My Lyman cast data shows +P max with 5.2 grs 231 and 158 gr RN.

I have regular 158 gr lead round nose bullets and intend to load with 5.1 grs 231 to be used in a +P rated revolver.

I think the pressure would still be within +P parameters (20k psi max) and within Lyman's recommendation.

I tried 4.5 grs 231 with same bullets but velocity from 2 inch was just a little over 800 fps. 5.1 grs would get me near my goal of duplicating Rem/WW 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP loads - I will chrono them also but beforehand need your thoughts and recommendations.

Appreciate any inputs. I think I'm ok going to 5.1 grs with 158 gr lead bullet in a m+P rated revolver...thoughts???

I also think you will be O.K. but pay close attention to your OAL. This may make your hand a little more sore. You may be better off trying a little slower powder, like HS6 or AA#5 or 7, or even Unique.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I would also consider what the accuracy is ? As you start pushing any powder too hard expecting too much velocity from it the accuracy starts to fall apart . Your 5.1 gr load is already in " unique " territory which is a slower burn powder . I have loaded a boat load of 38's 158 gr cast bullets for my fiancé . That load is 4.5 grs. Of Ramshot zip which is about the same burn rate as W231. 4.5 of zip is the " sweet spot " combining accuracy and velocity .
I have used a lot of unique for 38's / 158 gr cast bullets in my own loads starting with 5.0 . If your wanting more velocity I suggest a slower burn powder such as Acc #5 , unique , herco . I believe any of those 3 will do a better for you .

If you have a chrono, just keep adding enough 231 in small increments to arrive at whatever MV it is you think you need. No one can provide a recipe which will do what you want in your specific revolver. My feeling about using +P loads for any purpose other than "just in case" defensive use is well-known.

...but for close in defensive shooting, it's not quite as important as velocity.

I KNOW accuracy is important because I have some compact pistols that I'm plain not good enough with past 5 yards. I'm working on it.

I'm doing the same thing you are with Speer 135 gr. short barrels.

I have a 'J' frame and I've yet to try any stiff loads in it. I don't know if the recoil/control issue will come into play.

I agree with getting a slower powder. You won't be sorry because it's very useful in many applications.

<any years ago I got some really hot data from an old Sierra manual for 125 grain jhp which I loaded a starting load into my model 10. That was quite enough for me. In fact I thought that a real world load would be best at about .2 grain less than that.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Couple bits I think.

(1) What's the purpose of the cartridge? Are you just duplicating feel/POI for practice, or do you want to match the velocities closely?

(2) I would back off a bit further from the max, personally. I figure most charges dropped are going to be within +/-.1 grains, but .2- and .3-grain variances are easily within 1.5-2 standard deviations.

(3) I would chrono the WW/Rem loads you want to duplicate first, and then select a powder that produces those velocities comfortably. There's a corollary to "Never load over the book"--and that is, "Just because it's in the book, doesn't mean it's a good idea or that it will work well." There are full-pressure .44 Magnum loads for Alliant Bullseye--but we all know Bullseye's much happier at half that pressure, and than Unique would be a better fit.

The Hodgdon online data shows +p 38 loads for 231/HP38. That is what I use and no problems with it but I use these loads in 357 revolvers and +p 38 are fairly mild in them.

250 ft. lbs. of energy is pretty good out of a snubby. If you want long barrel velocity, use a long barrel gun!

Lyman's #46 edition shows 956 fps from a 4" barrel with 5.2 of 231 @ 320 ft.lbs of energy. I know I didn't like that from my 4" 686, I would never begin to use that load in any of my 2" J or K frames. It may be "safe" to use, but I'll pass.

Ivan

Lyman does their own pressure tests so if the list it I feel its safe. That said, like said above, I use HS-6 for my .38 Special +P ammo although W231 will do just fine.

I mostly use 3 handgun powders, my powder trinity. Even though the original powder trinity was Bullseye, Unique, 2400 mostly because there were no others my trinity is W231(HP-38), W540(HS-6) and W296(H110). I don't need others but because I like to play I do have about a dozen handgun powders lol.

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SWCA #3437

I load 4.5 gr Win231 under a 158 SWC in a magnum cartridge in my 3" l frame. A very accurate and light load for me.

Thoughts? Just one, you seem to worry WAY too much
about using W231 in the 38 spl and 357 mag. Your load will
be just fine.

You're right! I'll also chrono some 5.1 grs loadings soon.

Eric,

Based on Hodgdon data the 5.1/231 extrapolates to ca. 22,000 PSI, 10% over +P standard. Hodgdon doesn't list +P data for 231, probably since it exceeds +P pressure to just get standard pressure velocity.

They do show HP-38 as +P, same powder, go figure! They list 4.5/HP-38 at 18,100 PSI. Again this extrapolates to just under 22,000 PSI at 5.1 gr. (21,900 PSI).

Not saying that this is dangerous in a .38 Spl, but you need to take reloading equipment/bullet manufacturers data with a grain of salt! I am satisfied the powder manufacturers, which indirectly includes Hodgdon, have well equipped laboratories and are fully capable of measuring pressure. The others tend to apply the "We didn't see any pressure signs and the loads seemed safe in our gun(s)" standard.

You want to duplicate +P velocities better powders are Unique, Herco, HS-6, Silhouette, Power Pistol, BE-86 and others in this range.

Thank you, great advice. I had chrono'd same bullet using 4.5 grs HP38 sometime ago and averaged approx. 875 fps which is pretty close to WW 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP loading. The 5.1 grs will go into the Mod 28 at this point.

"Hodgdon data", "extrapolates", "probably", "exceeds +P
pressure just to get standard pressure velocity" ???? oh no
I don't hardly think so. Lots of arm chair theorizing here
but minus a few facts. I don't understand why those who
seem to look only to the net for load data and think
Hodgdon's huge web site is the be all, end all source for
load data, forget that Hodgdon MARKETS powder. Original
Win data for 231 shows 4.7 grs with a 158 gr SWC as barely
+P at 17,100 psi and 860 fps from a test barrel. Their max
listed charge for std pressure is 4.5 grs at only 15,800 psi
and 830 fps from a test barrel. Those who use 231 often
know that it only takes 4.0 grs to reach 800 fps from a 4"
38 spl revolver with a 158 gr cast bullet. Swaged bullets
will run a little slower as they always do.

Pushing the limits with a fast powder is bad Ju-Ju. Try 4.9 gr and be mindful of OAL. That gives you a good safety margin and is significantly stouter than your current load. If that doesn't get you close enough for your purposes, you should change to a slower powder.

p.s. Chances are that the factory +P loads your trying to get close to do use a slower powder.

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Dave

"Expended" the 5.1 grs (HP38/231) but my chrono priority was with my 357 mag. The 5.1 grs was just fine out of my Mod 28. I'm being better served with PP for my +P loads at this point.

I too like this recipe. I have been loading 4.8 gr of 231 with 158gr LSWC`s for a long time. Its good on steel and pepper poppers and very accurate. I chrony it regularly and it usually runs 850fps though a 4" 686.
Jim

Obviously you are not aware of the basis behind load estimation, within reasonable limits, by extrapolation and interpolation of existing data! The various entities who publish loading data in manuals engage in this all the time!

Second point. Both HP-38 and 231 are actually manufactured by St. Marks Powders, a division of General Dynamics, at their St. Marks Florida facility. You make a big deal about "Winchester data". For the past several years Hodgdon has been the distributor for propellants sold under their own branding, IMR, and Winchester. In case you have not noticed, current reloading data for all three brands is available on the Hodgdon web-site. Where identical powders, such as 231/HP-38 and 296/H-110, are distributed under different brand names the data found for these duplicate propellants is identical. Why would you make believe that "Winchester" data is in some way more valid than that published for the Hodgdon numbers?

I suggest you do a bit of studying on the subject before getting "snotty" about another's post based on your own inadequate knowledge of the subject!

Oh Alk you don't know how much I would like to let this post
slide by but I just can't. You consistantly cast yourself in the
role of the old guru and others as ignorant newbys but you
are just flat out wrong. Yes I do understand extrapolation
and interpolation of existing data and do it often myself but
you must have good data to begin with. You continue to go
with your assumption that everyone but you is nearly blindly
ignorant of everything in general. Yes "current" data for
Hodgdon's marketed powders is available on their website,
current published data by Hogdon that is. Can you even
possibly believe that Hogdon has retested all the data they
publish on their site rather than just selectively copying
original data with an emphasis on being conservative??
Yeah I believe in original Winchester data. Developed by
Winchester back when they marketed their own powders,
sold under the Winchester name and produced for them
by the St. Marks company. Do yourself a favor Alk, climb
down off your throne, do a bit more reading yourself than
"current data" as published on Hogdon's largely copied web
information. Lighten up and realize that a lot of older data
is very useful indeed.

It does seem when you look at the data for W231 and the data for HP-38 that Hodgdon always seems to pick the most conservative of the rwo for their site.

According to the current data on the Hodgdon site my LONG TIME load of 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet is .3gr over max. I have no doubt it is not.

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SWCA #3437

That load of 3.9grs max makes me wonder if they are referring to swaged bullets . The load data for jacketed 158 gr bullets shows a max of 4.3 grs , +P is 4.6 grs.
My std load for many years under my 158gr cast bullet is 4.5 grs / 231 . It will stay that way . The poor ole 38spl has been beaten down so many times with reduced loads . Some say it's because of the import guns not being of good quality . Others say it's because of the 100+ yr old 38spl's still out there that weren't heat treated when being made .
I have never seen a pile of shot out 38's yet waiting for the scrap heap. During the time yrs ago they were being used the older manuals had some pretty hot loads .

All I know is, current load data for the .38 Special deprives us of the true capabilities of that fine cartridge. It's no wonder why so many claim it's weak. I wonder why the 9mm isn't downloaded since there are also very old pistols out there too.

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SWCA #3437

AA , I completely agree with you on all of your above statements . The 38spl is a very good defense round as well as " all around " cartridge . There's a lot of bad guys taking a dirt nap because of it .
I am a real fan of HS-6 for 38spl and 357 mag (and others ) but I won't use Hodgdon's current load data , esp for the 357 . Look at the pressure they show for the max charge . I will not post my loads as they are over current max .
I am not recommending this to others , just saying that for my own personal use , I use older load manuals .

Just a note. You cannot really extrapolate pressures. Every powder/cartridge builds presures diff. Faster powders are much steeper increases as you get to max. So forget charting & extrapolating pressures. Some powders spike as you go thru the max so 1/10gr can be a lot more pressure.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Just saw this thread.

Only one opinion here, but I just wouldn't use fast-burning powders in order to assemble "performance" .38 Special handloads because +P performance just can't be had.

Posted a personal test here a few years back. See post No. 42. Note that the slower powders used yield the highest velocities, even in 2-inch barrels. One would run well off into the weeds with pressure issues before such velocities could be attained with 231 or similar.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

100% correct + the pressure curves aren't as steep as powders slow down. So going a little over book, usually less pressure drama. I would go a bit slower with WSF or Unique to get +P vel with safer pressures. Yes you will get more blast & flash, but you will get higher vel with less pressures.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I'd go with Unique(or other with similar burning rate);much safer and it delivers!
Qc

Unique and HP38 are right next to each other on at least some burn rate tables.
Is there really that much difference?

Best,
Rick

I have never seen them right next to each other. Close but not right next to the other.

As for differences, even if they were right next to each other, the return rate chart will tell you which is faster or slower, not how much faster or slower.

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SWCA #3437

I am also a huge fan if HS-6 for the .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum but like you said, not with Hodgdon Load Data. Lyman gives us more realistic data that goes up to 9.7gr HS-6 under a 158gr LSWC bullet. My standard middle .357Magnum load is 9.2gr HS-6 under the same bullet. Great small game and plinking load too.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

In a word, yes. Burn rate doesnt tell the entire story & it changes with each caliber/cartridge & even with bullet wts. Again pressure curves are diff even if burn rates are sim. The faster the powder the steeper the curve.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO