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Old 02-02-2016, 09:20 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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Default pc'd bullets vs traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets

There's been allot of discussion in this forum about pc'd bullets & cast bullets and will this or that work. Figured I'd talk a little bit on powder coated bullets (pc'd) and their traditional sized/lubed counterparts.

Traditional cast/lubed/sized bullets:
Typically a bullet was cast, then sized, then lubed. Casting the bullet was done from an alloy, alloys are nothing more than combo's of different metals making the lead harder or softer. Lubes are combo's of different oils, greases and waxes. Sizing the bullet is extremely important, the closer the fit, the better.

Putting it all together:
When a bullet is fired it becomes under pressure. The base of the bullet compresses from that pressure. When the base compresses it squeezes lube out of the lube groove. The least amount of resistance is forward. The lube goes sideways (against the bbl) until it can't anymore so it takes the path of least resistance, which is forward. The lube will also be pressurized from hot gasses coming by the bottom drive band. The pushing/pressurizing of this lube forward makes the lube act like a gasket. Not only is the lube protecting the bbl it is sealing off gasses from getting by any bbl imperfections that the front drive bands hit as the lube is forced forward.

Not my picture, it was sent to me from another website were I was having a discussion about bullet compression. He was testing round grease groove vs square in a 44mag.


If you look closely at the bottom groove/lube groove on those bullets you'll see different amounts of compression (bigger/smaller). What you want to see in a bullet is what you see with the bullet that is in the far right of the picture/ last bullet on the right. It shows mild base compression, good even crisp rifling marks the whole length of the bullet (no skidding). And the front drive bands look complete with crisp edges.

Sizing the bullet;
The closer the size of the bullet to the cylinders/bbl. The less the bullet has to seal as the base is compressed.

Alloy:
There's been formula's out there for this hardness/that hardness, yada/yada/yada. Most of them are telling you the minimum hardness for the pressure being used.

Lube:
I use 2 different lubes. The 1st lube is a soft lube that has more oil than wax. The 2nd lube has more wax than grease. 95%+ of the time I use the soft lube because the lube has to be able to flow out and forward for the bullet to function properly. Too hard of a lube and it will never flow/seal act like a gasket and bad things happen.

walking the line:
It's a juggling act between size/alloy/lube and if any one of them are wrong, nothing works and things like loss of accuracy and leading come into play. Too hard of an alloy and the base will not compress enough to push the lube into the front bands. Gasses will get by everything and and loss of accuracy and flame cutting/leading will happen. (That's why too hard of a bullet leads the bbl). Get the perfect alloy and use too hard of a lube and the same thing happens, the lube can't flow. No lube, no accuracy. At the end of the day the reloader has to do a balancing act to find the right combo of alloy/lube/pressure to make an accurate load. There's always wiggle room and sizing/alloys/or lubes will aid in masking problems if any of those things aren't ideal. But even then, everything has to be pretty much spot on. That's why when casters find a good load/bullet combo they treat it like gold. That's also why allot of shooter use the same loads for specific bullets. They work!!!

Pc'd bullets:
They use the same size/alloy/lube rules that traditional bullets are bound by. The pc'd bullets simply have the ability to use those same rules differently.

Alloy:
Instead of matching the alloy to the pressure, pc'd bullets match the alloy to the bullet design. The pc'd bullets can also be allot softer which aids in bumping/sealing the bbl.

Lube:
Pc'd bullets take any and all lube issues out of the picture. It's already everywhere it needs to be. No more too hard/too soft, not enough, the right pressure to seal everything.

Size:
Because pc'd bullets can be used with such a soft alloy, the correct sizing of the bullet is not a critical. The is no bullet base to compress to push the lube to form the correct seal/gasket. Seeing's how the lube is already in the correct places the soft alloy of the pc'd bullet can easily be bumped up by the pressure of the load to seal the bbl, hence accuracy.

How do we prove such things????

By using a chronograph. Take the same bullet, same size, same firearm, same load and shoot pc'd bullets vs traditional cast bullets. You'll find that the pc'd bullet will have more velocity for the same load. It isn't that the pc coating is slicker/oiler than the traditional lubes. It's that the bullet is sealing the bbl better/more efficient. Used to do the same thing with traditional cast/lubed bullets. I'd try 2 or 3 different alloys for the same sized/lubed bullet to see which 1 had the highest velocity. Once that was found I knew the correct alloy/pressure combo.

It isn't rocket science but allot of things have to happen to get a good load with traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets. When pc'ing 1st came out and people were perfecting how to pc their own bullets I was all ears. After some initial testing with high pressure rounds (308) I decided to give pc'd bullets a real test to see what they could really do.

I decided on using a 44mag for testing pc'd bullets. The 44's tend to be a bit pickier than the 38spl/357's (which I own 9 of and have had excellent result with for decades). Just wanted some plinking loads that woulkd do around 1 1/2" @ 25yds. Now I bought a beater 629 back in 2006/2008? and used molds/bullets that I've had from 30+years to a couple of years. I also used the same powders that I've tested loads/bullet combo's with in this pistol for several years. At the end of the day I found 2 loads with traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets with 5 different bullets and 6 powders that would meet the 1 1/2" @ 25yds. I redid the same testing with pc's bullets and ended up with 13 loads that would do the same 1 1/2" @ 25yds.



13 vs 2:
Same firearm, same molds that cast the bullets, same sizers, same reloading dies, same shooter, etc. The only difference is the bullet!!!

Pc'd bullets take any lube issues out of the equation. That's the difference between an accurate load and one that isn't. The only thing you're matching with pc'd bullets is the pressure of the load to the design of the bullet. Undersized bullet ='s more pressure to obturate the bullet to the bore.

Can you have more than 1 load for the same pc'd bullet???? Absolutely!!! Simply change powders, different push/amount of pressure applied between burn rates. It's nothing to get 6 or 7 different loads using the same pc'd bullet and different powders. The only real thing I've noticed with pc'd bullets is the thickness of the bullets bottom drive band plays a huge roll in how hard you can drive the bullet. Some bullet designs like these 429303's have a gc and 2 extremely small drive bands. You don't need a gc on this bullet with powder puff loads. But when you heat them up to full house loads the small bands will fail.



Well, that's my take on why pc'd bullets perform better than traditional cast/lubed bullets.
In a nut shell:
Traditional bullets have to have the right combo of alloy/pressure to have the correct lube flow to not only lube the bbl, but form a gasket to seal gasses/flame cutting of the bullet. Raise or lower the pressure and you have to start all over again.
Pc'd bullet's only have to rely on amount of pressure of the load to expand/seal the bbl for the size/design of the bullet. After the minimum pressure is reached to seal the bbl pressures can be increased until the design of the bullet fails.

Can you have more than 1 load for the same bullet with traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets??? Absolutely!!! But typically they are either close in their pressure range or the short start pressure of the load is soft enough to not distort the base of the bullet.

I'd like to see anyone using traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets use the same alloy/lube in several different calibers and run that their bullets at anything from 700fps (8,000psi) to 2400fps (50,000psi). Let alone maintain high accuracy levels.

Anyway, that's my take on pc'd bullets. Their just more forgiving.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:35 PM
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I will try the coated bullet first in my 9mm pistol but the bullets
will all have a different Dia. from .356, 357 and .358 for my first tests.

They will also have "No groves" in the side wall (cylinder) of the bullet.

I might go into the 38 special if things work out.
For the 38 I would prefer a soft bullet for my target work and
maybe something in the 12 range for the medium and full loads to follow.

Later.
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Old 02-02-2016, 04:29 PM
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Default Like I've said before.....

Coated bullets are the cat's meow. I only buy coated bullets now, except for some jacketed. As long as it's put on right, it performs well and is very clean. No more lube in groove for me. Shooting pistols I don't have to worry where the 'threshold' is for the limit of the lube. I never get to that point.
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Old 02-02-2016, 05:16 PM
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Reloading for the 9mm gave me a run for my money, Darn small case combined with a high pressure round. Was looking for a target load for my nm springfield ro in 9mm. Was testing powders that I have a bunch of laying around. Finely got a keeper, the mihec 125gr hp powder coated sized to .358 being pushed by 5.0gr of winchester wst.

A 10-shot group @ 50ft.



Had a bunch of 1 1/2" to 2" groups with bullseye, american select, clays. Just couldn't get a handle on this bullet/cartridge combo with light target loads and still have the 1911 function.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:50 PM
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So what square were you shooting at...??

Sorry, I could not resist.
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:42 PM
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But now you have to compare those two to Hi Tech Polymer coated,but I think there are probably a bunch of past threads on that
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:39 AM
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If PC and Hy-tec are here to stay do you suppose lube grooves will slowly disappear? I wonder if a more consistent bearing surface in lead bullets would be more beneficial or less? I'm curious about that.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ageingstudent View Post
I wonder if a more consistent bearing surface in lead bullets would be more beneficial or less? I'm curious about that.
I too have wondered on that score. Seems reasonable to me. And many of the commercial waxed (super)lubed swaged bullets don't seem to have cast type lube grooves. I had a whole bunch of Remingtons that I got at an auction for 2 bucks a box and they were some of the most accurate I ever loaded. And..voila..no leading either. I have powder coat paint baking oven etc so I am going to have to try PCing.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ageingstudent View Post
If PC and Hy-tec are here to stay do you suppose lube grooves will slowly disappear?
No, they disappeared pretty quick. Love these things. I also use their groove-less .358"/125 RN.

.45 (.451)


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Old 02-03-2016, 07:21 AM
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PC bullets may be the best thing for handguns since gunpowder was invented but I have some questions no one has ever answered about these things. The big one is does it deposit in the bore even microscopically? If it does is it removed with cleaning or is it there and continues to build up. I just keep remembering the moly bullet claims of a few years back that ruined some rifle barrels and turned out to be impossible to remove. Before I jump on the PC bandwagon I need these questions resolved by an authoritative source. I have other concerns as well but these are the two biggies.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twodog max View Post
PC bullets may be the best thing for handguns since gunpowder was invented but I have some questions no one has ever answered about these things. The big one is does it deposit in the bore even microscopically? If it does is it removed with cleaning or is it there and continues to build up. I just keep remembering the moly bullet claims of a few years back that ruined some rifle barrels and turned out to be impossible to remove. Before I jump on the PC bandwagon I need these questions resolved by an authoritative source. I have other concerns as well but these are the two biggies.
Actually, shotgunners have already did the legwork along with gunpowder mfg's.

There's 2 types of coating.
polyurethane
polyester

The polyurethane is a paint product and involves chemicals to use.
The polyester is a powder product that uses static (#5 container air soft bb's). to use.

Shotgun shell cases are made out of a polyurethane.
Shotgun wads have been made out of polyurethane, nylon, polyester.
Polyester adipate (adipate ='s alkyd resin) has been used to coat gunpowders for a long time. It slows the burn rate of the powder.

So anyway, everyone's been shooting these types of plastics for decades with no ill affect on anything.

I use the polyester coating and love how easy it is to clean the firearms after a range session. What a revolver looks like after a typical 200round range session. Hoppe's #9 on a rag and everything wipes right off. Use the same #9 on a patch and after 2 or 3 passes down the bore, it's clean. No more brushing, etc, just 1 wet patch and 1 dry patch. The cylinder needs a standard cleaning due to the carbon build-up from the burnt powder. But the cylinders are no where near as bad as they would be with the burnt carbon/lube from traditional cast/lubed bullets.



Try doing that with traditional cast/lubed bullets.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:20 AM
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I don't disagree with the fact traditional lubed bullets are a mess both lubing and shooting them. Do you know of anyone who has actually looked at the bores using scientific methods to determine if residue is depositing in the bores? I don't question what you are saying but before I put these bullets through some of my older S&W revolvers and even the newer ones I just want to know for sure that 5 years from now I won't be questioning why I did it. I hope you understand my questioning position. I am not attacking these bullets because I really want to use them but I just don't want to abandon a proven process and later have regrettable problems.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twodog max View Post
I don't disagree with the fact traditional lubed bullets are a mess both lubing and shooting them. Do you know of anyone who has actually looked at the bores using scientific methods to determine if residue is depositing in the bores? I don't question what you are saying but before I put these bullets through some of my older S&W revolvers and even the newer ones I just want to know for sure that 5 years from now I won't be questioning why I did it. I hope you understand my questioning position. I am not attacking these bullets because I really want to use them but I just don't want to abandon a proven process and later have regrettable problems.
IMO, anything you put on the bullet surface, whether it's jacketed cupro-nickel, lead/lube, or some type of polymer coating, some of it will get deposited in the bore. Yes, shotgun shooters know this and are still questioning what to use, and how to use it, to remove the fouling from their guns. Plastic wad debris DOES get built up in the throats and especially the chokes on shotguns, and has to be removed from time to time. With rifling being much sharper than just a gentle choke, I can only imagine the problem to be much worse. Be nice to see more studies, me thinks.

I have to wonder why, if coated is the way of the future, that the major ammunitions makers haven't already picked up on this. Coated bullets must be easier and less expensive to produce than jacketed. We know the down-side of lead/lubed bullets. One wonders?
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
No, they disappeared pretty quick. Love these things. I also use their groove-less .358"/125 RN.

.45 (.451)

So far with the ones I've tried I've had good results also. I just can't get past the color of some. That blue looks OK but some of the psychedelic ones rub me the wrong way. I suppose the kids like them and if it grows the sport it's good I guess. Now my gals will be begging me for hot pink for their ammo:P.
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Old 02-03-2016, 01:56 PM
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per post 7;

I hope they keep a cannelure on the 38 and 357 to set the correct bullet OAL.

It also helps with how the powder burns on full loads.

None on the auto pistol bullets would be fine, with me, though.
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:40 PM
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I use this one for my light 357 loads.

Seating deep and crimping on the nose helps with powder burn in light loads, but Nevada Ed is right, they need to keep a crimp groove on the revolver bullets meant for full power loads, that's why I don't use this one.


I'm looking for a good coated SWC with a crimp groove, square base, crimson colored please (I think crimson is a bad a$$ color for bullets).
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:46 PM
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Hey Acme, nice looking bullet, but do you think we can get rid of the bevel base? They don't help.
(I'm getting pretty fussy in my old age)


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Old 02-03-2016, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ageingstudent View Post
If PC and Hy-tec are here to stay do you suppose lube grooves will slowly disappear? I wonder if a more consistent bearing surface in lead bullets would be more beneficial or less? I'm curious about that.
Federal is coming out with their own poly coated bullets/ammo this year. No grooves or grooves, doesn't affect accuracy but does affect pressures. Grooves mean stability with less pressure than smooth sided bullets.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twodog max View Post
PC bullets may be the best thing for handguns since gunpowder was invented but I have some questions no one has ever answered about these things. The big one is does it deposit in the bore even microscopically? If it does is it removed with cleaning or is it there and continues to build up. I just keep remembering the moly bullet claims of a few years back that ruined some rifle barrels and turned out to be impossible to remove. Before I jump on the PC bandwagon I need these questions resolved by an authoritative source. I have other concerns as well but these are the two biggies.
Everything you send down the bore leaves some fouling; copper, lead or plastics. So it's just a matter of how hard is it to clean. So far, poly coating or epoxy coatings seem to clean up easier than copper or lead fouling.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:46 PM
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Hey Acme, nice looking bullet, but do you think we can get rid of the bevel base? They don't help.
(I'm getting pretty fussy in my old age)

Yep bevel base bullets are totally unnecessary IMO and lead to another set of problems in traditional lubed bullets. I avoid them like an awful disease.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:56 PM
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The Hi Tec Supercoat Polymer coated bullets tech came from Australia where it has been used for a long time,

I am converting over to them. I have not tried any powder coated ones nor the difference as far as barrel wear. I do know that clean up is much easier and there is little to no smoke due to lack of conventional lube,

Bayou Bullets (Donnie Miculek) has good ones as does Missouri Bullets.

About Our Coatings - Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings

You casters can buy the chemicals and coat your own or the powder coating.

I would like to see some data comparing the two.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:59 PM
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springer99 View Post
Yes, shotgun shooters know this and are still questioning what to use, and how to use it, to remove the fouling from their guns. Plastic wad debris DOES get built up in the throats and especially the chokes on shotguns, and has to be removed from time to time.
Interesting to say the least!!!

Back in the day I shot a little shotgun, nothing fancy just 8 to 12 boxes of ammo a week for 10 years straight. Bought an 1st year (1952) 870 off of a guy at a gunshow. He was old and sitting there with a couple of things on the table. I asked if I could sit down and started talking to him. He was done shooting and was selling everything off. I bought almost everything he had including that 1952 remington 870. He bought it new and it was setup for skeet, he used it until I bought it in 1990. I used it until the receiver finely wore out in 2000 and sold that skeet bbl to a friend. He was teaching his daughter how to use a shotgun. Her son is now using that same bbl to this day.

A fellow named Bill Barbour was a 2 time national champion and I'm not sure how many state titles he had. He used 2 1100's and the same 1100/bbl for 20+ years. Used to walk the garand with him when it was held in vandalia, everyone knew him, Hi bill, what's going on bill, glad to see you back bill, etc. While he has there he'd go to vender's row and get parts (that's why 2 1100's/spare when something broke in the receiver) from the remington rep. The 1 year he saw bill coming and already cryings about it. A come on bill, that's old iron your using. Bill got his parts for free. He never did wear that bbl out.

Jim hawk was a state champion in the 80's with countless 1000's of rounds in his shotguns. He still has them and uses them to this day.

Hawk taught a fellow shooter skeet and he,Rich olah, became a state champion in the 90's and he still uses the same shotgun to this day.

These guys were using bore snakes or the rods with the cleaning sleeves that were washable after every session. I just used a bore snake with clp on it for 6 or 7 years and never had any build-up in the bbl/choke. The gritty trigger and action are another story.

In my little neck of the woods the receivers go before the bbl's do on our shotguns. The triggers and timing goes out on our pistols before the bbl does. And we work extremely hard burning out bbl's on our rifles, so far I've worn out bbl's on 2 03-a3's, a 300mag & sks and a 223ar. But that was with jacketed bullets.

The aussie's have been shooting coated bullets for over a decade now and haven't reported any bbl wear issues, loss of accuracy or anything else.

If you are having problems with plastic in your shotguns or are unsure of what it might do to your bbl's, then by all means, don't use any coated bullets.

Myself, I enjoy the heck out of them and the accuracy they bring to the table. And if the coated bullets wear a bbl out in 50,000 rounds compared to 100,000+ for traditional lead. Big deal!!!! I wore another one out and had a smile on my face the whole time.

As far as mfg's selling ammo with coated bullets, time will tell. Bullet coating is really still in it's infancy in this country. Only 4 years ago (2012) there was a big push to figure out the easiest/cheapest way for the home caster to coat their own cast bullets. What you'r seeing today on this website and in this thread is the fruits of their labors. It started with people communicating with the aussie's on how/what they were doing. And now 4 years later, their efforts have spread and turned into what you're seeing today. I've only been coating bullets for 3 years now and have run a little over #500 of cast/coated bullets thru different firearms. The firearm/bbl that has seen the most coated bullets (10,000+) is a custom 1 in 10 twist 6" 357 bbl. So far the accuracy is still there but then again it only gets a diet of 158gr bullets doing 1350fps+ with 33,000+psi loads.

Anyway, coating bullets allows casters to re-purpose molds like the protxbore molds that used to use the zinc washers.



On the left are 44cal's and 35 cal's on the right. They can be used as swc's or be turned around and be loaded as button nosed wc's.

A close-up of the protxbore bullet. Left, a 110gr button nosed wc (h&g #41) next to the protxbore 35cal (9mm/38spl/357) on the right.



When cast, where the zinc washer used to go forms a button nosed drive band when loaded as a swc. And can be crimped in the groove under that band making it a bullet nosed wc that has a boattail.
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:51 PM
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I am a fan of the Coated bullets, but can not compared them to shotgun barrels.

They do not have lands and grooves. Smooth bores are easy to clean. Acetone, say in home made Eds Red cleans out any plastic residue. Probably would work on any trace of coatings.

Last trip to the range I shoot several hundred coated 9mms. Cleanup was maybe 2 patches with CLP and a brush. Normally 6 or more.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:19 PM
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Great post Forrest, I've been thinking about trying out pc, but haven't yet. I was taught reloading by my 80 year old grandpa, so I'm sure a lot of my practices are out of date. My bullets still shoot though. This post convinced me to give it a try. Thanks.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:27 PM
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Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:35 PM
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Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
Thais not entirely true, at least for the Hi Tech Polymer coated bullets. The reason they have been used in Australia for so long is that they contain much of the lead. Some lead free ranges allow them as long as lead free primers are used.

What you say about proper size and alloy is correct but there still exists a lot of problems with leading, not everyone has the advantage of picking the correctly sized bullets with the right alloy for all velocities and calibers.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:23 PM
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Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
I was slow to the coated bullet process, but it is not a solution looking for a problem. You get essentiallly a more user friendly plated bullet that is cheaper & can easily be done at home. Less smoke, no leading, cleaner guns,kinda hard not to like the process. I'm not selling my Star sizer, but i am using it a lot less.
Powder coated or HT, pretty much the same but the pc will take higher vel & still give good accuracy.diff invel betweenthe two, within the std dev.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:45 PM
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Thais not entirely true, at least for the Hi Tech Polymer coated bullets. The reason they have been used in Australia for so long is that they contain much of the lead. Some lead free ranges allow them as long as lead free primers are used.

What you say about proper size and alloy is correct but there still exists a lot of problems with leading, not everyone has the advantage of picking the correctly sized bullets with the right alloy for all velocities and calibers.
I will respectfully request to disagree... it just ain't all that hard to fit the projectile to the bore, and that is the overwhelming majority of the issue.

Alloy, sizing, and lube, in that order. Simple as that. Most commercial casters sell something that is too hard, sized too small, and has a lube much too hard for the average application. The results are disastrous, and I know, because I bought long before I ever cast my own.

If you know what to look for, all these issues are very easily answered, even if you buy your projectiles.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:06 AM
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I just started running Bayous and can't get over how clean they shoot.

Just wish I could get better accuracy out of their 158 grain round nose. My home-cast WCs & SWCs shoot rings around them.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:11 AM
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Interesting to say the least!!!

Back in the day I shot a little shotgun, nothing fancy just 8 to 12 boxes of ammo a week for 10 years straight. Bought an 1st year (1952) 870 off of a guy at a gunshow. He was old and sitting there with a couple of things on the table. I asked if I could sit down and started talking to him. He was done shooting and was selling everything off. I bought almost everything he had including that 1952 remington 870. He bought it new and it was setup for skeet, he used it until I bought it in 1990. I used it until the receiver finely wore out in 2000 and sold that skeet bbl to a friend. He was teaching his daughter how to use a shotgun. Her son is now using that same bbl to this day.

A fellow named Bill Barbour was a 2 time national champion and I'm not sure how many state titles he had. He used 2 1100's and the same 1100/bbl for 20+ years. Used to walk the garand with him when it was held in vandalia, everyone knew him, Hi bill, what's going on bill, glad to see you back bill, etc. While he has there he'd go to vender's row and get parts (that's why 2 1100's/spare when something broke in the receiver) from the remington rep. The 1 year he saw bill coming and already cryings about it. A come on bill, that's old iron your using. Bill got his parts for free. He never did wear that bbl out.

Jim hawk was a state champion in the 80's with countless 1000's of rounds in his shotguns. He still has them and uses them to this day.

Hawk taught a fellow shooter skeet and he,Rich olah, became a state champion in the 90's and he still uses the same shotgun to this day.

These guys were using bore snakes or the rods with the cleaning sleeves that were washable after every session. I just used a bore snake with clp on it for 6 or 7 years and never had any build-up in the bbl/choke. The gritty trigger and action are another story.

In my little neck of the woods the receivers go before the bbl's do on our shotguns. The triggers and timing goes out on our pistols before the bbl does. And we work extremely hard burning out bbl's on our rifles, so far I've worn out bbl's on 2 03-a3's, a 300mag & sks and a 223ar. But that was with jacketed bullets.

The aussie's have been shooting coated bullets for over a decade now and haven't reported any bbl wear issues, loss of accuracy or anything else.

If you are having problems with plastic in your shotguns or are unsure of what it might do to your bbl's, then by all means, don't use any coated bullets.

Myself, I enjoy the heck out of them and the accuracy they bring to the table. And if the coated bullets wear a bbl out in 50,000 rounds compared to 100,000+ for traditional lead. Big deal!!!! I wore another one out and had a smile on my face the whole time.

As far as mfg's selling ammo with coated bullets, time will tell. Bullet coating is really still in it's infancy in this country. Only 4 years ago (2012) there was a big push to figure out the easiest/cheapest way for the home caster to coat their own cast bullets. What you'r seeing today on this website and in this thread is the fruits of their labors. It started with people communicating with the aussie's on how/what they were doing. And now 4 years later, their efforts have spread and turned into what you're seeing today. I've only been coating bullets for 3 years now and have run a little over #500 of cast/coated bullets thru different firearms. The firearm/bbl that has seen the most coated bullets (10,000+) is a custom 1 in 10 twist 6" 357 bbl. So far the accuracy is still there but then again it only gets a diet of 158gr bullets doing 1350fps+ with 33,000+psi loads.

Anyway, coating bullets allows casters to re-purpose molds like the protxbore molds that used to use the zinc washers.



On the left are 44cal's and 35 cal's on the right. They can be used as swc's or be turned around and be loaded as button nosed wc's.

A close-up of the protxbore bullet. Left, a 110gr button nosed wc (h&g #41) next to the protxbore 35cal (9mm/38spl/357) on the right.



When cast, where the zinc washer used to go forms a button nosed drive band when loaded as a swc. And can be crimped in the groove under that band making it a bullet nosed wc that has a boattail.
I've only been shooting trap since the 1980's, but changes in forcing cones, ported barrels and removable chokes have changed alot of things in the shotgun game since the 1950's, as well as changes to the materials used in wads today. i honestly don't know, chemically, how that relates to coated bullets, but do know that plastic buildup can be an issue for one who shoots alot. The typical pistol and rifle rounds also operate at much higher pressures than normal shotgun trap loads. One would think that also may change things.

I'm interested in following this new technology, primarily since I really was disappointed wtih the plated bullets I've tried(in terms of accuracy). I persoally find that cast, lubed bullets work fine for my purposes, but would like something with less smoke on occasion(indoor).

How come this technology came from the aussies? I didn't think they were allowed real guns anymore.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:39 AM
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Great post Forrest, I've been thinking about trying out pc, but haven't yet. I was taught reloading by my 80 year old grandpa, so I'm sure a lot of my practices are out of date. My bullets still shoot though. This post convinced me to give it a try. Thanks.
Nothing wrong with the way grandpa did it. I learned most of my woodworking skills from grandpa and I still have tools and guns he gave me. Died with all his fingers and I plan to do the same.

I also appreciate the post and responses. Lots of good info here.
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Old 02-04-2016, 04:36 AM
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PC bullets are pretty much the only stuff fired down here, my club banned copper washed bullets (that many of us used) b/c someone thought they over penetrated the barriers....I've shot thousands.... they can lead a barrel, only when poorly used, Winchester re-manufacture 9mm down here and had been crimping the projectiles too hard, scraping/pinching the coating, that would leave a mess behind, these projectiles were also a tad too small....I had a heap of them, and figured out if I shot 30 or 40 of them at the start of a session and then finished with my PC coated loads it would clean the lead the crape ones had left behind...the ones I shoot are red and I never find a trace in the barrel....
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Old 02-04-2016, 04:52 AM
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How come this technology came from the aussies? I didn't think they were allowed real guns anymore.
Some of us give our finger prints, participate in a certain number of competitions per year and report this to the police, are a member of a club, allow the police to enter our homes without a warrant to inspect our storage, fill out forms to justify each revolver/pistol, own a safe for storage that are inspected ...I reckon we pioneered it because jacket ammo was all imported and too expensive...and in a small market like this people invent stuff to "make do" because buying stuff from o/s was really expensive when our dollar was trash
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:44 AM
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Some of us give our finger prints, participate in a certain number of competitions per year and report this to the police, are a member of a club, allow the police to enter our homes without a warrant to inspect our storage, fill out forms to justify each revolver/pistol, own a safe for storage that are inspected ...I reckon we pioneered it because jacket ammo was all imported and too expensive...and in a small market like this people invent stuff to "make do" because buying stuff from o/s was really expensive when our dollar was trash
Good lord, man. I really feel your pain.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:52 AM
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Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
Good answer.
You're absolutely correct and more importantly, you're happy with what you've found, made created!!!!

Perhaps you could give me a little advice on what alloy, lube and size bullet I should try with a couple of my non-existent problems.

1. I like to shoot firearms with muzzle breaks and ports. For some odd reason lead bullets clog those holes and pc'd bullets do not. Any idea what lead alloy or size bullet I should use/try for these 357's that have muzzle breaks installed on them.


2. I like to shoot:
Home swaged lead/jacketed bullets what alloy for the cores
8,000psi/14,000psi hollow base bullets
13,000/21,000psi spl loads
25,000psi/30,000psi loads
35,000+psi loads
Any recommendations on the different alloys I should use for those different pressure ranges???? Along with, "Can I use the same lube for everything from light hb pistol loads to high pressure/speed rifle loads"???

3. I have 3 different 9mm's that the bbl's slug 3 different sizes along with 10 different 38spl/357 bbl's that are different. I like to shoot anything from 8,000psi target loads in them to 30,000+psi mag/9mm loads along with the bbl's slugged out anywhere from .355 to .358. Any idea how many different alloys and how many different bullet sizes I should use to get the right alloy/fit combo for all of these different firearms and loads. Can I use the same lube with all those different loads???

4. I like to shoot 44cal's been a huge fan of them for decades. They slug out anywhere from .429 to .432 and a couple of them are 44psl's and the rest are 44mags. I keep the special loads around 9,000psi to 13,000psi and the 44mag loads around 16,000psi to 35,000+psi using anything from 5 different hbwc's/wc's to 310gr rf's. Any idea how many different alloys, lubes and sizes I need for the 44cal's???

I'll give those non-existent problems I've encountered using traditional size/alloy/lube a try.

1. None/zero/nada, there's no lead alloy/size that will work. Lead bullets clog ports and muzzle breaks along with spraying fine lead on sights/etc. You have to use either jacketed or coated bullets. And yes coated bullets are the cat's meow in cans.

I'll give it the simple version for the rest of the answers with pc'd bullets:
2. 1 alloy for everything including questions 3/4
3. 1 size
4. 1 size

Opps, forgot the lube/lubes for all those different applications?
1

So lets see, I use 1 alloy for everything (9/10bhn range scrap,free), 1 lube for everything and 1 size for each caliber. And they can be shot in firearms with ports, muzzle breaks and cans.

What did you come up with using your traditional correct alloy, correct lube, correct size method????

If I was a gambling man I'd bet you didn't come up with 1 alloy/lube/size for each caliber.

And yes I know a little about screw in chokes, own/use several. Hate to tell you how many different screw in chokes I've honed/polished to get a specific load on center with an excellent pattern/even shot density for a specif yardage, hence 21yds for skeet and 16yd and specif yardages for handi-cap in trap.

Enjoy
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:18 AM
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Except for dealing with messy lubes and the grimy cleanup I have no real problem with traditional cast and lubed bullets. They work, and give me most satisfactory accuracy and when loaded right very little or no leading. I will try the high tech coatings if and when it is demonstrated that these coating leave no permanent bore deposits, and cost is more in line with plain lubed bullets. I really do not want to mess with Acetone and other chemicals when I can use what I have and clean up with good old Hoppe's.
The high tech idea is intriguing but I have the total traditional casting/lubing setup and long since have it paid for. The new process is going to have to be markedly better for me to make the switch in total. I will almost certainly try them once the bore deposit issue is answered to my satisfaction but at this late date in my shooting career doubt I will be completely switching over.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:42 PM
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Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
Technology marches on.
Remember TV's that you had to get out of your chair to turn a dial and change 1 to 12 channels. How about Corded phones? We seemed to talk to folks OK.
Computers what's that?, Digital photos? LP albums and record players?

For a non existent problem they sell a hell of lot of them
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:21 PM
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If PC and Hy-tec are here to stay do you suppose lube grooves will slowly disappear? I wonder if a more consistent bearing surface in lead bullets would be more beneficial or less? I'm curious about that.
played with it ...
there are some upsides to it.
Without the groove setting a minimum length, it is now possible to cast lighter, higher velocity bullets.
They do seem more accurate, and behave a bit more like jacketed.
And while more of a rifle advantage, the BC is higher without the grooves acting as air brakes.
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:07 PM
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Back when my eyes were good, I took my own hard cast 410459s lubed with Lyman #2, sized to .410" and shot one ragged hole off a rest @ 25 yards for as long as I wanted to stack them. If it needs to be more accurate than that I don't need it.

I will say it again: cast them out of the right alloy, size them correctly, and use the right lube, and you are good to go. Plastic coatings are the answer to a non-existent problem.
Way back in the history of coatings on this forum, I beat the ever lovin poo out of some cast 30-06 loads, taking them as far as I could, then setting some practical limitations for a coated plain base rifle load.

after developing a practical 2700FPS load, and facing resistance similar to what you offer from another of our board of experts, I told him that you cannot remain a true expert if you do not remain current in your field.

He see's today, that I fed him no bull, and ... he's current in his knowledge.
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:20 PM
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Except for dealing with messy lubes and the grimy cleanup I have no real problem with traditional cast and lubed bullets. They work, and give me most satisfactory accuracy and when loaded right very little or no leading. I will try the high tech coatings if and when it is demonstrated that these coating leave no permanent bore deposits, and cost is more in line with plain lubed bullets. I really do not want to mess with Acetone and other chemicals when I can use what I have and clean up with good old Hoppe's.
The high tech idea is intriguing but I have the total traditional casting/lubing setup and long since have it paid for. The new process is going to have to be markedly better for me to make the switch in total. I will almost certainly try them once the bore deposit issue is answered to my satisfaction but at this late date in my shooting career doubt I will be completely switching over.
The only bore deposits I have seen are in the form of a black streak.
This cleans right out with any gun cleaning product I've used on it.
The gunpowder makes more mess.
What I believe you are looking for is something you can point a finger at and say "HA!!! I knew it"
your in for a very long wait if you want a sample to study. We haven't figured out how to produce a permanent bore deposit with it.
Best we can give you is the same carbon your propellant makes anyhow
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:29 PM
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Technology marches on.
Remember TV's that you had to get out of your chair to turn a dial and change 1 to 12 channels. How about Corded phones? We seemed to talk to folks OK.
Computers what's that?, Digital photos? LP albums and record players?

For a non existent problem they sell a hell of lot of them

Ya know what I like most about eight tracks ..... they don't make em anymore.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:44 PM
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Ya know what I like most about eight tracks ..... they don't make em anymore.

Remember throwing them out the window after it was eaten up and streams of tape flying in the air?? It was a Parade!

I could splice CDs and reel to reel, but 8 tracks suxed.

Still have most of my CDs and Albums,
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:49 PM
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Very interesting read . If one can use same coating & alloy for every application , that is indeed quite a breakthrough . Only thing I find hard to swallow is ability to use same sizing in guns that slug to different sizes . As a long time caster IMHO fit is king . It's also correct with traditional cast that different alloys , sizing & lubes are needed to fit the application . What I really wonder about is the accuracy of PC @ 50yds & beyond for handguns . Some of you state you PC rifle bullets & I assume you find good accuracy with them . As of yet I've not seen coated used in Bullseye , PPC or cast benchrest competitions , perhaps this will change . Yes times change & technology improves . Old folks are somewhat resistant to change mostly because in our experience new doesn't necessarily mean better it just means different . If one over the years has developed a system that works for them this is especially true . I look forward to more results from PC bullets & would definately be interested in seeing 50yd + targets . Look forward to future posts from you gentlemen .
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Old 02-04-2016, 04:33 PM
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Very interesting read . If one can use same coating & alloy for every application , that is indeed quite a breakthrough . Only thing I find hard to swallow is ability to use same sizing in guns that slug to different sizes . As a long time caster IMHO fit is king . It's also correct with traditional cast that different alloys , sizing & lubes are needed to fit the application . What I really wonder about is the accuracy of PC @ 50yds & beyond for handguns . Some of you state you PC rifle bullets & I assume you find good accuracy with them . As of yet I've not seen coated used in Bullseye , PPC or cast benchrest competitions , perhaps this will change . Yes times change & technology improves . Old folks are somewhat resistant to change mostly because in our experience new doesn't necessarily mean better it just means different . If one over the years has developed a system that works for them this is especially true . I look forward to more results from PC bullets & would definately be interested in seeing 50yd + targets . Look forward to future posts from you gentlemen .
I wouldn't say one alloy for every application.
Coating gives you a LOT of latitude but you'll still need something harder for high intensity rifle loading, and you still want softer for stuff like hollow points.
Still a factor, but its FR less critical.

Sizing ...
in either case, you can tighten up your grouping through sizing.
If you undersize a traditional type, you can count on lead lining a bore. Coated .. your just going to shoot a little loose.

50Y+ targets with coated ....
sure, not that anyone seems to actually care that I and others already have.
all are 2400+ FPS plain based when I was looking for practical cast field loads.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:28 PM
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Hmmm original poster stated he used same alloy , sizing & coating for all . Nice groups . 30-06 with plain base @ 2400fps ? What range ? I use the Lyman 311284 Gaschecked sized .309 210gr straight linotype 26.0grs H4895 with a tuft of dacron Rem 9 1/2 primers Lyman Moly lube . Shoot them in my 1903 Springfield . Attached was shot @ 100yds . First was 23.5grs H4895 , groups tightened up with 26.0grs as shown in 2nd attached .
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:26 PM
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The only bore deposits I have seen are in the form of a black streak.
This cleans right out with any gun cleaning product I've used on it.
The gunpowder makes more mess.
What I believe you are looking for is something you can point a finger at and say "HA!!! I knew it"
your in for a very long wait if you want a sample to study. We haven't figured out how to produce a permanent bore deposit with it.
Best we can give you is the same carbon your propellant makes anyhow
Nope not at all. You got it all wrong. Before I jump in with both feet I want to be sure. I value my firearms to much to risk permanent damage. You can do whatever you want with yours. As it stands now I have a time proven system for all its drawbacks that works very well. If I pick up the next issue of the "American Rifleman" and they have an article that says all is good I will be getting coated bullets ASAP.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:47 PM
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OK, seems like what I'm hearing is that if I switch to pc bullets -

1- bullet sizing isn't as critical to bore deposits as using traditional cast/lubed, BUT if you want the best accuracy, then having the right sizing is still important.

2 - bullet hardness is still a factor in getting the best performance from pc bullets, and may need to be changed based on the application.

3 - Based on information here, it would indicate that if proper care is taken to selecting all components, including bullet sizing and hardness, then great accuracy approaching jacketed rounds can be obtained.

4 - If the above is followed, bore cleanup is easy and there's no indication of excessive bore wear.

5 - they come in pretty colours.

This still sounds better than what the typical plated bullet can do today(in terms of accuracy at least), at least AFAIC. So it comes down to production time and cost. How does this process compare to cast lead/lubed bullets? Is this something a private caster can do or does it require special equipment to process the coating?
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:15 PM
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OK, seems like what I'm hearing is that if I switch to pc bullets -

1- bullet sizing isn't as critical to bore deposits as using traditional cast/lubed, BUT if you want the best accuracy, then having the right sizing is still important.

2 - bullet hardness is still a factor in getting the best performance from pc bullets, and may need to be changed based on the application.

3 - Based on information here, it would indicate that if proper care is taken to selecting all components, including bullet sizing and hardness, then great accuracy approaching jacketed rounds can be obtained.

4 - If the above is followed, bore cleanup is easy and there's no indication of excessive bore wear.

5 - they come in pretty colours.

This still sounds better than what the typical plated bullet can do today(in terms of accuracy at least), at least AFAIC. So it comes down to production time and cost. How does this process compare to cast lead/lubed bullets? Is this something a private caster can do or does it require special equipment to process the coating?
1 ... X ring hit
2 ... 6 ring ... hardness is only a factor on the fringes.
3 ... proper care in selection always helps any load.
4 ... another X ring hit. you need to see this to believe it
5 ... yup .. some are cooler than others but all help you keep your business and pleasure separate.

it's a godsend.
you can probably be powdercoating this weekend for less than $100. it lends itself very well to the home caster.
get the PC spray gun, some powder, and a toaster oven and your rollin.
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:33 PM
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Nope not at all. You got it all wrong. Before I jump in with both feet I want to be sure. I value my firearms to much to risk permanent damage. You can do whatever you want with yours. As it stands now I have a time proven system for all its drawbacks that works very well. If I pick up the next issue of the "American Rifleman" and they have an article that says all is good I will be getting coated bullets ASAP.
we've been at this for a good couple of years now.
There is no damage to report.
It has a better reputation than Hodgdon titegroup.

I suppose you could beat it like a rented mule in a Glock.
No one loves them and replacement barrels are drop in parts. You won't need to though.
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