I'm having a problem with my new 986+ hand loads backing out and locking up the cylinder rotation.
Everything is the same but the bullets. Same brand new re-sized never fired Starline cases. Same 5.0g Ramshot Silhouette powder charge, same S&B primers, same .002" taper crimp.
The difference in bullets is one is .356" Missouri 125g LSWC, 12 brinell non-coated @ 1.060"oal. The other is .355" X-Treme 124g RN plated @ 1.140"oal. The Missouri LSWC backs out and jams the cylinder rotation along with binding the ejector rod that calls for bumping the rod off the wood table to get the fired rounds free and the X-Treme plated shoots fine with no jamming. Also the X-Treme bullet rounds will shoot all the way down to 4.5g of Silhouette and functions fine. The Missouri bullet jams at 4.5g, 4.8g and 5.0g, with 5.0g being max load. So why would the lead bullet not expand the case enough to catch the chamber wall but the plated bullet does? I'm missing something here.......Thoughts?
PS- I shot factory Federal 115g RN and they work fine, which is leaving me with this pressure thing.

Are you using LFCD? Your crimp on the cast bullet may be sizing down the bullet, and you are not getting enough neck tension. Causing bullet creep in the cylinder. Pull one of the bullets and put a micrometer on them.

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Why are you mentioning the charge weights when that doesn't effect bullet pull? Neck tension is important and with most revolver ammo the proper roll crimp into the crimp groove. Unfortunately semi-auto bullets are different so brass neck tension is very important and crimp may help but it's not a cure for poor neck tension. Try a light roll crimp without damaging the bullet. That might help.

Did you post this on another forum?

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SWCA #3437

Sorry, but I'm not understanding this question in context with your original question.

The truth of the matter is some shooters have problems with Starline brass in their 9mm revolvers. Extensive discussions on the enos forum which is also a topic among revo shooters in my area and at least 1 well respected gunsmith that works on these revolvers.

I have a 929 which gave me some issues at first. Then I went to a dedicated brass headstamp and moon clips. No problems since. And I'm not bashing starline, I have a lot of it, works fine in my 9mm semi-autos and my 45 acp 1911

I believe the OP is talking about cases backing up against the recoil shield upon firing and sticking there, causing difficulty rotating the cylinder between shots and difficulty ejecting...not bullets jumping the crimp/creeping.

Interesting, never heard of that one before.
What would make them stick to the recoil shield?

Tapered cases try to back out of their chambers. It was extreme with the .22 Jet and .256 Winchester but the 9mm is tapered, too, to a much smaller degree but still tapered. As a cartridge is fired, the back of the cartridge's powder column ignites first and expands the rear of the case first, so it pushes backwards. S&W's most shootable 9mm revolver, the Model 547, had an extra pin above the firing pin, struck by the hammer as the firing pin was. It was called the limit pin and it's purpose was to push the case forward in the chamber so it didn't back up as it fired.

Revolvers usually have cases with straight walls, like the .38 Special, so they try to stay put better.

I can't answer why the 986 does this with one load and not with a similar load.

I think the problem with the .22 Jet and the .256 backing out could be overcome by degreasing thoroughly both cases and chambers with solvent. No trace of resizing lube , oil, etc. can remain.

No, I never had the need to use FCD on lead bullets.

Were the new cases sized before loading and did you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I believe either of these may solve the problem but both employed together would solve the problem.

That's correct.....

The 9 mm is tough to get right with cast bullets. They can be sized down buy the taper crimp die , while in the case. After taper crimping, they are no longer tight in the case.
Plated and jacketed bullets are harder and don't get sized down by the taper crimper. Try adjusting the taper crimp die so it just takes the bell or flare off the case, no more . The .356 bullet should stay put by case tension .
The 9 mm and cast bullets are a pain to get all the kinks worked out, but once you get everything figured out then they reload OK .
I solved my problems by sizing cast bullets to .357 and using the taper crimp die to remove the flare mouth, no more. After doing this that problem was licked. Then we had seating depth to work out, got that solved and now that pesky little round is at last cooperating .
Gary

Yes, I resized all my new cases and do not use the FCD. Now there was a gentleman at the range today that asked if I was using a Lee Full Length Resizing Die (FLRD) and I said yes. He said I should use an RCBS or Redding since they're full length dies are cut with the taper of the 9mm. I though it strange the Lee FLRD would NOT be cut with the taper, so that never ever entered my mind. BUT, the plated bullets shoot fine from the Lee FLRD cases.

What I mean is why when shooting the lead bullet does the case NOT expand enough to keep it from backing out. Whereas the plated bullet allows the case to stay in place by the case expanding properly to grip the inside of the chamber.

Both bullets do NOT have a crimp groove, so I can only use a taper crimp. I did not try another forum. One at a time....

Does your 929 allow you to shoot the round without a moon clip, my 627 does with .357 and 38 Special? The 986 does not, you must use a moon clip.

I understand that now that it was explained that the tie up wasn't because of bullets being pulled out.
So the cases stay back in the recoil shield and tie the gun up that way? What keeps them locked back there?

Makes two of us!
The only thing I understand here is about the taper crimp.The way I've been explained to do it is measure the diam of bullet(here .356)+ measure the thickness of brassXby 2 and add up.In this case if the brass is .005 thick at the mouth,that would give a crimped total of .366''.
This for the bullet staying in the case under recoil.But overpressure is totally another problem...exept if I'm missing a beat here.
Qc

No the 9mm is rimless so you have to use moons in the 929. I had my 686 cut for moons and I can go both ways but not on a 9mm revolver.

A couple of points, I'm not sure exactly which moons I use (thickness of the moons), I got them from the revolver supply company they work and are not too expensive but will not last as long as say the TK customs which are about $8.00 each.

The point is you have to use moons specific to the brass you use. Not all 9mm has the same ejector grove dimensions and not all moon clips work the exact same. If you go to TK customs website I think there is some information on this topic. If you want to save money call the owner of the revolver supply company and he will tell you everything you need to know. Another low cost option is Ranch Products but I haven't used them or spoken to them.

Crimp. I'm loading 9mm to meet USPSA minor power factor for revolver. My set up uses Dillon dies on a LNL press. It is a light target load, coated lead Bayou RN 135g 9mm bullets ( I think they measure .358) and a light taper crimp. You have to use a taper crimp. If your not having problems getting the loaded moon clips to load in the charge holes then your probably sizing your brass to acceptable dimensions. They should just plunk right into the cyl with no hesitation. Question? Is there any front to back play of the brass when loaded in the moon clips? Is there any end shake in the cylinder? Does the star ejector lie flat against the cylinder? What moon clips are you using? Have you tried Federal or Winchester brass?

I'm not shilling for anyone or any company or any website but go over to Brian Enos website and spend a couple days browsing the revolver area there is a lot of discussion on this and lots of loads/situations/solutions specific to S&W 9mm revolvers. Spend 5 minutes there and you will read enough to convince yourself that starline brass, good as it is, causes problems with these guns.

I think you are going to end up using one specific brass headstamp and one specific moon clip with a narrow range of powder charges. You might also try using 38 short colt brass which is a straight wall cartridge not tapered like 9mm. Full disclosure, I'm no expert on this but I know a few things. But there are tons of folks more knowledgeable on these things and could poke holes in what I'm saying. The rimless 9mm cartridge and the titanium cylinder are different from most classic S&W revolvers.

One other thing and this is may not have anything to do with your problem. The posters at the enos website are basically serious competition shooters. I'm not serious but I dabble with it. You will quickly find out that many complain that out of the box there are issues with theses guns. For example the 929 is a PC item but quite a few of them have to be fine tuned for optimal performance. My 929 had a 14.5 pound trigger out of the box.

Before I put a single round through it I took it to a revolver guy that did quite a bit of work on it. Mine had no end shake, BC gap was ok, crane machining was fine. But still I had action work, the forcing cone cut, the cyl trued, ball detent added to the crane for the open position, the charge holes chamfered, FI front sights added, hammer bobbed. Point I'm trying to make is not all of them are perfect when new.

That's what I was trying to say when I mentioned bullets for a semi-auto were different. Unfortunately you don't have the crimp groove for help. When I was loading for a 45 Auto revolver I tried hard for good neck tension and I slide use a roll crimp die to help prevent bullet pull. It did work but use only a little bit of roll crimp not to damage the bullet.

I asked about another forum because there was a similar post elsewhere but when I looked again it was not the same. (don't get old lol)

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SWCA #3437

What do the primers look like on the cast lead loads when they jam up the revolver? Normal, flat or pushed out?

When you test fire a PRIMER ONLY round in a revolver it frequently jams up the revolver (which is why I do them individually) because the primer backs out of the pocket. Because it had no case pressure (no powder) to force the case back against the blast shield, and push the primer back in the pocket (which is why primers have the shield's imprint in them), it jams up the cylinder.

.

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OMG don't I know that!! This revolver just came back from its second visit to S&W for excessive barrel cant. And for some reason, the first time it went back, when it came back to me they had replaced the cylinder. I have no idea why and neither did the rep from S&W when I talked to him, so that's a mystery. My 625 PC went back for several fit & finish issues, my 686 Talo went back for multiple issues including metal chips and and burrs throughout the cylinder/extractor. The only new revolver I purchased that did NOT have to go back is my 627 Pro Series.

They were normal. I'm familiar with the primers jamming the cylinder when fired with no bullet, I do that checking trigger pull weight for the primer I'm using. The case is pushing back just enough to jam against the frame. I tapped a few back into the moon clip/cylinder very lightly and it moved forward and freed the cylinder, so it seems to not take much rearward movement to jam.

I have always gone by bullet diameter + case thickness X 2 - .003". So .356" + .020" (.010x2) -.003" = .373" taper crimp. Mine are at .374".

Cobbler is talking about case set back binding the cylinder not bullets jumping crimp. We had discussed this issue before he posted it and I find it very confusing as well.
I have a 627 38 super that has been reamed to shoot 9x23 or 9x19. I shoot mostly 9mm with lead bullets and I have never experienced this problem with any load. My cylinder is steel so it could be the titanium cylinder of the 986.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Spitballing here, so consider these as suggestions only NOT something I've actually attempted.

First, the taper of the 9mm parabellum is rather distinct. Per SAAMI the case specs at 0.380 at the case mouth and 0.391 at the base (tolerance is +0.000/-0.007). This specified taper is something that I would only expect to see in factory new ammunition and it might not be present in cheaper range ammo such as WWB. Because in order to taper the entire length of the 9mm case you would need a carbide insert that is at least as long as the full length of the case or even a bit longer. That full length carbide won't come cheap and any rifle reloader will tell you that you'll need to use case lube for any full length resizing setup. Point is I don't believe you'll find an RCBS sizing die that actually produces a full length taper, for that you'll probably have to go to Dillon or Redding and be willing to pay more than about 150 dollars for the die.

However, in measuring the results from my Lee Sizing/decapping die they do appear encouraging. Down at the base where SAAMI calls out a tolerance of 0.384/0.391 I am measuring 0.388 inch. At midpoint I am measuring 0.380 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification if you average the large and small diameters called out and subtract about 1/2 the general tolerance. Finally for the last 3/16 inch or so the case measures at 0.372 inch, well blow what SAAMI calls out but this area gets resized during the flaring operation and when the bullet is pressed in. Next step is flaring, which sets the neck tension and flares the end of the case. Ignoring the diameter at the flare and just looking at the resized area I am seeing a diameter of 0.373 inch, so with these particular cases the flaring operation bumps the size up by 0.001 inch. I don't have any pin gages handy so won't comment on the actual effect of the flaring operation but that really isn't pertinent here. What is interesting is that for the length of the carbide insert Lee does incorporate a taper that allows the die to produce a taper that sort of approximates what SAAMI calls out.

Moving on to an assembled round featuring a Berry's plated RN I am measuring a diameter of 0.375 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification for this diameter and area of the case. Granted, it's only 0.001 inch over the minimum per the -0.007 tolerance but it is within spec. BTW, I measured my Lee Factory Crimp Die at the carbide resizing ring and with ID calipers that measures 0.382 inch and that ring is also tapered a bit so that the diameter at the base isn't effected.

The takeaway here is that the Lee Premium 4 die set for the 9mm parabellum actually produces a loaded cartridge that is within the specification for this caliber per SAAMI. This isn't what I expected to see when I started measuring, I actually expected to see that Lee had just used carbide inserts with a straight sizing section like what I have with my 38 special dies. It seems Lee figured out how to do something I didn't think was possible, so Kudo's to Lee. I also have to retract my assumption that in order to taper the full length of the 9mm case you need to completely enclose the case in a tapered carbide. In fact by using the tolerance range and a shorter tapered carbide it is possible to produce an assembled round that is within the SAAMI specification.

So, what to do in this particular case. I'm wondering if using a Roll Crimp and a rather "firm" Roll Crimp may produce enough of a rise in pressure during the initial ignition process to get the case to swell and "grab" the chamber walls. One assumption I'm seeing repeated is that too much crimp might "damage" the bullet. Hey, it's a soft lead bullet. I really don't think that it's really possible to damage this bullet with a roll crimp. At most it will just make a groove in the bullet, something we all see with grease grooves on lead bullets. The question is will that Roll Crimp reduce the size of the bullet and cause other issues. I don't think it will. However it will mandate the use of moon clips because a roll crimped case won't headspace properly. What I would suggest is a call to RCBS about the purchase of a Roll Crimp Die for this application and set the standard taper crimp die aside for these particular bullets. Note, the reason I suggest going to RCBS for this Roll Crimp Die is because the do make a Roll Crimp die for this caliber and my experience with RCBS is that for them pleasing their customers is Job One AND Job Two. Meaning RCBS goes overboard a bit to keep any customer who calls more than satisfied.

Don't buy an RCBS or Redding sizing die just yet. I found the Lee sizing die (mine's a carbide sizing die) sized better (tighter) than both the steel RCBS and CH dies I have. True the steel dies are tapered but for some reason the Lee carbide die sizes the upper body so it holds the bullet the best. Check and see if your's is a carbide die or steel die.
If it is a carbide , don't give up on it just yet.

Be sure to clean all lube from cases and cylinders before shooting and use a standard pressure load so the case will expand and grip the walls.
9 mm are tough enough to get right, throw in the revolver factor and things get real "challenging". Good luck....you can do it.
Gary

I use this die for my 9mm revolvers. It seems to help. Lee Undersized Carbide Sizing Die 9mm Luger

Interesting post scooter123. One thing that has been in the back of my mind in this thread has to do with pressure. To be honest although I've posted some thoughts I'm really having trouble understanding just exactly what the OP is experiencing.

Anyway, I have been trying to correct a light strike situation and did a little spring manipulation and wanted to test the gun without firing in the yard at midnight. So I loaded up a few sized brass with primers to see if they would light. JUst primers, no powder or bullet. They did light but they also pushed the primer out of the primer pocket enough to cause the cylinder to be jammed. I guess this is because there isn't enough pressure?

If I was a gambling man I'd put my $$$ on your lee expander.

The 2 bullets:
one is a short (no lube groove) bullet that is loaded with long oal.
The other is a 12bhn (???) typically the only sell 12bhn bullets for the 38spl/38s&w/cowboy 357's. Anyway the bullet is longer and loaded to a shorter oal.

What would an expander have to do with all this?
Typical expanders are made for jacketed bullets (.355) not lead/coated/plated oversized bullets. The expanders are designed to flare the case mouth enough to alloy the bullet to enter the case but still leave it small enough to have neck tension on that .355 bullet. A factory lee expander stem and a custom expander I made to use specifically with oversized lead/coated bullets.



You need to load a couple of dummy rounds with those lead bullets and then pull them and measure them to see if they are being swaged down in the loading process.

Lead bullet ='s being loaded deeper in the case. The lead is being swaged smaller. The case will have a little springback, the lead will not. The end result is a undersized bullet that isn't being held very tightly in the case. No resistance ='s no short start pressure which ='s no case expanding to seal/grab the cylinder walls. Which in turn leads to the cases going back and binding the revolver.

The other thing to look at is take your time and measure a bunch of different cases. You'll find that they is allot of difference in the thickness of the different brands age/usage of the different cases. Some a 8/1000th's thick other are 10/1000th's, most are shorter than the recommended .750/.751.

My 9mm reloads only started to shine after I decided to take the time and go thru the mixed brass and use only 1 brand with the same font. The loads went from 2" @50ft down to less than 1".

It sounds to me like your pistol has generous cylinders and you're undersizing the lead bullets in the seating process. The end result is that there just isn't enough short start pressure in those loads to expand the brass enough to let it grab/seal the revolvers cylinders.

Just something else to check.

I have the short expander. I set my "bell" to just barely allow the bullet to set in straight and seated the bullet. I felt some pretty goo tension then knocked it apart and measured the bullet and there was no change in diameter, so it was NOT being sized down. However, if I taper crimped to .375" the bullet reduced to .354" at the crimp to .355" just above the lube ring to the standard .356" size at the base. Maybe I should not taper crimp? Another thing I was considering was using a faster burning powder like Bulls Eye or Ramshot Competition. I'm thinking that may expand the case faster than the slower Silhouette and expand it to the chamber wall before it has a chance to back out. Thoughts?

[QUOTE=scooter123;139160669]Spitballing here, so consider these as suggestions only NOT something I've actually attempted.

First, the taper of the 9mm parabellum is rather distinct. Per SAAMI the case specs at 0.380 at the case mouth and 0.391 at the base (tolerance is +0.000/-0.007). This specified taper is something that I would only expect to see in factory new ammunition and it might not be present in cheaper range ammo such as WWB. Because in order to taper the entire length of the 9mm case you would need a carbide insert that is at least as long as the full length of the case or even a bit longer. That full length carbide won't come cheap and any rifle reloader will tell you that you'll need to use case lube for any full length resizing setup. Point is I don't believe you'll find an RCBS sizing die that actually produces a full length taper, for that you'll probably have to go to Dillon or Redding and be willing to pay more than about 150 dollars for the die.

However, in measuring the results from my Lee Sizing/decapping die they do appear encouraging. Down at the base where SAAMI calls out a tolerance of 0.384/0.391 I am measuring 0.388 inch. At midpoint I am measuring 0.380 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification if you average the large and small diameters called out and subtract about 1/2 the general tolerance. Finally for the last 3/16 inch or so the case measures at 0.372 inch, well blow what SAAMI calls out but this area gets resized during the flaring operation and when the bullet is pressed in. Next step is flaring, which sets the neck tension and flares the end of the case. Ignoring the diameter at the flare and just looking at the resized area I am seeing a diameter of 0.373 inch, so with these particular cases the flaring operation bumps the size up by 0.001 inch. I don't have any pin gages handy so won't comment on the actual effect of the flaring operation but that really isn't pertinent here. What is interesting is that for the length of the carbide insert Lee does incorporate a taper that allows the die to produce a taper that sort of approximates what SAAMI calls out.

Moving on to an assembled round featuring a Berry's plated RN I am measuring a diameter of 0.375 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification for this diameter and area of the case. Granted, it's only 0.001 inch over the minimum per the -0.007 tolerance but it is within spec. BTW, I measured my Lee Factory Crimp Die at the carbide resizing ring and with ID calipers that measures 0.382 inch and that ring is also tapered a bit so that the diameter at the base isn't effected.

I slugged my chamber and have .390" at the base, .386" midway and .382 near the mouth, then .3575" out to the end of the cylinder.

What you are using is not working so yes try some other things.

.

I'm not sure how you reconcile these two. How can the fired cases be so tight that you have to "bump" the ejector rod to remove the spent case but then you keep saying you need more pressure to expand the case?

You said the fired primer looks "normal" so if the primer isn't partially exposed (sticking out) then the case pressure forced the case rearward into the blast shield (breech face) forcing the primer back in it's pocket, which is normal.

Question: when you seat & taper crimp them do you have any lead shavings on/over the case mouth? That's always one thing I closely watch when loading cast lead bullets in auto cases as that messes with the headspacing & may be worth looking at.

Can you post a picture of one of those rounds before firing & then after?

.

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Thoughts?

I think you either need to remeasure or send your 12bhn bullet/lee short expander to the Smithsonian. You be the 1st person in the history of 9mm reloading that didn't squeeze that soft bullet down with that combo.

Take the same bullet and make it 18bhn and your problems will go away.

Like I said in my 1st post, those Missouri bullets don't sell a 12bhn bullet for the 9mm. They are 18bhn/.356 only.

Missouri Bullet Company

Their action series only have 18bhn/.356 bullets for the 9mm.

Missouri Bullet Company

Missouri's 38spl bullets on the other hand are a 12bhn bullet.

Missouri Bullet Company

You keep saying you have 12bhn/.356 bullets????

Anyway, with a soft bullet, a minimal bell, a expander that is designed to bell the case 1/4" deep and have .003" neck tension on a .355 bullet. You end up having problems.

But you can use a shorter bullet made out of softer material 12bhn vs 7bhn and not have the problem. Perhaps it's because:

The 7bhn plated bullet is shorter.
The 7bhn shorter plated bullet is not being seated as deep into the minimally belled case that has an expander designed for .355 jacketed bullets.

At the end of the day:
Short bullet seated shallow/longer oal ='s short expander
Long bullet seated deep/short oal ='s long expander



If a harder bullet (12bhn vs 7bhn) that is longer than the softer bullet is having problems, that's called a clue.

Myself I shoot both short bullets and long bullets in the 9mm. I load them both to the same 1.130" oal. As you can see 1 bullet seats a little deeper in the 9mm case compared to the other.



The red bullet pictured above, 10-shot group @ 50yds.



The green bullet pictured above, 10-shot group @ 50ft.



If you're not swaging those bullets down then you should be shooting bugholes in your targets like the 1 pictured above @50ft.

Myself, I never could get the 9mm's to group well until I used the type/style of expander that is designed for lead bullets. For some odd reason when I used an expander that was designed for lead bullets in the 38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp. Those groups tightened up as well in all those calibers.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

The plated bullets require greater pressure too shove them down the barrel than do the lead bullets. The lesser pressure behind the lead bullets may be the cause.

I would consider Bullseye powder and or a stronger Crimp. Just another complication to consider. 😨

I have a 986 and a 929 and I've come up with a couple of loads that work really well for me, I have settled on a 147 gr. TC coated bullet sized to .358 next I use a Lee U sizing die, then a Lyman M die to flair, add powder [ 4.1 gr. BE-86 or 3.6 gr. of Auto Comp ] seat the bullet to 1.125 and barley remove the flair then on the final stage I use a Lee 38 short colt roll crimp die. By using the above procedures I haven't had any more of the issues that you are talking about. I will on occasion let a "glock Buldged" piece of brass slip by and it won't just drop in the cylinder without a little help, that is when I will have trouble with extraction and have to bang the ejector rod, if I make sure that I don't use any of those type of brass everything is golden. I do shoot competition and run threw about 1500- 2000 rnds a month, that is what I have found that works for me. Also the bullet that I use is PC'd no grooves and the roll crimp works great with it. I also use the same bullet and loads when shooting my 627 using 38 short colts.

MCW2068, I too have both. I am going to try your recipe. I have everything but the lee 38 short colt roll crimp die. Midway will fix that.

Been away for a few days with overheating issues on a vehicle. Just got back from the range and tried a few things there, verdict is the Starline cases. The Winchester cases shot every 125g Missouri LSWC just fine with no issues at all. The Starline had issues throughout, with cases backing out and ejector sticking again even with faster burning BE powder and tighter neck tension. I have to apologize for some misinformation on bullet hardness and a dyslectic size posting, I'm glad some can read between the lines, thanks. I also load for .38 Special so I get the two crossed up at times.
I did use a Lyman M-Expander in my first loads from last week, so I didn't use it on today's loads thinking maybe it needed more bullet neck tension that some suggested, didn't seem to make a difference. Seems I can use Winchester cases with both bullets and be fine, or I can use Starline cases with just the X-Treme plated and be fine.
There is a lot of great information shared here with this issue and I can't thank you guys enough for the support and encouragement. I'll most likely call Starline in the next few days just to hear what they say. Seems to me their brass is geared towards the Auto market, and why not, that's where the money is.

What is a "TC" coated bullet? I take it this .358" bullet is the Powder Coated (PC) with no grooves.
I talked with a gentleman at Starline brass today and he said he is aware of the problem their brass has being fired in a 9mm and the Titanium cylinder is raising their eyebrows, but "they just don't know". He also said some guys are shooting .38 Short Colt in their 9mm. Ever heard of that? I load a Short Colt for my 627, actually and Medium Colt because the case is cut to .900". That won't work in a 9mm, too long of a case. This is interesting.....

Yes, there are shooters using the short Colt in the 929. Head over to the revolver section of the Brian Enos forum and search for the information.

TC= truncated point, kind of tapered with a flat tip. also the 38 short colt brass is the same length as the 9mm, I just switch the decap/sizing die and the flare/expander die when I switch from 9mm to 38short colt I use the 9mm to seat the bullet and the 38 short colt roll crimp to crimp on either one. I'm using the the same powder load, same bullet size/weight and the same OAL for both. By the way my short colt brass is Starline, but I useFed, Rem, or other mixed range brass, once I've shot it in my Revo's , I keep it separate from my other bottom feeder brass.

I do know of some people shooting short colt in their 929's, they are shooting heavy bullets 150-160 with long OAL, when reloading for these, it' my understanding that everything on the top end [dies] are 9mm, and shell plates are 38 spcl. they are calling them a wildcat load a rimmed 9mm. This is something I'm going to have to try.