I purchased a can of W231 specifically to load up some light to moderate target loads with 148 grain lead Lee wad cutters. All my research points to this being a good combination.

Am I correct, in that my research also indicates that W231 is NOT the better choice for loading +P Home Defence loads? I have other powders such as Blue Dot, Universal, Vht 3n37, and others that should do this job fine. I don't want to wast my 231 on a job it is not best suited for.

I use it for moderate 38 specials toward the upper end of the loading chart, with very pleasing results.

I've used it for other calibers as well. Sometimes I like it & sometimes I find something better.

Most of the time for the limited ballistics required for range games, without the hard measurements of chronys and target accuracy patterns, W231 works well enough for me to rely on it without worrying about 'ultimate performance'.

It's one of the powders I usually buy more of when supply runs low.

I tend to shoot whatever caliber I use it in, and have pretty consistent performance. Don't have the charts handy, but 148 wadcutters can function very well with considerable variation in recipe. I like 231 with 230 RNL from 1911s as well.

I'm sure others with tighter specs will add their comments shortly.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

I think you may find a number of +P 231 loads for the .38 Special.

I will continue to research.

Another way to think about this: W231 and Universal for lower pressure cartridges (38 SPL, 380 ACP), 3N37 and Blue Dot for high pressure cartridges (9mm, 40S&W) ... The +P designation doesn't automatically mandate a powder change. This is a topic, (like politics and religion) that can certainly escalate into a heated exchange.

W231 is not a bad choice for both standard and +P .38 Special loads. I do prefer a slower powder for top end +P loads especially with heavier bullets. I use AA#5 and HS-6 for specialty .38 Special +P loads but you can use W231. You will probably fall short of the highest velocities of the slower powders. As long as the velocity with W231 falls within the performance envelop of your SD bullet you are fine.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

+p indicates a higher than Saami pressure level. So yes, you can do that with any powder but the question is which powder gets you to +p safely & gives you higher vel. Generally, that would not be a powder like w231. You could just get there, but there are better choices like. unique, wsf, power pistol, etc.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

231 is ok for +P. Years ago standard loads listed in some manuals are now listed as +P. Im at 4.8 gr of 231 and have used that one for decades. This has been my experience. I used the extra punch on plates, poppers and pins and as a defensive load with 158gr LSWCs.
As with any load, work up carefully and observe for any signs of excess pressure.
Jim

HP38/win231 works just fine for +P loads listed in the manuals. There is no problem with using them, but of course, don't start with max loads.

+P loads with this powder will not yield the same max velocities as slow powders at the same pressure, so when you reach near max +P loads with medium powders and want to go faster, switch to a slower powder.

As I've posted about 1,000 times on this forum, MV is determined by the total area under the pressure curve (total work done on bullet), NOT by the MAP (max average pressure) which is used to rate +P.
It is one of the most often misunderstood details of handloading.

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Science plus Art

many thanks to all the posters and all the shared knowledge. I do have other slower powders that I am sure will perform better in the +P defensive load arena. Of course, I currently have the lighter 125 grain Hdy XTP's. I intend to get heavier ones soon.

Consider viewing Hornady's website, if you haven't already done so. The 125 XTP HP functions properly at 38 spl velocities, while the 125 XTP FP must be driven at 357 magnum velocities to achieve proper design performance. Happy shooting!

All +P means it that you are going to load 20000 MAP rather than 17000 MAP.
The point is, if the goal is max velocity, then you want the slowest powder for that cartridge.
So, if you are loading 125 gn jacketed bullets and get the same results as Hornady, then the max load of 231/HP38 would be 5.4gn and the MAX +P load would be 5.7gn, for 900fps vs 950 fps. If you used Power Pistol, you would go from MAX of 6.8gn to MAX +P of 7.1gn, for 1000 fps vs 1050 fps.
You really think the target is going to be impressed?

Then, there is always my fear:
"The defendant loaded his own killer ammo at pressures over the industry specification just so he could KILL my client. This shows premeditated intent..."
May not happen, but I want my HD and SD ammo to be factory only.

While agree with all of the above, pushing W231 for +P would not be just fine in my book. IF the goal is save +P vel, then a slower powder will be better. W231 can be made to work, but not the best tool for the job.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

+P is relating to chamber pressure. Nearly all pistol powders will achieve +P pressures, but some happen to a slightly job than others (consistency is better with some powders ,and some powders may be "spiky" at higher pressures).Yes, you can produce +P pressures/loads with W231, but some powders will do the job easier...

231 from a Winchester book

Attached Images

DSC04561.jpg (94.8 KB, 63 views)

And you could reach the same +p vel with std pressures using slower powders. That is the point many of us are trying to make. I can make +p pressure 38sp with Clays, but i wont get the vel that w231 gets, or i canuse say Unique & get there w/ less pressures.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

What is the need for +P loads?

Just askin

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State of Jefferson
Jim

It seems we are mostly on the same page. I agree using factory loads for HD or SD can avoid a big lefal hassle. Working up loads that achieve similar ballistics allow a cheaper means of practicing without burning through all the expensive factory loads. That being said, and realizing my other powders would be better choices for achieving +P velocities at lower pressures than 231, the next decision is to select one that feeds best through my Hornady LNL AP powder measure.

231 has been my "go to " powder for over 30 years. I have over 20 lbs of various powders on my shelf, and do use a variety, but I do use 231 to load;.380, 38 S&W, 38 Special, 32 S&W Long, 357 (mid-range), 9mm, .45 ACP, 44 Special. It isn't the best for all of them, but makes respectable standard velocity and many Plus P loads for most of them. If I had to settle on only one powder for handgun loads, it would be 231.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

There is no "need" for any of the particular loads with the dozens of powders and hundreds of combinations possible in all the bullet/caliber choices.
The loading manuals show the result of testing of many combinations that fell within "safe in modern arms", and it is up to the loader to select what he/she wants to use. There is no magic "best", and many myths abound in loading, like "the lowest max pressure is always best."

For example, I shot a barely +P .38 to make minor power for decades (until IDPA lowered their power factor requirement to match commercial 130gr ammo), but a +P .38 in a Model 66 is still WAY below the pressure rating of the .357 revolver. Why burn twice as much of a slow powder, which increases the recoil, costs more, and leaves more powder residue? No .38 spl cartridge loaded to SAAMI specs comes close to stressing a .357 revolver.
The truth is, many powders don't really burn well with low pressures in .38s, but settle down and give good performance when the pressure gets into the upper range. Ask anyone who tried loading their light target wadcutters with Blue Dot.

Internal ballistics are very complicated, and that's why we use loading charts.

And in spite of the term being used often, as above, there is no such thing as "+P velocities." +P is a PEAK PRESSURE term, and does NOT correlate directly with bullet speed. I can load a cartridge with a fast shotgun powder so overpressure it will turn your gun into a hand grenade before the bullet reaches the speed easily achieved with say, Universal powder loaded to safe pressures.
Look at the shapes of the total pressure curve:
pressure curve in pistols - Bing images
A wide flat curve gives more speed than a sharp peaked curve, at the same max pressure.

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Science plus Art

You can load even fast powders (like Bullseye) to +P performance levels. The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows several +P .38 Special loads using Bullseye. So of course, 231 would certainly work for +P loads for the .38 Special. And depending on your specific revolver and bullet choice, it may even be the best performer. But you won't know that unless you have a chronograph. Reloading manual MVs are more often than not wishful thinking, especially so for revolvers.

For home defense, you won't be shooting much, so you might be just as well off buying a box of +P factory loads if that gives you more confidence than using regular standard velocity .38 Special ammo. I have always felt that there's not very much advantage to using +P in .38 Special.

I and several others have already said the +P designation denotes higher pressure, not velocity. Of course most time the results are higher velocities but if using a fast powder you will many times hit the pressure limits before generating the desired velocity. Velocity isn't important just for velocity but is necessary to insure reliable expansion of the bullet. Since most .357" bullets these days were designed for the .357 Magnum most anemic .38 Special loads today deliver questionable velocity at standard pressures. That's why +P ammunition is most times necessary for SD.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

WIN 231 can be effectvely and economically loaded to +P velocities in 38 S&W Special brass. It can also be loaded in 357 Mag brass at +P velocities and to significantly higher ones, albeit with lighter projectiles. Still, a 158GR XTP at over 1,200 fps using less than 7GR powder is nothing to sneeze at, IMHO.

As far as a "regularly available all-around handgun powder" it ranks up there with 700-X and 800-X in that there are published loads avaiable for almost all common pistol calibers from 25ACP to 44Magnum. Not always at the high ends of the power spectrums but certainly enough to punch holes in targets.

Cheers!

Barrel length is also a factor. 231 will produce higher velocity in 1 7/8 and 2 inch barrels than a slower burning powder. 4 and 6 inch barrels will sometimes produce higher velocity with slow burning powders depending on loading. That fire ball at the muzzle is mostly unburned powder that is doing nothing for velocity at that point.

I'm sorry but that just isn't true. At the same pressures HS-6, Power Pistol, AA#5 and other slower powders in that range will generate higher velocities than W231 even in a 2" barrel. I know this for sure because I have tested them and the velocities just can't be matched by W231. So will Longshot, AA#7 and other powders that are just off the full magnum range. I haven't tried but I'm fairly sure so will the full magnum powders like 2400 and AA#9.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

>Barrel length is also a factor. 231 will produce higher velocity in 1 7/8 and 2 inch barrels than a slower burning powder. 4 and 6 inch barrels will sometimes produce higher velocity with slow burning powders depending on loading.

Sorry, that has been disproved in the '60s, the 70s, the '80s, and the 90s. Current magazine don't seem to do ANY testing, and I don't remember this being disproved in the last 16 years.
At ANY barrel length, the powder that produces the highest velocity ALWAYS produces the highest velocity, taking into consideration the std. dev. of the velocities such that there can be a small shift in avg velocity.

>That fire ball at the muzzle is mostly unburned powder that is doing nothing for velocity at that point.

According to the powder specialists, all the powder that is going to burn will burn in the first inch of the barrel in ALL rifles, so the same must be true for handguns.
The muzzle flash is hot gasses still so hot that they radiate light. This can be controlled by muzzle suppressants that lower the temperature and reduce/eliminate the flash. Yes, there can be unburned powder, and you'll get it from fast and slow powders.

I also stand by that theory;I remember reading about a test in the late '70, or early 80's(don't remember if it was American Handgunner or Shooting Times)reaching the same conclusion as Archangel and yours.And it was conducted with the then available scientific tools.
But I must admit that I've been always stiffeled by the guys who said that the flash was created by unburned,thus innefficient powder.Love your answer (hot gasses produces the flash).Now,I'll have something to plug up the pipes of my friends who support the ''other''theory!Thanks Noylj!
Qc