A while back, I bought 500 pieces of un-processed, 1X fired, Federal .357 brass off the forum.

During initial processing, I noted that some of the brass had a small ring around the primer pocket. Spent primers popped right out, & upon closer inspection, the pockets did not appear to be crimped. Never heard of non-military brass being crimped anyway. Sorted the brass appropriately, & figured all was well.

Up until yesterday, I have used only the "un-ringed" headstamp brass - w/ WWSP primers, & experienced no unusual issues.

I usually use WW SP primers, but recently bought QTY #200 CCI SP primers - to test function in a couple of J frames.

For what ever reason, I pulled a #100 count bag of the "ringed" headstamp brass out, & proceeded to seat 35 of the CCI primers - for an initial load workup.

I was barely able to seat the primers, & in fact, actually damaged (& replaced) 2 of them. CCI primers have a reputation for being hard, but it is difficult to believe that was the only problem. Talk about tough!

The seated primers look OK, but they were tough enough to seat, that I am concerned about their integrity. Thinking about popping them out, & trying a few WW primers in the same brass. Also may try the CCI primers - in some Starline brass, that I have on hand.

Guess at this point, I wondering if anyone else, has experienced anything similar - w/ either Fed 357 brass, and / or CCI primers? Any input would be appreciated.

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Regards - GCF

I have that problem with Sellier&Bellot brass.

Go slow and easy, it's not the hardness but the softer primer is deforming(slight ridge) as it goes in and your having to push past it.
Sometimes just plain flattening the primer.

You may have maximum spec primers with minimum spec primer pockets. Trying different combinations as you mention is the best and only way to a solution. I've probably run across your problem before, but not to the degree you mention.

Not sure I understand the "ring" based on your description. If there is actually a ring of material that is separate from the primer pocket, it would be impossible to seat a primer.

Regarding real or alleged hardness of CCI primers... as long as a gun is good condition and hasn't been messed with , CCI primers will function flawlessly, just as they all should.

Try seating the Win primers in the "ringed" brass, what it might (might) be is the primers where stuck and when deprimed the edges got "welded" (do to age, crud whatever)to the brass.

If the Win primers are hard to seat than it is the brass. If you can post a picture of the "ringed" brass primer pocket.

The Win primers are a tad easier to seat but not that much!

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Still Running Against the Wind

A "hard" primer has nothing to do with fit. In my exp, current win primers are ever so slightly small in Dia. If ypu think your brass is crimped, simply remove the crimp. I've crushed primers pretty flat during seating in tight pockets, they always go bang.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

No way to post a detail pic, unfortunately.

Typically, I expect to see a VERY slight, 45 degree bevel - just breaking the stamped case head edge, leading into the primer pocket. A piece of recent manufacture Lapua .308 WIN brass (if you have one handy), would be a good example.

The "ring" on this brass, could also be described as a very shallow, machined (or stamped) circular step down, that extends outward from the top edge of the primer pocket - almost to the manufacturer / caliber case head stamp.

Never seen it before...

I'll probably try 5 CCI primers, in the "non-ringed" Fed brass - for starters.

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Regards - GCF

I checked for a crimp, but couldn't detect one. That said, it sort of feels like trying to seat a primer - in a poorly swaged piece of military brass.

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Regards - GCF

Primers took a LOT of effort to get seated. usually Starline is top notch. Other people complained about the same time. Besides that the cases were HARD to size. After that I think I need to get a pocket uniformer or some tool. I can stand back and throw the primers into the pockets of a lot of my used 9mm brass. If I want more consistency, I'm going to have to do some more work on the cases.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

OK gents, I think the mystery may be solved: Off center primer pockets.

Noticed on some pieces, the ring (step down) is wider on one side of the primer pocket - then the other.

A dial caliper measurement on the narrow side, from the primer pocket - to the outside edge of the rim, shows 0.129". The same measurement on the opposite side, shows 0.135".

The "non-ringed" Federal shows only 0.002" difference. A piece of Starline .357, shows less then 0.001".

Glad to have found the problem, but it kinda' sucks - as 250 of the 500 purchased, are "ringed"... Paid a bit over normal market value too (on this forum), as we were in the middle of a .357 brass famine.

I suppose they could be used, if a guy could figure out a way to seat primers - with out a bunch of drama. Open to suggestion - if anyone has any ideas...

;=)

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Regards - GCF

A couple of years ago, I got it in my head to "Match Grade" process, some 1X fired, RP .45acp brass - for my pride & joy, Kart NM barreled, Series 80 Colt GM. This was to include uniformed primer pockets - as I've noticed that WW, or Fed LP primers, don't seem to seat deep enough, in RP .45acp brass.

Bought a primer pocket reamer from Sinclair, & went to town. Careful as I was not to overdo a good thing, I ended up w/ leaking primer pockets.

The reamer has since been un-ceremoniously retired...

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Regards - GCF

With an old Lee hand primer the cartridge can float enough to seat off centered brass if it is front-back rather than side to side. I would also contact Starline about their return policy.

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Front sight and squeeze

GCF,

You may have never seen (or heard of) crimped primer pockets on commercial brass, but I have! The "step down" you describe around the primer pocket is just that, an annular crimp. There could be several reasons this was done, such as a contract requirement from a government agency. All government purchased ammunition is not military!

You can ream them, swage them, or give them away if it is as big a problem to you as you seem to feel it is.

I would offer to buy the "bad" ones from you, except I already have more than 3000 .357 cases and have no need whatsoever for them!

Use a Hornady pocket reamer, try a few see if it helps

Hornady Primer Pocket Reamer Tool Small

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Still Running Against the Wind

It's likely that you have some crimped cases. This seems to be something that is becoming more widespread in commercial ammunitions, why I do not know but perhaps is something that has been requested by some in the Law Enforcement community.

What I do know is that I am seeing more brands of cases with crimped primer pockets and with some brands that crimp is done VERY subtle manner. For example if you look closely at a current Speer case head you'll see that it's slightly dished in towards the primer. That is a crimp and if you attempt to seat a primer in one of these cases you will find that a lot of your primers require so much effort to seat that they are actually crushed.

Currently on my list for having the primer pockets swaged are S&B cases, Speer cases, any case with a ring surrounding the primer pocket and any case with the old style staked crimp. In rifle cases anything with a NATO mark or any Lake City cases get the pockets swaged.

It is Federal brass (not Starline), & purchased 1X fired off the forum.

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Regards - GCF

Well, a guy learns something new every day...

The off center thing IS interesting though. "Good enough for government work" maybe??

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Regards - GCF

Might be worth a shot. I'm not running out of .357 brass, but hate the idea of scrapping it - if easily salvageable.

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Regards - GCF

Interestingly, the more I think about it, this brass had some kind of bullet sealer applied to the inside of the neck area. Another new one on me - & tough to remove, too.

Maybe this stuff is all SOP for manufacturers today. Don't know.

This was actually, the first fired brass I've ever bought. Until recently (2 boxes Speer 135 GD / SB), I haven't even bought factory ammo - for probably 8 - 10 years...

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Regards - GCF

Xylene will dissolve the sealant like butter. If you cant find that (paint dept) try Naptha (lighter fluid)

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Still Running Against the Wind

It will probably do a pretty good job of removing some carbon buildup inside the case too. Xylene is some pretty potent smelling stuff, so be sure to handle it in a well ventilated place.

We use a 50/50 mixture of xylene and isopropyl alcohol for testing oil based invert emulsion drilling fluids in the oil industry.

I have been handloading for 50 yrs now and no, that doesn't make me
an expert, always right or any other kind of know it all. But going back
as far as I can remember I have found CCI primers, small and large,
much more difficult to fully seat than other domestic brands. I have
seen all kinds of explanations as to why it isn't the primers as is being
demonstrated here but I have solved the problem for my own loading.
I buy and use other brands of primers and leave the CCIs for others.

And I'll take them.

I have never seen a primer pocket that was visibly off-center. In any event, I have a set of Lyman small and large reamers to use on tight-fitting primer pockets, or military cases with crimped primers. I've had those reamers for over 40 years. I have also noted that S&B cases seem to have slightly undersized primer pockets. So does Fiocci, but not as bad as S&B. RCBS used to sell a set of small and large pocket swages for use on your reloading press. I have a set, but don't use them often. Much faster than hand reamers if you have lots of cases to handle.

The worst primers I can remember was some Korean military .30-'06 brass with crimped primers which were impossible to remove. I'd punch the bottom of the primer cups out. I threw all those away.

Try the Lee Autoprime. I've yet to see a primer/case combo that couldn't be achieved easily with the Autoprime.

The dishing, concavity, on Speer case heads has been around for a long time and doesn't pose any difficulty, for me, when it comes to priming.

That goop at the case mouth and sealant at the primer pocket are pretty standard for high end self defense and military ammo.

I've never seen crimped primer .357 mag ammo and can't imagine why it would be done. The only reason military ammo is crimped is to keep the primer in place when fired full auto. And I'm not aware of any full auto .357 guns. In fact the only military use of .357 mag I'm aware of is some of the Elite Guard at SAC Headquarters at Offutt AFB, Omaha, NE, until SAC stood down in 1992. They were originally issued Model 15s, but later some got the .357 mag S&W Model 19, nickeled, with stag grips, carried in cross-draw holsters. No full auto there!

http://www.usafpolice.org/uploads/3/...55391_orig.jpg

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Two suggestions:

1. Lightly ream or bevel the rim of the primer pocket so that the primer edge won't catch on the rim of the primer pocket. You can do this with a chamfer/debur tool. You can also use an inexpensive countersink drill bit to do the same job. Just go easy and don't go deep.
2. Use Federal primers. I used to use CCI SRP's for both rifle and pistol applications because they worked in all my guns and it minimized the variety of primers I needed to keep in stock. A local gun store often put Federal primers on sale for $23/k so I tried a box. Seating these are a pleasure. I have an LnL AP and also use the new Lee hand primer so the chances of a chain fire explosion is minimal. I would not use these primers with the old Lee hand primer or with a Dillon press because of the stories and pictures of primer tubes embedded in the ceiling.

Sounds like crimper primers to me. No fault of CCI. I will take any CCI primers or crimped brass that anyone does not want.

After a 10+ year hiatus, I resumed reloading about 10 months ago. I had always used CCI LPP and SPP previously and bought a 1000 primer pack of each and loaded them without any problems. My next purchase was a 1000 pack of Federal LPP and I had problems seating several primers out of the first 100 primer card. I think the primers were too big because other Federal primers in the same card fit fine in the same case and CCI primers also fit fine in the same case. The rest of the carton was not as bad and my second 1000 pack of Federals seems fine. I must have purchased a bad batch, but since it was my first purchase of Federals, I questioned whether all Federals were the same.

There have been lots of reports on other forums of crimped primers in brass not normally found crimped. About the pockets being off center, anything is possible. Try de-priming these:

70l3ie.jpg

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

OK, so I found yesterday I have both types of small pistol primers on hand, CCI and Winchester. And I had a bunch of 9mm brass all prepped, in trays, begging for primers. So I decided to prime 100 each.

I used my ancient Lee Autoprime set up for small primers.

Note this brass was really mixed range brass, from outdoor ranges and at least 25 different headstamps.

They all went in without issue.

I think I can conclude, having done a side-by-side test, that the Win. go in a bit more smoothly. Feels like the CCI are a smidge fatter and slightly gritty. Not enough to be annoying or problematic, just different.

But, both did go in and seated fully without any problem.

Lot numbers:

Win.: TAL002G

CCI: A06R

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Tom S.,

Hard to see, but those look like .223. Wow, you've had some bad luck on those!

The only off-center flash holes that bad I've ever encountered have been some of the infamous Amerc in.45acp.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

GCF reports a bad experience after using the Sinclair primer pocket uniformer. My experience is completely the opposite and I not only swear by uniforming the pockets but I've never once experienced any gas leakage from the primer pocket.

I chuck my uniformer in a cordless drill, and stop in about a second, or where I no longer feel any cutting action. It's important not to "help" the tool by wriggling the case from side to side as it is being cut. Otherwise, you'll have a cone-shaped primer pocket.

A couple of opinions, based solely on several years of handloading:

Regarding brass that requires a lot of work to make it close to right...consider that it may have salvage value only and is of no use to the practical handloader.

Primer pocket uniforming can generally be described as busy work. If brass actually "needs" uniforming, it should probably be discarded.

Thought I'd update this thread - as it seems to have taken on a life of it's own.

First off, I'd like to thank each & every one of you who provided input.

Second, I'd like to clarify that this brass was sold to me as once fired. I bought 10 boxes of 50 - Qty #500 total. Boxes were Federal American Eagle. No other info was provided by the seller, except that it had been fired in his revolver.

About 250 pieces, were noted to have a ring around the primer pocket. Although I initially thought the ring to be some weird head stamp, I now firmly believe it to be a crimp. Additionally, over 1/2 of the crimps, are some what off center to the primer pocket.

Tried to straighten out the crimp on a few, w/ a chamfer tool - to no avail. Pockets improved somewhat, but still measure off center.

Took 50 pieces of the NON-CRIMPED Federal .357 brass - from the same purchased batch, & w/ my RCBS Universal Hand Priming Tool, seated CCI SP primers. No seating issues experienced at all. Popped in - as easily as the WW SP from my stockpile...

At this point - for my purposes at least, the ringed / crimped primer pocket brass is pretty much junk. In dire circumstances, it could be made to work, but IMHO, life is just too damn short - to jack with it. The $25 invested, can be written off to an educational experience - which is NEVER a total loss!

I still have to wonder how this seemingly non-standard (borderline defective) brass, got into Federal's American Eagle production lineup...

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Regards - GCF