, less important than just practicing. No diff between cheap ball ammo for practice & sim expensive jhp. As long as your poi is the same, how you practice is more important than what you practice with.

[scooter123]

BB57 makes and excellent point concerning the 357 Magnum. I recently acquired a 2 1/2 inch 1971 vintage model 19 and have found it to be one of my most enjoyable revolvers to shoot.

Concerns about damaging the forcing cone on this little gem has led me to develop some "off the chart" 357 Sub Magnums using Accurate #5 with either a 158 grain Hornady XTP or 140 grain FTX. I also managed to score a couple of boxes of the 135 grain short barrel Speer Gold Dot bullets on one of my scrounging missions to the Fin in Ashland, Ohio and have tested these bullets along with the loads featuring the Hornady bullets. The end result is a load that falls between the listed starting charge for 357 Magnum and the maximum charge for 38 +P in Accurate's load manual so the probable pressures should be in the mid to high 20 KSI range.

The end result is that I have some very clean shooting Magnum Lites that are somewhat soft shooting with a low flash profile and very very accurate. As a result of this I currently have 50 rounds of these sub Magnums loaded with the short barrel Gold Dots in my "just in case" stash and suspect they would make for a really superb SD round for use in one of the featherweight J frames. Sometime next summer I'll get out the chronograph and do some testing to see just what kind of energy these rounds are producing.

[fredj338]

If you can ever find any scooter, the 145gr wsthp is a terrific snub load. I run it in my m66 & sp101, but I am hoarding the rest of the only box I have.

[Calliope]

The only ammo I ever have is my handloads. So I guess by default I'm loading my own defensive ammo.

.45 auto because I can get good power with low noise and moderate recoil.

200 grain SWC because it's a proven all around design. 200 grain was also JMB's 1st choice in bullet weight for the .45 auto.

If I knew I was loading defensive ammo I would use my stash of nice CCI large primer brass, chances are though that you'll find me with small primer Blazer brass because I have a lot of small primers.

Bullseye powder because it's easy to ignite with any primer including small primers. Also Bullseye has a proven 100+ year track record.

Bullseye meters very reliably in my measure, and I weigh about 10%, I inspect each charge by eye before I seat a bullet, so I'm confident in my charges.

I've shot many thousands of SWCs in my HK45C without a hiccup, so I have no worries there.

It may not be the hottest load out there, but I feel pretty confident with it.

[Engineer1911]

This quite a p-contest and the puddle is getting bigger. I thought it was shot placement and stop the threat to you or your family.

Anything else is background static, pointless, or internet garbleing.

[Nevada Ed]

"Not sure of the charges, but they would be significant. "

Well how much would it be if I gave them a different gun......?? !!

You know, like a $199 blue light special , instead of a $450 weapon that one of the cops might find nice an think that I might not ever need again out of the evidence locker ?? !!

[mgrandick]

An interesting note. My handload .380 ammo has had quite a few ftf when I'm using the factory crimp die. Absolutely 0 when not factory crimping. I use factory ammo I'm just more confident that way.

[Squarebutt]

This topic pops up now and then, and the discussion sometimes gets heated. Good to see that it hasn't happened today. Everyone is free to choose his/her own firearm and ammo, and I won't criticize anyone else's choices. After careful consideration, I've decided to stay with factory loads in any of my guns that might need to be used in self defense. It's not a coincidence that my ammo is the same stuff that's issued by numerous law enforcement agencies.
I'm a careful reloader, and I wouldn't hesitate to use my own loads to defend against a dangerous wild animal, but most of them don't employ lawyers and scientists looking to send me to prison and take my last dollar.
The problem with going into a legal situation after using handloads, as has been pointed out, is that there is no database. You're the only witness to how it was assembled. Taking the stand to discuss your ammo opens you up to answering tough questions about any and every aspect of the case. If it comes from a factory, they can answer the questions. Most jurors won't be knowledgeable about ballistics, gunpowder or hand loading, and an opposing lawyer can make any kind of wild claim which you can't refute unless you take the stand. In most cases the subject of ballistics never comes up, but why chance it?
By the way, no offense intended, but anyone who thinks he can fool the ballistics scientists by using the same bullets and headstamps as the factory stuff needs to watch CSI more often. The guy or gal behind the microscope will see the difference very quickly, and destroy your credibility in front of the jury.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Calliope

The only ammo I ever have is my handloads. So I guess by default I'm loading my own defensive ammo.

.45 auto because I can get good power with low noise and moderate recoil.

200 grain SWC because it's a proven all around design. 200 grain was also JMB's 1st choice in bullet weight for the .45 auto.

If I knew I was loading defensive ammo I would use my stash of nice CCI large primer brass, chances are though that you'll find me with small primer Blazer brass because I have a lot of small primers.

Bullseye powder because it's easy to ignite with any primer including small primers. Also Bullseye has a proven 100+ year track record.

Bullseye meters very reliably in my measure, and I weigh about 10%, I inspect each charge by eye before I seat a bullet, so I'm confident in my charges.

I've shot many thousands of SWCs in my HK45C without a hiccup, so I have no worries there.

It may not be the hottest load out there, but I feel pretty confident with it.

Ever shoot that combo at night with a light???? Good luck. There are a lot of better choices for powders today, 21st century & all that.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

This quite a p-contest and the puddle is getting bigger. I thought it was shot placement and stop the threat to you or your family.

Anything else is background static, pointless, or internet garbleing.

Well it is until you are in the civil lawyers sights. Just be able to defend your choices. A good shoot is just that, but civil trials only need 51% to win a verdict, just sayin.

[Geo. T.]

It's been a couple of years since I quit giving the Texas CHL classes. The Texas DPS advised against using hand loads in your carry gun. The reasoning was that a lawyer could use the case that you whipped up these man killers and just couldn't wait to give them a try. Any way when the cost of ammo is considered it's a small % of the total. I use a hand load that shoots to the same point of impact as my carry ammo.

I watched live court coverage of a trial in George Town Texas where they used the fact that a mans wife used hollow points proved that she intended to kill him. Despite a restraining order he kicked her door in and was hitting her when she shot and killed him. The jury did not buy it but still you never know this day and sage! Geo. T.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by Duckford

There is a wide, massive, cavernous divide between people bulk reloading and slow reloading match grade ammunition. My handloaded centerfire rifle hunting loads have always been superior to factory, and match shooters often times reload their own ammunition. When people claim that handloads are inferior to factory, I wholeheartedly disagree, IF the handloader is doing a very slow, careful job. The truth is, the handloader has wide discretion over his quality control, worse than the factory if he's sloppy, and far better than any factory if he's careful. I'm meticulous, probably way to slow for a lot of purposes, but in the end I do gain quality. I may not push out 2,000 rounds of any type of ammunition in an afternoon, but I have complete faith in what I do load.

So, for the people trying to churn out ammo by the crateful in short amounts of time, probably not. For those who are very careful, you probably will outdo the factory. Only you know your practices, and in the end, you rely on your own work. Sometimes, you can be your own worst enemy.

In the end, only you are the final judge. If you are a cut the corner bulk reloader, probably not. As for me, I would not be hesitant to use my own reloads.

This really gets to the heart of my original thought process when I posted this. If by being "meticulous" in our loading and we can produce better that factory ammo, it would seem to make sense to do so. I do consider myself VERY picky about all things I do and hand loading is no different.

Lots of good posts (some off topic)and info to digest to make my decision whether or not I will carry hand loaded S.D. ammo. I am certainly going to make up some and try them at the range and go from there. If I produce loads I am confident with then I will consider the legalities of carrying them???

[springer99]

Originally Posted by Geo. T.

It's been a couple of years since I quit giving the Texas CHL classes. The Texas DPS advised against using hand loads in your carry gun. The reasoning was that a lawyer could use the case that you whipped up these man killers and just couldn't wait to give them a try. Any way when the cost of ammo is considered it's a small % of the total. I use a hand load that shoots to the same point of impact as my carry ammo.

I watched live court coverage of a trial in George Town Texas where they used the fact that a mans wife used hollow points proved that she intended to kill him. Despite a restraining order he kicked her door in and was hitting her when she shot and killed him. The jury did not buy it but still you never know this day and sage! Geo. T.

I guess the legal theory here was that if she had used only factory, Hi-velocity Defense or Zombie rounds, then she had only intended to scare him and that would have been acceptable? I have to laugh whenever this topic gets churned up again and again.

MAYBE if I tipped my reloads with Plutonium or Arsenic, that argument might make sense. Until then, I'll stick with my reloads that I know perform well. Hunted with them for years. BTW, they tend to be old-fashioned Keith-style, heavy LSWC and not the latest fashionable HP version of the day.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by Geo. T.

It's been a couple of years since I quit giving the Texas CHL classes. The Texas DPS advised against using hand loads in your carry gun. The reasoning was that a lawyer could use the case that you whipped up these man killers and just couldn't wait to give them a try..../

/...I watched live court coverage of a trial in George Town Texas where they used the fact that a mans wife used hollow points proved that she intended to kill him. Despite a restraining order he kicked her door in and was hitting her when she shot and killed him. The jury did not buy it but still you never know this day and sage! Geo. T.

A civil lawyer can and will claim pretty much anything. I suspect if you use a top performing self defense load the lawyer will claim you bought those man killers and couldn't wait to give them a try.

Often, the advice is given to use the same ammo as the local police department, however once again a civil attorney will claim you bought the same man killers the police use and couldn't wait to give them a try.

If you shoot some one in self defense, you're probably going to get sued even if it was a legitimate case of self defense and what you were shooting will be irrelevant.

In my case, he'd have to figure out how to spin the fact that I use a hollow point that only expands to 1.5 times it's diameter, rather than 1.6 or 1.65 times their original diameter, and why the velocity of my loads is about 100 fps less than is the case with many self defense loads of the same weight.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by Geo. T.

It's been a couple of years since I quit giving the Texas CHL classes. The Texas DPS advised against using hand loads in your carry gun. The reasoning was that a lawyer could use the case that you whipped up these man killers and just couldn't wait to give them a try. Geo. T.

Ok, as the OP'er I shouldn't be going off topic on my own thread but this one puzzles me. Why couldn't a lawyer use the case that you pulled into the local guns store and bought a box of Critical Defense hollow point man killers and couldn't wait to give them a try. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Dang, you guys above beat me to it

[springer99]

Originally Posted by flyrobb

Ok, as the OP'er I shouldn't be going off topic on my own thread but this one puzzles me. Why couldn't a lawyer use the case that you pulled into the local guns store and bought a box of Critical Defense hollow point man killers and couldn't wait to give them a try. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Dang, you guys above beat me to it

YES, we have a winner. Now go back to post #8 and start with that.

[bluetopper]

If you loaded a name brand jacketed bullet HP or FMJ and had to use it, I don't think any agency would suspect it was handloaded.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by springer99

YES, we have a winner. Now go back to post #8 and start with that.

Maybe all the way back to post #1.

[Duckford]

Also keep in mind the nature of the legal system in the United States. Lawyers are not paid to do justice, they are paid to serve a client in civil matters, and are part of the adversarial system of law in criminal aspects. Prosecuto0rs aren't hired to do justice, they are there to press charges and make them stick at all costs. Lawyers for the plaintiff in civil court aren't there to do justice, they are there to win big bucks. That's just the way American law is.

If you use non expanding bullets, the opposing lawyer will mention how they are intended to punch deep into the flesh, intending to kill. What sounds worse than Full Metal Jacket? You used wad cutters? Why, you were carelessly punching holes through a living human being like he were a piece of target paper! Use a semi jacketed soft point, you were using hunting ammunition, because you were hunting other people! You use a cudgel to defend yourself, you savagely beat him to death for fun. You kill a man with a beanbag shotgun, you intended for him to linger and suffer. If you don't call for an ambulance, its proof you wanted him dead; if you do call for an ambulance, it was a cold calculated move on your part to appear sympathetic to get away with the perfect murder.

In the US system of law, everything you do will be used against you by someone twisting it into something its not. If you think you are clever by changing the proper ways of doing things to avoid this, you will gain nothing and have your actions still turned against you. Catch 22.

[rwsmith]

I feel good making SD ammo for all of my hand guns (and rifle but not for SD.

For 9mm. 125 grain JHP XTP or Gold Dot loaded hot

For .38 plus p I found a Sierra book with loads plus p that goes WAY over most books. I tried just starting loads in that category and found them to be so impressive that I didn't want to go any higher and actually dropped them back some, but still hotter than any max +P load in any book.

.357 is interesting. I use bottom end .357 loads with a 140 gr. JHP so that I can fire it in the house w/o blowing our ears out.


Now for practice I can simulate these loads with cast bullets and practice for a lot less money than the real thing.

As for the law, I live in SC and they pretty much don't care what ammo takes out an intruder or an attacker.

[tops]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

6) other stuff .... shoot things with the load. Know what it can and can't do against car doors, critters, engine blocks, drywall, glass, wood, wedding cake, and anything else that you can give a heavy metal injection to without going to jail. You will rather know today when it will fail, than find out when you need it.

Very good advice for reloads and factory loads. Larry

[Nix45]

If I carry a handgun for self-defense, it is probably loaded with reloads. I like the ammo I make: it has been reliable and consistent. I mess around with different powders and loads because that is the fun of hand loading for me. So odds are better than not that I have a new-ish load in my carry gun at any given time. I suppose eventually I'll settle on something I like and stick with.

I don't load 9mm Parabellum, so those would be factory loads, but I don't carry a 9mm much anymore.

[lrrifleman]

This has proven to be an interesting thread which has prompted me to evaluate my SD rounds versus my handloads. I tend to reload first to make the most ACCURATE ammo for any of my particular firearms, then to reduce the cost of shooting. In 95% of my handgun shooting, I am focusing on match distances of 25 or 50 yards, well beyond self defense range. If I am loading for handgun hunting, I am looking for both performance and accuracy.

For SD, I will be carrying either a 45, a 9mm, a 38 Special, or a 380, depending on the prevailing circumstances. Using the handgun hunting philosophy of using the largest bullet metplat possible to inflict incapacitating shock, that would apply to only the 38, for matters of reliable feeding.

Having reloaded for over 30 years, I am comfortable with the reliability of the ammo I have produced, especially since I have never experienced a misfire or squib load. That being said, I doubt that I want my first misfire to occur in a life and death SD situation. That is when I want my survivors to be able to turn to a producer should I perish using their product.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by lrrifleman

This has proven to be an interesting thread which has prompted me to evaluate my SD rounds versus my handloads. I tend to reload first to make the most ACCURATE ammo for any of my particular firearms, then to reduce the cost of shooting. In 95% of my handgun shooting, I am focusing on match distances of 25 or 50 yards, well beyond self defense range. If I am loading for handgun hunting, I am looking for both performance and accuracy.

For SD, I will be carrying either a 45, a 9mm, a 38 Special, or a 380, depending on the prevailing circumstances. Using the handgun hunting philosophy of using the largest bullet metplat possible to inflict incapacitating shock, that would apply to only the 38, for matters of reliable feeding.

Having reloaded for over 30 years, I am comfortable with the reliability of the ammo I have produced, especially since I have never experienced a misfire or squib load. That being said, I doubt that I want my first misfire to occur in a life and death SD situation. That is when I want my survivors to be able to turn to a producer should I perish using their product.

The target loads are assembled carefully with suitable bullets.

Medium plink or GP loads can be about anything.

I don't anticipate getting in an SD situation beyond short range, like inside of 10 yards. Accuracy, I can get them into a saucer sized pattern by shooting SD style instead of target.

My SD rounds are made to be TOUGH, not accurate. Highest velocity for that barrel but rounds made for indoor use are limited to a super .38 special +P level or similar due to blast.

The bullet will be at least a JHP or preferably a premium XTP, Gold Dot or similar. I don't mind using medium hard cast SWC hollow points. The weight will tend toward the heavier bullets, but I compromise to keep velocity high. Usually between 125 - 158 grain.

The choices I have are 9mm, .38 special and .357. Carrying will be a 9mm or .38 special. Home Defense is any of these plus .357 loaded to a really hot .38 special type load.

Wow, I think that's about it.

[jtcarm]

SD practice ammo: I'd say pick a load that best simulates your factory SD load: same bullet weight, style, velocity, recoil.

You can substitute an inexpensive bullet in the hand load, but: If the factory bullet and brass are available as components, and you're carrying a semi-auto, I would load enough to ensure reliable feeding. Even one FTF in 500 is too many. If the bullet isn't available, pick the closest you can find and load to the same length.