When POI and POA coincide that means your gun is "SIGHTED IN". It has nothing to do with accuracy!
When your gun can shoot nice tight groups, by whatever criteria may be deemed appropriate, that is the "definition" (a relative term?) of ACCURACY.

For rifles, MOA (1" group @ 100 yards) is an accepted standard.

For pistols, there seems to be some discrepancy. 1-1.5" @ 25 yds is fairly common from a traditional standpoint.
Elmer Keith considered 1.5" at 50 yards a standard of performance for a typical mid to large frame revolver.

The standard NRA bullseye targets are not some arbitrary design. They were carefully considered for the range and accuracy potential of commonly used handguns. Just look at a B-16 target and consider the size of the 10 ring for the prescribed distance of 25 yards.

Target shooting and SD shooting are pretty far apart. Under the strain a of an actual attack if I can hit an area the size of saucer, I'd be happy. I can shoot my 686 at 100 yards, but I never intend to carry a 686 or a Blackhawk or similar large, long barreled gun around with me. I'd love get to where I could shoot a snub or compact well at a distance but it's going to take more practice. I've also sworn that if I'm ever forced to pull the trigger, it won't be just once.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I'd love to see more 50 and 100 yard handgun target pictures with the load data used.

As Nevada points out, the chrono data attained at shorter distances is safer for the chrono and the target pictures he provides with the chrono data at short distances is a big plus for load development.....it weeds out many a load combination.....before getting to longer ranges.

__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT

If I carry my 6" 686 or a Blackhawk I can shoot a perp from 25 yards or more, EASY.

You know what? I don't carry either of those.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The opening post was about testing of ammo/ gun for group size, not suitable distances to practice various styles of shooting. And testing loads and potential Precision is done by removing other variables.( For Me 2 hand , with forearms braced is reasonably Precise, and known factor, YMMV.)

7Yds , if almost all your test targets aren't one hole, it$ probably a reflection on shooter.

If easily available at your usual facility, 25 yds is a good distance to standardize, that's good. If 20yd is what's available, roll with it.

Some facilities are 50ft . The margins of error make it fuzzier to measure subtle differences between similar sbooting loads, but the good, average, really bad can be easily told apart.pm

Since KelTec P11's were specifically called out, the meaningfull distance capabilities are a lot beyond 7yds. Sure the 25yd groups aren't bragging pretty, but they are stll useful data inputs to compare different loads , or different pistols. ( The answer for me is P11 is capable of two hand standing to 2/3 the distance of normal-ish pistols. Say 15yd vs 25yd.)

Now of course be realistic about what size groupings are acceptable for various guns/ distances/ purposes. And of course practice and build skills at all distances at various styles stances, and paces, including one hand and weak hand.
Er

I see lots of guys put up their targets at the 7yds mark.If he is a new shooter,I think that's the sensible thing to do;that plus having somebody telling him or her why that specific shot went wild!.If he is a veteran shooter,I just think that this is what he likes.Maybe his eyesight doesn't permit him anymore or...well,he must have a good reason.That might be due to a difficult gun to maSTER(SNUB)or shooter physical limitations,I dunno but since we're not all built alike...

Benching a gun,if done properly(I can do it acceptably with long guns but can't seem to be able to master it with handguns) only shows the capacity of the launching platform.Shooting offhand shows the accuracy of the combo gun/shooter.Generally,the second denominator is the limit. I kinda think that if a gun can do good at 25 or 50yds,it'll do great at reduced distances.My own ranges are 20 and 35yds.And I'm super satisfied when I can beat or get close to the best score I've done at these distances because I'm the guy I want to beat!
Qc

qc, you forget benching at 25 yards is also the best way to test handgun ammo.

__________________
susie

oh ... drive by's, SSRI duck shoots, riots ..... could think of more i'm sure.

__________________
it just needs more voltage

I'm going to take my 686, my 5943, my 'J' frame, my Shield and my Kel Tec I'm going to start at 3 yards and move out to 5, 7, 10, 15, 20 and 25 yards offhand with defensive style ammo. I believe that's the max in the indoor range. (I think I'll use BIG targets for the small pistols past 10 yards. ) I'd like to know how far I can go out and still have soft ball to saucer sized groups that would hit vital areas on a human target.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Bench resting pistols has pretty much nothing at all to do with SD shooting. Since that was specified, I take back all of my comments defending SD shooting.




...si gnitoohs esnefed fles........

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I understand you're point, but here is a friendly challenge.

Please do a range report of your own, and post your target pictures and load data here on the forum.

Of all the respondents, I've only seen target pictures from 4 members.
Forrest r, Nevada Ed, boatbum and myself.

There are several other members who post range reports here in the reloading section, but not many. There are also target pictures in the competitive shooting section with the Internet snubby match, but load data is usually not given by the competitors.

I am very grateful for the work done and shared by those members. Thank you!

__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT

What I hate is "my gun is accurate with xyz bullets." No distance, no group size, just "accurate."
I just assume that "accurate" means 6" at 25 feet...

OK.....here is a 44 Mag target shot at 100 yards, ten shots, 22gr of AA4100 powder behind 245gr cast lead gas check SWC bullets. Yes, the gun is scoped.

Attached Images

image.jpg (50.2 KB, 23 views)

__________________
Where we go one, we go all

I usually throw away my AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazines now since there is seldom anything in them worth saving. However, a single redeeming feature of the publication is the manner in which accuracy is evaluated for rifles and handguns. It remains the best among gun publications and provides useful information for readers.

There are some exceptions, but generally five, five-shot groups are fired from a non-mechanical bench rest at 25 yards for handguns, and the same at 100 yards for rifles. Groups are averaged to come up with a single, meaningful figure.

I rarely post targets because it seems a bit self serving, but here is one. Springfield 1911 loaded, 9mm, 4.8gr WST, 125gr ltc, offhand. Yes it does a bit better benched.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

When I read about a hand gun and the author talks about 15 yard accuracy I know there is little to be expected.

My joy is shooting against myself at a distance of 88 yards. Developing the best load for a particular handgun and making them perform at long distance is good times for me.

It is very easy to shoot a 10 shot group under 4 inches, but try to shoot a 100 shot group at that distance and you know what your load and handgun are capable of. This goes for 2" J frames to 10 inch N frames and everything in between, pistols included.

I could usually clean timed and rapid fire stages, but the slow fire stage always cost me some points. One day I cleaned the slow fire stage, I was very proud of my accomplishment, I showed the target to my coach and he said, "That is great, now lets see you do it 10 times in a row!" .

I have never forgotten his words.

The pictures of shot targets are interesting to me, but the one's that disappoint me are the ones by those that buy a $2000 - $4500 semi custom firearm with a 1.0" - 1.5" guarantee at 50 yds. and then brag about their 2.0" GTO target at 7 yds.

I really wanted to see what their custom high dollar firearm will do at longer ranges... you know, that 25 or 50 yd. group. I read about how great and wonderful these big bucks guns by Wilson, Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Les baer.... etc. are, but I just want to see what you fellas that have such items can do with them. Are these high dollar firearms worth the practical purposes of it's design or not?

I fully understand bragging rights, and the satisfaction of having the best of something. I'd like to see what the every day man can do with these sought after firearms. I like these things too and would really enjoy seeing what you that have them can do with them. Some of us can't afford such things but can appreciate those that do.

Keep shooting no matter the distance, it still improves our abilities and will keep us alive if the need to use it ever happens.

Wow! excellent
seeing groups like that at 100 yards is motivating

I've done most of my testing for load development at 25 yards
now I have new goal - gotta move the target out and see what I can do

thanks

__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT

fred, I don't see it that way - more the opposite of self serving - its about sharing the results of your time and efforts
I appreciate the info - here's what I think from your post

fred's got a Springfield loaded 9mm that shoots great - I'll have to check into that gun

I use Power Pistol in 9mm, WST in 45acp - gotta try some WST for the 9mm

and .......there is a time to come off the rest and shoot offhand

its motivating to me to see what can be done by others

thanks

__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT

For me, grouping like that at 100yds is just impossible if I didn't have a good handgun scope installed. It has an old Burris handgun 3-9x long eye relief scope on it. I shot it for years without one but I knew I could not come close to tapping into the potential of the gun unless I put one on it.
And yes I know that kind of shooting is an entire different world than self defense type shooting with a small carry piece.

__________________
Where we go one, we go all

Hk VP9 9MM PARA
Starline brass
Nosler 124 grain JHP
6.3 grains 800X
WSP primer
1.140" oal

10 shots - 7 yards
offhand

Attached Images

20150829_223431.jpg (81.2 KB, 14 views)

I was working up different loads for my 1975 colt Python 6" barrel in 357 mag. I tried bullet weights from 125gr JHP, 140gr JHP to 158gr JHP. I just couldn't get the gun to shoot accurately at 25 yds. Being the second owner I have no clue what the PO did. I decided to take it out to 100yds with the 140grs. I found out I could make pin point shots at 100yds.

Now I read about Elmer Keith making accurate shots at 265yds using a m29 with a 4" barrel. On you tube hickok45 did the same distance ringing steel gongs. It makes us think about the accuracy of a 4" barrel at 265yds.
I'm impressed.

Accuracy = the gun X the ammo X shooters ability.

Luck, the planets and stars all lined up has nothing to do with it.

With my ruger SBH 44mg / 7 1/2" barrel I was happy to pepper a 10" paper plate at 100yds in the beginning.

What length barrel on that Freedom Arms?
Was that target offhand or from a rest?

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

10" barrel from a rest.

__________________
Where we go one, we go all

I know but for some unknown reason,I can't seem to master the benching technique for handguns.Wether I support the frame,the barrel or only my wrists,I can't help to have unimpressive groups.But I found a way around the problem;whenever I want to test a new load,I have one of my friend who is a great shot test it.
Like they say,you can't make a horse drink if it is not thirsty...but you sure can make it lick salt!
Qc

I have my bnwcs doing fair at 25 bench with different guns & powders. I think I will move out to 50 if I can see that far with my 71 year old eyes. My 19-3 really likes 38s.

Attached Images

	DSC05237.jpg (87.7 KB, 19 views)
	DSC05236.jpg (110.4 KB, 21 views)
	DSC05234.jpg (95.9 KB, 16 views)

I find that when I shoot for a while at long range that I become more accurate at closer range. I learn to pay closer attention to the sights and more of the little things that contribute to accuracy. There is no end to the variables that influence accuracy.

Another thing I have learned is that a pistol that is shot with the firearm on the sand bags will shoot to a different point than when only my wrists are on the sand bag, when I shoot with just the middle of my forearms on the sand bags the point of impact is closer to when I shoot off hand.

Default technique - Use same grip, etc as you would two handed standing, with forearms supported.

I am impressed for sure. I can't even keep the cross hairs on my scoped handguns on target at 25 yards off hand let alone 100. many years ago my wobble wasn't bad can't say that anymore.

__________________
USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

I am proud of any group that I shoot that is all in the black at no matter what range. Nowadays, I shoot at 7, 15 and 25 yards as that is what our range is set up for. Years ago I shot out to 125 yards on a B-27 target. I practiced on keeping all shots with a 4" M29-2 in a 9 inch paper plate at 100 yards. All my shooting is off-hand. Qualified in the Corps on the Bullseye and combat courses as an Expert for 20 years with both the M1911A1 and the M9. Taught Navy Security and qualified on their courses with the M36 2" and Ruger 4" as Expert, wouldn't look good for the Instructor to qual as anything less. Qualified on the FBI Firearms Instructor Course as an Expert. Lately all I shoot is double action with a S&W PPC .38 Special and a M17-2 and a M18-7. As long as I can keep 90% or better of my shots in a 5 inch bulls at 25 yards and 100% of the shots in the same bull at 7 & 15 yards, I am a happy camper. By the way I only use iron sights.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

you should be proud, aj.
i mostly do 25 yards n i'm good at that but hitting anything double action is just impossible.

__________________
susie

Thanks, I picked up a M14 PPC revolver that is set up for double action shooting (hammer has been cut off) and the action is very smooth. That got me to shooting the M17 & M18 the same.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

what exactly is the trick to double action?
when i get a gun with a 4 lb trigger. i end up tearing it apart to cut that in half. this is very hard for me.
i get the best groups with a pull around 2 lbs,
my model 15-4 is my first double action. i'd love to shoot it that way but the pull is around a zillion pounds.
or at least 10.

__________________
susie

Not that there is a trick. It is just a smooth steady pull. To get a smooth lighter pull in double action, I believe that the single pull has to be made heavier. The tension screw in the grip frame has all the adjustment, if I am not mistaken. Pretty sure if I am wrong, someone will be along shortly to tell me so.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

thanks, aj.
so much for that.
my single action is perfect n i'll do nothing to change it.

__________________
susie

Loosening the strain screw isn't the best way to get a trigger job as light strikes can result and dependability is paramount in an SD gun.

As said before, dry fire practice can be done in your house anytime and it's a quick, cheap way to get better at holding the gun steady through a double action pull. Without recoil you can see what kinds of movement you give the gun when the hammer falls. Work on making your trigger finger move completely independently from the rest of your fingers/hand.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

thanks, rw.
i'll work on it.

__________________
susie

Back in the day as they say we did lots of exercises to improve our shooting. To increase the strength we used the V-shape spring hand exercisers for increasing hand strength. Also would turn them upside down and squeeze them with just the trigger finger.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The tension screw only gets you part way there. Smooothing of the internals & a lighter after market spring set gets you the rest. For me, any pistol, its not how light the trigger pull is but is it predictable & crisp. I shoot better with a crisp 5# trigger than a mushy 3.5#, especially at speed.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

http://smith-wessonforum.com/138840409-post4.html

"a K Frame, four screw, square butt with adjustable sights last week. The S/N: K 280579. I am thinking it is a Model 14, but not sure. It is heavily modified. The barrel is a very heavy slab sided six inch barrel marked A.F.Behlert, Cranford, N.J. Very heavy full length top rib that has what looks to be an Eliason type rear sight. The hammer has been bobbed and the revolver is DA only now."

I would imagine that Mr.Behlert slicked up the action years ago and it has gotten even smoother with use over the years.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.