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Old 01-13-2016, 12:41 AM
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Default Really +P .38 special +P loads

What do you think of this old load for .38 special +P? With a 125 grain jacketed bullet, most load data today cuts off at 6 grains of Unique. Years ago I got some info from an old Sierra book, which I think catered to handgunner hunting loads at longer ranges. In other words, really stiff. The +P data was separate from the ordinary .38 special data. The starting load for +P was 6.4 grains of Unique and maxed at 7 grains of Unique.

I loaded a cylinderful of 6.4 grain jobs and went to the range.

BLAM!!!!!!

I didn't feel like the load was dangerous, but it definitely startled me and I decided to drop back to 6.2 grains as a max load. The question is, what would a 7 grain load have been like in my model 10?

I can test the load in my 686 and get some idea of the effect, but I can't help but think that this would be in the danger zone for a .38. I'll load up a few and try it.

In the meantime for your consideration. This gives me the impression that strong, modern guns are capable of much more than reloading books indicate. Now I'm NOT taking that as a license to increase my max loads for anything that isn't in a reliable data source. But I do wonder if that was a 'blast from the past' of what police .38s felt like in say, the 60s.

In the meantime, what do you guys think of a .38 special 125 grain jhp with 7 grains of Unique? Two full grains over the given max nowadays. Do any of you old timers that were reloading in the early 70's have any feel for this?

PS: This is for conversation only. In no way do I advocate using anything but modern, proven data for reloading.
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:26 AM
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My 686 6" got 1099 and 1210fps with the top load.

My M49 got 903fps with 6.0grs but 5.9grs hit the factory 880fps
and shot at POA with a little less recoil out of the steel frame.

Same weapon will push a 110gr JHP at 996fps with Alliant data
that makes it very close to a Cor-Bon loading.

Have fun
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:27 AM
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I've used 6.0 Unique under a 160gr. LSWC on and off for years, and my M13 and pre-M10 are still together and tight. Fine load.

Larry
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:56 AM
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Just out of curiosity RW, what did the brass look like? Any marks from the recoil sheild face or bushing?

I recently loaded up some +P loadings with hs-6 to try in my 66 and the brass got beat up more than normal. I was expecting some just not that much. They were very accurate but definitely had more punch. I don't usually dabble in +P so it could just be my inexperience. I haven't been futzing with .38 and .357 for all that long.

Outside of the cases were clean, inside still had quite a lot of unburnt powder. I can't seem to get that hs-6 to clean up, even with magnum primers and a tight crimp.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:16 AM
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Default It's been a long time but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ageingstudent View Post
Just out of curiosity RW, what did the brass look like? Any marks from the recoil sheild face or bushing?

I recently loaded up some +P loadings with hs-6 to try in my 66 and the brass got beat up more than normal. I was expecting some just not that much. They were very accurate but definitely had more punch. I don't usually dabble in +P so it could just be my inexperience. I haven't been futzing with .38 and .357 for all that long.

Outside of the cases were clean, inside still had quite a lot of unburnt powder. I can't seem to get that hs-6 to clean up, even with magnum primers and a tight crimp.
It's been a long time, but I didn't notice anything unusual. I don't know what they would have looked like working up to 7 grains. It would probably decrease the case life by a good bit.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:42 AM
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The old Super-Vel 125jhp was factory loaded with 7gr of non canister grade Unique. That's what Dean Grennell said.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:46 AM
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Any CUP or PSI listings for that or a similar load in an old manual?
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Old 01-13-2016, 05:10 AM
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The Speer #8 lists a max of 7.5 grs Unique with a 125 gr Jacketed SP
in their test S&W K38 and recommends that loads for J frames be
limited to a max of 7.0 grs. Pressures are not listed but they say all
loads are safe and will not damage guns but may cause increased
wear if used constantly.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:53 AM
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alwslate, in discussions on many reloading lists, here, castboolit and the high road, Speer #8 is known to have the most overpressure loads of any manual.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:23 AM
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Just because the gun didn't blow up doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think this is why they made the .357. Just sayin'
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Old 01-13-2016, 11:52 AM
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There's an interesting article on the subject in HANDLOADER #27 (1970) by Neal Knox and George Nonte. A number of then-contemporary hot and very hot .38 Special handloads and factory ammo were pressure tested.

Hottest factory load was the Norma 110 grain JHP at just over 27,000 psi with a 1,200 fps muzzle velocity from a 4" S&W Model 19. There is a handload listed using 8.1 grains Unique with the 110 grain Super Vel JHP bullet; just over 21,000 psi with a muzzle velocity a bit under 1,200 fps from the same revolver. Such loads probably wouldn't and shouldn't even bear consideration today from safety-conscious handloaders. Components likely have changed in their makeup and pressure measuring equipment surely has seen improvements in precision during the past four decades.

As a side note, anyone who has used Super Vel .38 bullets is probably aware they were undersized, presumably to lower pressure. I don't know about jacketed bullets from other makers.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:11 PM
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Personally I think the 7 gr load is too hot. Much so. Those pressures listed were done using copper crushers. There is no real way to translate CUP to actual PSI readings. Personally 6.5 would be enough. You do know Unique was cleaned up and the formula changed a bit in the last 20yrs? But then we do have more lawyers today too... so the companies can do the CYOA easier.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:12 PM
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rwsmith:

While I feel that your M10 will be OK with the stiff 7.0 grain load, I'd certainly not shoot them on any regular basis. My "pet-load" for .38 Special (as you might already know) is the HEAVY Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP-GC +P which is a powerhouse of a load exiting the 1 7/8" barrel of my Chief's at 1025 - 1040 fps. While it is what I carry and do shoot on occasion, I certainly shoot them sparingly out of the J Frame. While Tim Sundles declares in writing that this load does not exceed SAAMI specs, I have no way of verifying WHICH SAAMI specs he is referring to. As most here know it seems those spec's have indeed been lowered over the years.

You also do not mention which dash # your M10 is and if it was manufactured after 1994 or so. I believe revolvers made after the mid 90's to be a bit stronger because that is when heat treating became the norm at the Factory for most of their guns. Also please be aware that the 125 grain bullets are notorious for flame cutting the top strap just above the forcing cone. I have personally discontinued using 110 and 125 grain .38/.357 bullets because of this.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:29 PM
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I fail to understand some folks obsession with .38 Special at near magnum pressures...if you need that kind of velocity, get a magnum casing and a magnum revolver.
Randy
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:54 PM
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A lot of people like HS-6 in the J frame with the 158 lead bullet to reach +P speeds......
Just that I got to 6.8 grs with only 792 fps and the recoil was pretty harsh, so I did not go for the top loads.

4.0grs of Red Dot gets me 800 fps with a lot less recoil while
Universal gave me 824 fps that had less recoil than the HS-6 loads.

I found out that with a heavy crimp that you can use LESS powder and still GAIN in
the fps department with most powders.... with lead bullets.

The JHP bullets can only take so much of a crimp before the copper or bullet is damaged.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu1ritter View Post
alwslate, in discussions on many reloading lists, here, castboolit and the high road, Speer #8 is known to have the most overpressure loads of any manual.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if that were true because I
bought my manual back when it was current and I had a few
problems with .357 loads and SR4756 powder. But it seems
to me that the backlash against old data and supposed
changes in powder formulation along with changes in how
pressure is measured has produced a generation of
handloaders that are so fearful that I wonder how they can
handload at all. I started handloading back in 1966 and many
handloaders back then routinely loaded on the high end of
published data with no worries or consequences. The Speer
#8 manual led to some problems with handgun loads, most
of which used one powder, SR4756. There's way too much to
go into here but if anyone seriously believes that their model
marked K frame will be damaged by using 7.0 grs of Unique
with a 125 gr JHP then I'm not going to waste my time
trying to bring them to reality. Caution is a good thing in
handloading but it seems that many handloaders today have
such a level of fearfulness that to repeat, I don't see how
they are able to load at all. Some of the old data might have
been overpressure but much of the information about loading
and powders that is fearfully passed around today is more
than equally false.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:36 PM
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Nevada Ed: I Bought a new keg of HS-6 in the past year. I tried a number of cast .38 Special loads and muzzle velocities were noticeably higher than with the previous batch of this powder. Based on only two batches of powder, I can't say HS-6 is known for lot-to-lot inconsistency.

However, those who have used more of this powder than I have will be more knowledgeable on the subject.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
The Speer #8 lists a max of 7.5 grs Unique with a 125 gr Jacketed SP
in their test S&W K38 and recommends that loads for J frames be
limited to a max of 7.0 grs. Pressures are not listed but they say all
loads are safe and will not damage guns but may cause increased
wear if used constantly.
Wow. Shoot THAT out of an airweight!!!
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:55 PM
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Default It's great to hear from somebody that has been there....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if that were true because I
bought my manual back when it was current and I had a few
problems with .357 loads and SR4756 powder. But it seems
to me that the backlash against old data and supposed
changes in powder formulation along with changes in how
pressure is measured has produced a generation of
handloaders that are so fearful that I wonder how they can
handload at all. I started handloading back in 1966 and many
handloaders back then routinely loaded on the high end of
published data with no worries or consequences. The Speer
#8 manual led to some problems with handgun loads, most
of which used one powder, SR4756. There's way too much to
go into here but if anyone seriously believes that their model
marked K frame will be damaged by using 7.0 grs of Unique
with a 125 gr JHP then I'm not going to waste my time
trying to bring them to reality. Caution is a good thing in
handloading but it seems that many handloaders today have
such a level of fearfulness that to repeat, I don't see how
they are able to load at all. Some of the old data might have
been overpressure but much of the information about loading
and powders that is fearfully passed around today is more
than equally false.
I'm glad to hear from somebody that knew the business back in the days when a full load was a full load. I think it would take a lot to damage a strong modern gun, but it will start to show if you shoot these a lot in shaking a gun loose. I've always been an experimenter and it's hard to get much satisfaction out of the difference between minimum and maximum being about four tenths of a grain. I'd really like to have some basic pressure testing gear, and know what a load was producing before trying it in a gun. I wouldn't mind being an Elmer Keith and firing guns in a barn with a string on the trigger, but I don't have a supply of guns to blow up.

PS: I'm as interested in the low end as well as the high. I used to go substantially lower than the minimums and never came close to sticking a bullet in the barrel.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:08 PM
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From Hornady 2 (1973)
38 sp, 125 gr JHP
Model 14, 6" barrel

Unique 7.3 gr 1100 fps
2400 13.1 gr 1150 fps

357 mag, Model 27 8"
Unique 9.4 gr 1400 fps
2400 14.7 gr 1300 fps

There are similarly steamy loads for 44 sp, 45 colt. Tested in a Colt SAA which is not the strongest of actions either.
There are no pressure numbers. According to how I read the manual they went by casehead expansion.

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Old 01-13-2016, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
There's an interesting article on the subject in HANDLOADER #27 (1970) by Neal Knox and George Nonte. A number of then-contemporary hot and very hot .38 Special handloads and factory ammo were pressure tested.

Hottest factory load was the Norma 110 grain JHP at just over 27,000 psi with a 1,200 fps muzzle velocity from a 4" S&W Model 19. There is a handload listed using 8.1 grains Unique with the 110 grain Super Vel JHP bullet; just over 21,000 psi with a muzzle velocity a bit under 1,200 fps from the same revolver. Such loads probably wouldn't and shouldn't even bear consideration today from safety-conscious handloaders. Components likely have changed in their makeup and pressure measuring equipment surely has seen improvements in precision during the past four decades.

As a side note, anyone who has used Super Vel .38 bullets is probably aware they were undersized, presumably to lower pressure. I don't know about jacketed bullets from other makers.
Just for the sake of clarity, those units of pressure are CUP, not PSI.

With some exceptions, handgun loads were not generally pressure tested until the 1970's.

There will be NO SIGNS OF PRESSURE in brass casings until loads surpass about 60,000 PSI. The first sign of over pressure will probably be the top strap, or other parts, hitting the ceiling.

Those with access to pressure equipment warn over and over that "pressure signs" are unreliable in straight-walled pistol cases, and it is possible to get 50%+ overpressure with NO pressure signs on the fired cartridge case or primer.

But those who just know better anyway will continue to overload their revolvers and advise and encourage others to do the same.

Carry on...

Last edited by Warren Sear; 01-13-2016 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:42 PM
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alwslate,
Indeed. I started loading in high school for my 6.5x55 Swedish in 1958. I looked at the snub nose loads in Speer #8 (I have a copy) for 38 Special and just shake my head. Not for me. My high school rifle team used to shoot on the police detective range and the instructors would let us shoot their snubs. I do remember an awful lot of recoil from some very, very stout loads. SR4756 is one of my favorites and I'm down to my last pound.
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Old 01-13-2016, 05:33 PM
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+1 on post #11

Remember though, that Norma load was back in 1972.

Speer "Atomic" 38 special data is out of a K frame !!!

A lot of people are trying to get those loads to work out of a J frame......................... Hellow !! ??

A standard 38 special is 17,000 psi or 15,000 cup.
+P J's are rated at 20,000 psi and 18,500 cup. +/-

The frame type, heat treatment to the cylinder, and improvement in the metal used over the years plays a major part on how well the revolver will hold up with full loads or higher.

100% loads are not always needed.
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Old 01-13-2016, 05:48 PM
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Regarding the 1970 data from HANDLOADER; pressure may very well be CUP. I did not re-read the article to confirm. However, data table says PSI so that's what I put in post #11.

I tried some of the 4756 / .38 Special loads in 1971 using my second and latest Speer manual at that time, #8. I had no chronograph and didn't destroy or shake loose any revolvers, but doubt I would use such loads today.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
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Just because the gun didn't blow up doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think this is why they made the .357. Just sayin'
Well, then I can try blowing up a .357.

Really, I said this was for discussion only to find the difference between what was a max load then vs. now, I'm not going to put a .38 load like that in anything but a .357 case.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post

As a side note, anyone who has used Super Vel .38 bullets is probably aware they were undersized, presumably to lower pressure. I don't know about jacketed bullets from other makers.
If tolerances are stacked in the wrong direction, like a tight barrel and a slightly oversized bullet, a little overcharge with certain powder, hot primer and batch of powder could all lead to a kaboom if you are pushing the envelope. I value me and my guns too much to go beyond foolish.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:48 PM
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Default First........Wow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker View Post
From Hornady 2 (1973)
38 sp, 125 gr JHP
Model 14, 6" barrel

Unique 7.3 gr 1100 fps
2400 13.1 gr 1150 fps

357 mag, Model 27 8"
Unique 9.4 gr 1400 fps
2400 14.7 gr 1300 fps

There are similarly steamy loads for 44 sp, 45 colt. Tested in a Colt SAA which is not the strongest of actions either.
There are no pressure numbers. According to how I read the manual they went by casehead expansion.
Wow. Hot loads.

And the casehead expansion method looks to be wa-a-a-a-y off from a reliable measurement.

And it's 6" barrel which is more realistic than the "10 inch test barrel" that's probably used to prevent trying to correlate anything.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:54 PM
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Case head expansion only occurs at rifle pressures. It has NO applications to typical revolver cartridges that do not (or should not) provide anywhere near the pressure to make case head expansion come into play.
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Old 01-13-2016, 08:18 PM
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Default A little off the subject.....

But what do you think Cor bon and the other big boys do to get such high velocities out of their loads?

I'd guess besides a batch of powder being thoroughly tested the charges are weighed much more carefully than typical ammo to get close to the max without going over. What I wonder is what is the nature of the powder they use? I've heard that they may use duplex or triplex charges that the consumer can't do but with their testing but a well equipped lab could test the end product powder to see if it's performing within their parameters.

It is verboten for the handloader today to try duplex or triplex loads but again, that is what Elmer Keith did, and also blew up a lot of guns before coming to any conclusions.

Other possibilities would be to use very consistent brass, bullets and primers. Then I would guess that they test the finished ammo more to make sure it's close to the edge without going over. I suppose all of this extra care is covered by the price tag.
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Old 01-13-2016, 08:58 PM
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I have a lovely ole 686 no dash that shoots hot loads if I want, and a .38 special for mild loads. Kinda like Dean's sausage, I can load em hot, mild or child mild.

Have a blessed day.
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Old 01-13-2016, 09:13 PM
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I find 6.0 gr Universal, under a 125 gr SJFP bullet is a nice stout +P load. Very accurate out of most of my guns.
That same manual (latest Speer) lists 6.0 gr Unique for the same bullet.
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Old 01-13-2016, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
But what do you think Cor bon and the other big boys do to get such high velocities out of their loads?

I'd guess besides a batch of powder being thoroughly tested the charges are weighed much more carefully than typical ammo to get close to the max without going over. What I wonder is what is the nature of the powder they use? I've heard that they may use duplex or triplex charges that the consumer can't do but with their testing but a well equipped lab could test the end product powder to see if it's performing within their parameters.

It is verboten for the handloader today to try duplex or triplex loads but again, that is what Elmer Keith did, and also blew up a lot of guns before coming to any conclusions.

Other possibilities would be to use very consistent brass, bullets and primers. Then I would guess that they test the finished ammo more to make sure it's close to the edge without going over. I suppose all of this extra care is covered by the price tag.
I think Cor bon and the others just "loaded 'em up" and took their chances. Even a significant overload will not usually catastrophically destroy a revolver, and since most shooters would not use that much high performance ammo anyway, that was a risk the manufactures were willing to take at that time. Continued use of over-pressure ammo will usually just lead to premature wearing and loosening of the gun. Cylinders will probably bulge before blowing up, as another example.

These days, no knowledgeable loader would ever even consider a duplex or triplex load. We know better now.

Commercial loaders have access to powders that are not available to us, but there is nothing "magical" about these powders; if there were, profit could be realized, and the manufacturers would release these powders to handloaders. The powders that commercial loaders have access to are powders that do not fall within manufacturing specifications. The commercial loaders buy these "defective" powders in bulk and have proper pressure testing equipment available, so they can develop their own load data.

I have heard (but have not verified) that Super Vel (and maybe others) used bullets that were a few thousandths of an inch smaller than standard, such as .355" bullets for 357 Magnum and 38 Special, and .427" bullets in 44 magnum, etc. This would help lower pressures

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Old 01-14-2016, 01:04 AM
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Default That's my formula.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
I have a lovely ole 686 no dash that shoots hot loads if I want, and a .38 special for mild loads. Kinda like Dean's sausage, I can load em hot, mild or child mild.

Have a blessed day.
Except I use my 686 from mild to wild and my .38 for, well, .38.

How about model 27 'N' frame?
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:18 PM
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per post 7 &24;

Hercules manual of 1987 pistol pressure data was in CUP.
Alliant manual of 1998 pistol pressure data was in PSI.
IMR manual of 2001 pistol pressures were in CUP.

Some modern manuals and Hodgdon data on the net, have BOTH, CUP & PSI data in a loading.................

which drives me CRAZY !!!!
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:58 AM
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Default I do......

Quote:
Originally Posted by growr View Post
I fail to understand some folks obsession with .38 Special at near magnum pressures...if you need that kind of velocity, get a magnum casing and a magnum revolver.
Randy
I do have a 686. but I cut my reloading teeth on the .38 special and I'm still interested in its capabilities. I'm not obsessed with near magnum pressure. I mostly shoot target wadcutters, but like I said, I do like to experiment and before a range session is over, I pop a few big ones. In fact, I've got my .357 cases loaded right around the .357 minimum load for HD purposes because I don't want to blow our ears out.

What got me interested again, was that in increasing my HD and carry 'arsenal' one of my picks for simplicity was a model 36. I had to sell my mod 10 to get the 686 (boo hoo). So I'm naturally interested in testing out what hot loads feel like in a J-frame and similar to my sub .357 rounds but within .38 specs. I'd sure like to have a model 10 again one day.

To everything there is a season
A time to shoot target
A time to shoot zombies......
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:06 AM
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Default Just the tone.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if that were true because I
bought my manual back when it was current and I had a few
problems with .357 loads and SR4756 powder. But it seems
to me that the backlash against old data and supposed
changes in powder formulation along with changes in how
pressure is measured has produced a generation of
handloaders that are so fearful that I wonder how they can
handload at all. I started handloading back in 1966 and many
handloaders back then routinely loaded on the high end of
published data with no worries or consequences. The Speer
#8 manual led to some problems with handgun loads, most
of which used one powder, SR4756. There's way too much to
go into here but if anyone seriously believes that their model
marked K frame will be damaged by using 7.0 grs of Unique
with a 125 gr JHP then I'm not going to waste my time
trying to bring them to reality. Caution is a good thing in
handloading but it seems that many handloaders today have
such a level of fearfulness that to repeat, I don't see how
they are able to load at all. Some of the old data might have
been overpressure but much of the information about loading
and powders that is fearfully passed around today is more
than equally false.
Just the tone between my Speer #9 and #14 are so different.
The earlier one pretty much say, "Do what you want to do, just be safe and don't do anything stupid." It tells you to work up your own loads if published data isn't enough. It tells you that anything below minimum charge is ok in a revolver, as long as you don't stick a jacket or slug in the barrel. Put tufts between your rifle bullets and powder." The whole book is like that. Of course it has plenty of "Don't do thises under any circumstances." but they make sense.

The later Speer doesn't say any of that, Just, "Don't Don't Don't" everywhere you go.

Things were much different when I got back into reloading and I've made some changes but the stuff I started with worked just fine and I'm going to keep using it.

The difference is that they can't count on people to have and use sense anymore.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:13 AM
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Default It was long ago.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
Nevada Ed: I Bought a new keg of HS-6 in the past year. I tried a number of cast .38 Special loads and muzzle velocities were noticeably higher than with the previous batch of this powder. Based on only two batches of powder, I can't say HS-6 is known for lot-to-lot inconsistency.

However, those who have used more of this powder than I have will be more knowledgeable on the subject.
But I seem to remember that it wasn't known for burning the same way every time it was shot. Maybe it wasn't HS6 but it was something close if it wasn't.

Nowadays they don't recommend magnum primers with, I think, 2400, which is considered to be a magnum powder. Different manuals probably have different recommendations, but apparently, it's not cast in concrete.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:18 AM
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Default So much old data....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
per post 7 &24;

Hercules manual of 1987 pistol pressure data was in CUP.
Alliant manual of 1998 pistol pressure data was in PSI.
IMR manual of 2001 pistol pressures were in CUP.

Some modern manuals and Hodgdon data on the net, have BOTH, CUP & PSI data in a loading.................

which drives me CRAZY !!!!
So much old data that is still good data are given in cup, which tells me hardly anything except which load tops out at the most pressure. I wish they started using PSI since about 1960 so things would match up. The max working pressure for firearms is given in PSI when the data is based on cup. What the hell is that? supposed to tell you? I know about how they only had the copper crusher and all that, but dang...... (rant, rave, snort)
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Old 01-15-2016, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growr View Post
I fail to understand some folks obsession with .38 Special at near magnum pressures...if you need that kind of velocity, get a magnum casing and a magnum revolver.
Randy
Growr,

Please note that this post is in no way derogatory to your statement, you have nearly sparked a few points that I feel I would like to share here - so thanks for bringing it up.

For this particular post I will limit my discussion to a 2" J Frame Chief's Special, a 2" Detective Special and alike - NOT guns with longer barrels.

It has long been my contention, my research findings and Chronograph results that I base these statements on. The Buffalo Bore #20A HEAVY 158 grain +P LSWCHP-GC consistently delivers a muzzle velocity (MV) ranging from 1025 - 1040 fps. from any of my 2" revolvers. It is consistently one of the most accurate bullets I have fired from said Revolvers. It is also a consistent performer with its 158 widemouth soft lead bullet. While recoil is stiff from a 19 ounce all steel Chief's Special it is certainly not terrible and is quite controllable. Muzzle flash is much much less than a .357 Magnum! While I will fully admit I have no way of testing the C.U.P (pressure) even if Tim Sundles loads it to the max let's call it 22,000 which to the best of my knowledge is the highest that the .38 Special +P SAAMI spec has ever been. I do believe it has now been lowered to 20,000.

NOW....... in contrast, the .357 Magnum cartridge was originally designed as a 158 grain bullet and meant for 6" barreled guns. For this purpose it is an outstanding and quite devastating round.
What has happened over time is that most people have looked at all the marvelous attributes of the .357 and liked it so much they wanted to carry that round in a convenient sized gun. The manufacturers pay attention to trends and they have come out with snub guns chambered for the .357. When you take a cartridge developed for a 6" K frame and stick it in a J frame half the size, weight and with a barrel 1/3 of the original design intent, performance, benefits and attributes greatly suffer. The huge muzzle flash and blast are clear evidence that a large portion of the powder is burning OUTSIDE the confines of the barrel and doing little to further accelerate the bullet.

I have actually Chronographed 158 grain .357 bullets shot from a 2" revolver at between 930 and 990 fps. These .357's are from the 3 major manufacturers, Remington, Winchester and Federal. NOW I have NOT used 125 grain bullets as we all know they are famous for flame cutting - which I avoid on 2" J frames as much as possible! Muzzle blast out of a 2" revolver is way way way more than the .38 Special, recoil is many times more violent - slowing down follow up shots, and because of those factors accuracy greatly suffers. NOT to mention the really really loud report of the Magnum loads! I also assume that we all at least shoot our carry loads to some extent, and shooting .357 magnums out of a J frame has to really excelorate wear and tear even though the gun is rated for them. .357 Magnum Pressure reaches up to 35,000 cup which is just under double that of even BB ,38 Specials - and that's a LOT MORE, not just a little! Performance of the Magnum load is NOT any better than from what I have seen on ballistic gelatin blocks with .38 Specials and I see no pluses and lots of minuses. AGAIN, I am talking about 158 grain Magnums (from the Big 3) out of 2" guns!

So as I have stated many times on this Forum for TWO INCH BARRELED J FRAME GUNS, the BB HEAVY #20A load actually outperforms 158 grain .357 Magnum from the Big 3 Manufacturers. The .357 pressure is NOT just a little more, but just under double! So to wrap it up here, I see NO benefit al all in shooting Magnum loads out of 2" J Frames. If guys want, they are still free to ignore all this and carry what they want, but unless someone else can prove all my testing is flawed, it just makes no sense at all to choose .357 Magnums over the BB HEAVY #20A .38 Special.

I am in NO WAY associated with Buffalo Bore or Tim Sundles. Other than to speak with him a few times, I have never met and do not know the man. Oh, just one other point, I've shot many of his products and not just in .38 Special. I have NEVER had a FTF of any kind. Just as an aside, the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain Short Barrel +P would be the next best (or even better if recoil sensitive) SD load in my personal opinion. No FTF have been encountered by me with that load either.

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Old 01-15-2016, 10:57 AM
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My oldest Speer manual is the #7 which dates back to 1966, the year
that I bought my first S&W and started handloading. What little I
can find in the manual about pressure refers to it as psi. The data for
38 spl shows a load of 6.0 grs of Unique with the Speer Half Jacket
146 gr HP tested in a pressure test gun at 15,000 psi.
Back in the late 60s to early 70s a fairly common practice was to
rechamber K frame 38spls to the .357 magnum. There has been much
discussion about the differences or lack there-of between the model
marked K frame 38 spls and the K frame .357s as to steel and heat
treatment. I am not aware of any real resolution to these questions.
One local gun smith showed me his set-up on a Bridgeport mill to
rechamber 38s to .357s. While talking to a life insurance salesman
one day the conversation topic turned to guns. He pulled out his
carry piece and showed it to me. It was a common blue steel S&W
mod 36 J frame with a 1 7/8" barrel. He had had it rechambered for
the 357 mag and it was loaded with .357 factory ammo. I asked him
if he had ever fired it and he said yes but not a lot. But it looked fine
and was apparently unharmed by the use of factory .357 ammo which
was plenty hot back then.
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Old 01-15-2016, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
So much old data that is still good data are given in cup, which tells me hardly anything except which load tops out at the most pressure. I wish they started using PSI since about 1960 so things would match up. The max working pressure for firearms is given in PSI when the data is based on cup. What the hell is that? supposed to tell you? I know about how they only had the copper crusher and all that, but dang...... (rant, rave, snort)
CUP was how pressure was measured for many, many years. The results were supposed to provide data in PSI. Back then the term PSI always meant "pressure as measured by the copper crusher method". OK, yes, there was also LUP used for shotguns, but now back on track...

In the mid 70's or so, pressure began to be measured electronically using transducers. This provided data in actual PSI units of measure.

There is nothing wrong (or necessarily inaccurate) with the copper crusher method being used to measure pressure, but the units of measure are not truly pounds per square inch. CUP can provide very accurate readings, but the values are relative, not absolute, and have no direct relation to PSI as measured electronically.

For total clarity, pressure data could be listed as to whether it was gathered by transducer method or CUP, but since most (or all) labs now are using the transducer method, it would seem redundant and unnecessary. Again, for the sake of clarity, it would help, when using the older CUP data, to specify "PSI by CUP method" or something like that. In reality, it is easier to refer to it as just CUP.

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Old 01-16-2016, 08:59 PM
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What would really be nice would be for someone to list what the CUP/PSI maximum is for the old S&W models that have a Rockwell 20 hardness in they cylinder...............
The CUP/PSI for the 70 + revolvers that received heat treatment on their parts.................
for the people that own the older weapons.......

since we all know what the +P pressures are, even though they may be watered down a little.

Why all the shudda, wudda, cudda guessing games ?

There is a lot of room between 755 and 890fps out of a 4" 38 special, to where one might be able to up the odds a little for the home owner.
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Old 01-17-2016, 09:43 AM
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I usually don't experiment , I work between start and max loads,
with good results. "You cant buy half a pair of gloves"
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Old 01-17-2016, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post

There is a lot of room between 755 and 890fps out of a 4" 38 special, to where one might be able to up the odds a little for the home owner.
That rings an important point in my head and explains "obsessive" (or what I call "practical") need for hotter .38. In general you can say the .38 special, 6" revolver or 10" test barrel can shoot something over 1100 fps with a 125 grain bullet

Well, for defensive purposes, that's fine. But add in a 158 gr. bullet out of a 2" barrel suddenly you are talking about 700-800 fps., which I wouldn't want to be hit with but most in the defensive shooting community don't consider that to be adequate.

I solve that problem simply by using a .357 gun and loading low end .357 rounds. I use this in the house.

The Cor Bon and Buffalo bore people make rounds that do better with heavy bullets out of short defensive weapons and I feel as a handloader, I should be able to do the same.

Part of the reason for this is that one of my carry weapons is a Chief's Special .38. with a 2" barrel that some feel is minimal for real world use. I'd like to see more J frames with 3" barrels.

The smallest semis that I have are 3" unvented barrels.

So, what I'm trying to do is get a good defensive load out of a 2" .38 Special. I don't think I'm alone with this. In the meantime I'll look for guns that I think are more suitable for my philosophies, like a 3" J frame with a little longer barrel, maybe in .357.

And I really can't afford to shoot much in the line of Cor Bon and Buffalo Bore all the time. If I can duplicate a load to practice with, I'll be happy to buy a box of gourmet ammo to keep in the guns.
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Old 01-17-2016, 02:33 PM
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In my 3" K frames I either use the Buffalo Bore 20A or Rem GS 125JHP . I can't imagine either would be that much fun out of a 2" J frame .
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:59 PM
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Default My point.....

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In my 3" K frames I either use the Buffalo Bore 20A or Rem GS 125JHP . I can't imagine either would be that much fun out of a 2" J frame .
Carry revolvers need a bit more barrel to keep bullets up around that magic 1000 fps point.
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Old 01-17-2016, 09:12 PM
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Default It makes you wonder.....

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Originally Posted by Peak53 View Post
Just because the gun didn't blow up doesn't mean it's a good idea. I think this is why they made the .357. Just sayin'
It makes you wonder if very hot loads can fatigue the cylinder ti where is fails in the future?
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
rwsmith:

..... You also do not mention which dash # your M10 is and if it was manufactured after 1994 or so. I believe revolvers made after the mid 90's to be a bit stronger because that is when heat treating became the norm at the Factory for most of their guns. Also please be aware that the 125 grain bullets are notorious for flame cutting the top strap just above the forcing cone. I have personally discontinued using 110 and 125 grain .38/.357 bullets because of this.
I traded it in some years back for the 686 but it was bought new in 1980. If I remember right it was a mod 10-7 with a 2" barrel, which is probably a little more forgiving since it's hard to achieve max pressure in a short barrel. I started shooting in the low mass/hypervelocity theory era and used a lot of 125 gr. bullets but most of my loads weren't all that hot, using BE or Unique. And having shot a majority of soft lead target loads, when I went to trade it in the dealer couldn't believe I had over 3000 rounds through it, because the bore looked spanking new. Wow that was a great gun. And, I only experimented with the 6.4 gr. of Unique and didn't care to go any higher.
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Old 01-24-2016, 11:13 PM
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Years ago I routinely loaded 125 gr. Remington JHP's with 6.6 grains of Unique, and I worked up a little more all with no signs of over pressure. I settled on the 6.6 grain load. I too have gone away from using the 125 grain bullets, and now mostly load 158 LSWC with 5 grains of Unique.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:26 AM
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"There is nothing wrong (or necessarily inaccurate) with the copper crusher method being used to measure pressure, but the units of measure are not truly pounds per square inch. CUP can provide very accurate readings, but the values are relative, not absolute, and have no direct relation to PSI as measured electronically."

As I have mentioned in other postings, a good analogy of CUP vs. PSI via a piezo transducer is akin to telling time by a sundial vs. using an atomic clock. That is how vast the difference is between the two methods.
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