Hey guys,

I use to buy the .500 defense loads from Bill at Ballistic Supply for my plinking rounds, but he quit making em. So I contacted him and indicated I did have a set of .500 Lee dies and he recommended I get some of the 350gr Berry's plated heads and load em on top of 11gr or so of Titegroup. He also recommended Trailboss as well. So I finally found a local dealer that has both Titegroup and Trailboss in stock and they're holding it for me to pick up this week.

So tonight I was browsing some of the John Ross threads relating to all things 500 for giggles and found this quote:

"I avoid LilGun and Titegroup like the plague. 4759 is my favorite .500 powder for everything except the very heaviest loads."

Now I'm a little spooked on the Titegroup after reading that. I mean JR is like the 500 guru right? Anyone know his reasoning for that, or have a similar distaste for Titegroup? My goal isn't to cook up full house hunting loads, but fun plinkers.

Thanks as always.............Chris

Seems like a lot of empty space in there with the tightgroup. Lots of potential for a double charge and probably widely varying ballistics due to powder position. I use n105 or 4227. Haven't tried trailboss yet for a plinkers load but it probably works. Ought to fill the case better for sure.

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Trucks and guns.

I have loaded a little over 600rds of 500mag with 350gr Berrys and 11gr of TiteGroup, Win large pistol primers and had excellent results. Friend of mine was over a couple nights ago and loaded his first 150 rds using same load. As with reloading anything you need to devote all of your attention to the task at hand. TiteGroup is NOT position sensitive.

Discussed in the past.

Simply, the peak pressure is reached immediately meaning you cannot use much powder and little increase in load means large increase in pressure. Numerous revolvers have been destroyed by these powders from overcharged cartridges.

Since the charge weight and volume are so small it's easy to create excessive pressure and Kaboom.

Don't care how careful you are it can happen.

I have yet to see any pressure data from a SAAMI manufacture or lab endorsing these powders for the 500 or 460. conditions

If you are looking for reduced load use powders designed to prevent over pressure conditions like TrailBoss or TinStar

Be safe and good luck
Ruggy

I like it in 380acp lol. I just put 12 gr in a 500 case just to see what it looked like. It looks so far away in there. I bet that's a nice shooting load but I like more powder in there.

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Trucks and guns.

Well answered in post #4!

Titegroup is just a super fast powder and not a good choice for any MAGNUM load even "plinking" loads what ever those are in a 500 Mag?

Use Trail Boss less chance to little of you blowing up something. Just don't compress it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

You mean LR primers don't you? Im using new Starline brass and CCI large rifle primers. Anyhoo thanks everyone. Ill just pick up the Trailboss tommorow. Any favorite heads you guys like with Trailboss? I was thinking about trying some of Matt's 335gr truncated cone as well as the Berry's.

C

Max loads with Trail Boss are pretty slow. Make sure they meet your needs. You can't overfill or crush Trail Boss.

Hodgdon's max Trail Boss load for a 370gr L-GC is 12.0/grs= 926fps @ 19K psi.

On reduced loads that you know the pressure of you can safely use large pistol primers for. The above 19K psi load is surely safe with LPPs. I've used CCI-300 on reduced loads just fine.

Hornady #8 lists a note on their 350gr XTP, & 500gr XTP, 500 S&W loads stating: "Note: This data developed for use with large pistol primers only." When I asked them if I used LRP instead did I need to adjust my loads, from what they listed, they said "No". Seems odd doesn't it?

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Yes as mentioned above this has been discussed before and
always results in posts like this. I'm not trying to single out
any one particuliar poster, just using an example. The problem
is that the opinions of the poster in response to a question
are in direct contradiction to pressure tested published data.
For just one example the Lyman 3rd edition Pistol and
Revolver handbook has an article by Brian Pearce on loading
for big bore revolvers, including the .500, with loads for
Titegroup and praise for the accuracy attained. Additionally
the load tables have loads for .44 magnum with Titegroup.
If I can read this info in the manuals why can't others?

And always results in the writings of the Reloading God Brian Pierce in some magazine.

But then on the other hand someone will mention near max fill of the case capacity.

Use Titegroup it really doesn't matter to me, if there is data for it, then it must be good, right?

If or when a double charge happens I hope everyone is OK and even the big SW 500 may survive.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I forgot to add this. Look at the Hodgdon data

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

Also a plated bullet is a poor choice for any magnum, Ya sure rely on neck tension alone as you can not put much of a crimp if any.

Hodgdon with a 359 gr XTP bullet calls for a range of 39.9 to 43.0 grans of H110. Max pressure is 50,600 psi with max load.

Now with Titegroup the range is 11.0 to 18.8 gr with a max pressure of 50,000psi.

So if the case will hold that much H110, how well will you be able to see 11 grains of TG (or any super fast powder)

Pressure is not linear so what happens with a slight overcharge or double charge of TG??

You make the call.

Sure if you are absolutely certain of your powder charge and stay away from the max load of TG then all will be well.

A plated bullet and TG in the SW 500 just seems like a poor choice.

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

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Still Running Against the Wind

I would not want to use any powder faster than CFE Pistol in this cartridge.
over the past two years. TG has been in about 80% of all the blown guns and ruptured cases I've seen in this time frame.
Yes, it probably is human error with a likely dash of product quirk, But apparently for its frequency of occurrence, its easy to do.

See what you can find for powders like ..
CFE pistol
Power Pistol
BE86
Unique
Universal
AA#7

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it just needs more voltage

As has probably been said already here, in my usage of Titegroup I found that it didn't take up much room in the case. And because of that it would be very easy to double charge a case. I never did, but I sure kept a close eye on it. I also did load 500 mag with it and like it just fine, but I also use my single stage press instead of my progressive press, just go slower and keep a better eye on things.

I also tried out trailboss with the 500. I was told that you could fill the case with it and it still wouldn't be too much. I liked the idea of not having to worry about too much pressure, but I'm not sure how much performance was lost.

In the end I used mostly Titegroup with a sprinkling of some others for the 500.

Everybody with the DOUBLE CHARGE!

It's a rare fast powder that won't fit a double load in a .500 S&W if you're putting together plinking rounds.

I would probably go with a medium powder like BE86 or Unique but that's just me.

I use TiteGroup for my 9mm and 40 S&W plated bullet loads with great success. I also use Bullseye, Red Dot and W231. I don't load even close to max loads, mine are all middle of the road range/plinking loads.

In almost 40 years of reloading, I've never had a double charge or a squib; that's not by accident! You've got to pay attention to what you're doing!! When you pull the trigger-it's too late to find out there was a double charge in that case. I don't think TG would be my first choice in a 500 Mag; but then, I would never own a 500 Mag! LOL :-)

38 Special, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp are all fine for this old dinosaur! The young guys and gals can have those big guns! :-)

Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500

I'll just leave this right here.

then Ill add this one over here
The Gun Zone -- Anaconda kB!

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it just needs more voltage

And aways followed by the postings that assume
incompetence on the part of the handloader posing the
question. Double charges are human error period and could
happen with any powder. Trail Boss is not the answer to
carelessness. Brian Pearce is without any doubt one of the
very best gunwriters of all time, we are lucky to have him.
And yes if there is viable pressure tested data available it
is ok even if it contradicts the "logical" opinions of others.

I heard the Berry's 350gr is a pretty thick plating, so how much difference when it comes to the crimp would there be with say a Barnes XPB or FMJ? I've been shooting jacketed .500 Magnum rounds for 10 years off and on with my 10" BFR, however I have only ever loaded hard cast myself, and that mostly .44 Mag and .45LC, so I'm a noob with loading either plated or jacketed slugs in .500.

Dang! Thanks for that John Ross link there! Very interesting reading. I literally just got that same gun that blew up, and certainly want to use it for a while, so maybe I'll just test my new loads with my BFR 500, on a Ransom Rest, with a string on the trigger and me standing 20 feet behind it Double charges have never been a problem for me as I use a single stage setup and am certifiable OCD......I check my charges 3 times, then flick the light switch 3 times, and make sure the oven is off and doors locked 3 times

Thing is ... I don't know exactly what is going on with TG. It's been involved with the majority of blown guns and fragments. So much so, it shouldn't be ignored.
You'll never see me recommend the stuff.
The way I see it, if your compelled to ask about it, you probably shouldn't be using it.

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it just needs more voltage

I have zero scientific data & going strictly by seat of the pants but that sure seems to be the case. Whenever I see the pictures of blown pistols it seems like Titegroup & .40SW are involved in a large percentage...

Imo, as you should be. I'm not a fan of a powder that occupies about 5% of the volume inside a case, TG. Way too much of a possability for a double, ruined gun & maybe some dr bills. Why? If i wanted light plinking loads, TB would be my choice, even Unique is a better fit imo.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Small volume of fast burning powder = kb if not being 120% vigilant. In anything bigger than a 9mm, it's diff to visually verify a double.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

You, the OP and Brian Pierce are free to use whatever powders you desire. The logical opinions of others in this thread do not seem to favor TG in big bore revolvers. It is not incompetence it is simply a chance of human error. Stuff does happen.
Good things happen slowly, bad things happen fast

John Ross does not seem to like it either.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Unique is the fastest I'll use, plus it's big flakes help take up space.

17gr./Unique, in a 500 S&W case, takes up 44%.

A bullet seated to at least .375" deep takes up an additional 29%.

This is a total of 73% used. Empty space: 27%

15gr./Titegroup takes up 30% + bullet at 29% = 59% used. Empty space: 31%

A double charge is obviously more possible with the finer grained Titegroup. Lighter charges would be worse.

A double charge with (this) Unique load is not likely, though I wouldn't trust loading it in a progressive press either.

I use a RCBS Charge Master to dispense/weigh my powder, then the bullet goes in the case & is seated before I charge another case. Nothing's infallible so always pay attention no matter what.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Well no argument here, me the OP, just bought a couple 9oz bottles of Trailboss and left the Titegroup on the shelf. Thanks for the help guys.

The fearful crowd and their trepidation about "dangerous
powders" that will "hide" in a dark corner of a case to maim
the unwary handloader ganged up on you in this one. But in
time you will come to realize that the fearful folks are unable
to realize that others are not afflicted by their limitations and
you will trust and use good published data with confidence.
Handloading is a lifelong learning process, buy several
manuals and subscribe to Handloader magazine and read.

for me its a function of logic.
Hodgdon has this stuff listed in every caliber from 25 ACP to 500 mag. Certainly, some of this data is less than ideal.
next is that it is a fairly strict powder with min to max spreads often within 1 grain.
Using Titegroup demands that you know what your doing.
This is the logic part.
If you are compelled to ask about it, it's not for you.

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it just needs more voltage

Why is there such a need to "defend" Titegroup? Out of all the powders available(or used to be available) there are far better choices, Why use it over Trail Boss, Unique HP 38 or many others, is it because you you use so little and it saves you .02 cents.?? Heck the 350 gr projectile costs more than the powder.

Magnum powders are slow and generally fill the case up near capacity. For "plinking" or mouse fart loads why not use Trail Boss? If was made for reduced Cowboy loads. There is also little to no chance of blowing up a gun with it. It produces less pressure and less velocity (at Hodgdons data for the next higher weight of 370 gr) With plated bullets it is a good choice for a novice to use.

It's pretty much picking the right tool for the job. TG is not a powder for any and all calibers just because there is data or someone wrote an article.

It has nothing to do with fear mongers, they OP is apparently new or relatively new to this reloading stuff so why not use a safer powder??

Why are there so many powders with much different burn rates? Because they work better in different calibers.

I doubt TG would score high on a poll of what is the best powder for 357, 44 or 500 Magnums.

The real published data for TG was given for the 350 gr jacketed bullet compared to Trail Boss but you chose to ignore it.

So to quote John Ross:

"In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder. If the load still kicks too much, the .500 isn’t the gun for you."

This horse is certainly been beaten, deader than dead.

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Still Running Against the Wind

From Hodgdon.

9mm
125g ex A 3.6 to 4.0
125g exB 2.8 to 3.2
125g exC 4.1 to 4.4

3 bullets of the same weight, no overlap and less than .5 grain spread.
You don't see a problem with this?

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it just needs more voltage

I deleted a number of replies to this thread. The OP made his decision four days ago, but the argument continued...

It's ironic that the Reloading forum seems to operate at much higher pressures than the rest of the board.

From the rules:

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"I also cook."