I have loaded 115,124, 147 and just posted my plated Xtreme 135gr finals.

Has any one loaded the larger 158gr or the even larger 165gr 9mm bullets yet ?
With the reduced volume, will Ball powders be the way to go?
Thanks for any info.

I've used 3.0 grains bullseye with a Lyman 358311 158 grain bullet. 3.0 was the min load in a old Lyman manual. 3.5 was the max load.

3.0 didn't always cycle the best in my gen3 Glock but worked most the time and functioned in other guns. In the limited testing I've done accuracy was always good. These loads basically turn your 9mm into a 38 special. I'm sure someone will say it's pointless and why would you do such a thing, but it can definitely work.

Might as well agree with this, I have said it several times before as Nevada Ed isn't the first one to ask this. You want to shoot a .38 Spcl. then shoot one. At least you won't have cycling problems with the revolver.

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

A 160 grain round nose is the absolute maximum, and I'm taking about cast bullets here. Plated? I'm guessing they might raise pressure at least slightly in comparison with a cast bullet, but I'm not a ballistics expert.

With a very heavy bullet, just a slight deviation in seating depth could raise pressures to the danger point quickly. The case capacity on the 9mm is pretty well used up with a 160 grain bullet. You're also at the point of diminished returns when you consider that you may not be able to safely achieve a useful velocity for the cartridge.

I've worked with heavy bullets in the 9mm and have found a 150 grain round nose .38 Special cast bullet to be about a practical maximum weight for accuracy and velocity.

Ran across this article. Reloading Heavy Bullets in 9mm Luger - Shooting Times
Just curious, is there a specific reason or purpose for using that heavy a bullet?

Most of that article is based on QuickLOAD numbers; a crude guide at best. Not exactly what you want to be working with at the outer limit of safety, not to mention some feeble velocities. Many of the loads probably wouldn't cycle an action with 100% reliability.

How many 17 round revolvers are out there? How do you put a suppressor on a revolver? Those are just 2 of the reasons I was interested.

A lot of the guys i shoot idpa with are running 158-165. The recoil is stupid soft at 9mm minor. like shooting 38sp wc. I use WST or ReDot, but vv310 & 320 work well as do any of the faster powders, ball or flake. Accuracy in my 1911 is extremely good, but i have gone back to 147gr for 9mm minor. I just like the recoil impulse a bit better with a heavy slide. In a Glock, the 158gr + are really easy to shoot fast.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Very light recoil & almost no blast, very quiet. The affect allows extremely fast split times. In my G26, very fun to shoot.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Two reasons for bullets that heavy in 9mm :

1. Aforementioned gamer loads for minimum recoil/ flip at a specific power factor.

2. Suppressed use ( aka silencer ).


If you are doing one of those, you are purposefully seeking specialized ammo for specific purpose, and will work out those details to reach an end.

If you're not doing one of those two things, don't bother, and just use common 147gr .

Or how about simply using the same bullet for all your 38spl/357/38 super/9mm plinking needs.

Decades ago I used to cast the lyman 358311 158gr rn bullet making piles of them. I'd size them to .358" and run them in every 35cal firearm I owned.

Paper, beverage cans, shotgun shells, clay targets, dirt clods @ 10 paces or anything else couldn't tell the difference.

The one thing that grabbed my attention is the use of ball powders. They will spike when compressed, so my input would be to simply keep this in mind when working up loads. I like the short cut extruded varieties that Vihtavuori offers.

I have been loading 158 grain plated TC Extreme projectiles in 9MM Luger for about a decade now. A group of us got a stupid good deal on these but we had to buy a pallet.
The reason of course is suppressed fire.
I have been loading these 158s with 231 and getting great results. They move out at roughly 950 FPS from the handguns, just like the IMI 158s, which makes them about 100 FPS faster than the Fiocchi 158 offering.

Recently I got several thousand X-treme 165 plated RN to work with. Using a nice charge of AA#7 these are VERY quite at about 900 FPS from the hand guns. I did not chronograph any of these loads from the SMG.

I do like the Horandy 147gr. Very accurate and soft shooting. The 147 Coated (Bayou) shoot nearly the same.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Boy are you guys spoiled!!!

A Pallet load !!
Mercy.

I've found a few of my pistols wont shoot 147 gr projectiles well. ( Barrel twist rate is the suspect here.) I don't think I'd experiment with anything heavier. If I had to pick one bullet weight to feed them all, I would go with 130 gr.
Of course, your needs may vary.

__________________
Dave

Very interesting subject. Bullet weight and sectional density offer superior performance in the terminal ballistic sense, so hollow points of heavier weights could offer superior performance. It also allows the 9mm to be a better choice for some hunting, especially with a carbine, and subsonic certainly has its advantages, especially if all this talk of can restrictions being scrapped turns true instead of a fairy tail. Most of all, its fun to throw extremes at a cartridge and see what happens.

Unlike Mr. Wee Hooker, my problems have come from stabilizing 115 grain bullets in my 16 inch barrel Uzi. Since it is a strong gun, and can handle, if not prefer the higher pressure ammunition, it would be interesting to see what these big boys could do, safely maxed of course. My carbine has no recoil issues, so a stronger load would be ideal.

Heavy bullet/subsonic pistol rounds are fascinating to me, and I've had very good luck with my 45 ACP projects, throwing 255 Keith's at 1070fps and 300 grain flat nose at 950 fps out of my Tommy gun, subsonic, powerful, accurate, and pleasant to shoot. I'll have to give the Uzi a go at .355's extremes as well.

Not sure where you heard this but it is NOT a general fact but powder specific. Burn rate has a bigger affect on compression than being flake or ball or stick.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Peaked my interest now. Bet my G19 would like them as well.

I like the recoil impulse in a Glocks but in my heavy slide 1911, it feels sluggish, so back to the 147gr. The 160gr from Bayou are very accurate. Nothing wrong with the Xtreme 165gr either.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Norma reloading manual No. 1, page 98, paragraph 2, 1st sentence.

So that would be specific to Norma powders, not all ball powders. There are few general statements in reloading that follow all the variables available. You do not see this admonition in other manuals. Powder compression, in general, is burn rate & even case size specific. Just keeping it real.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Thanks all, for all the information and pictures, posted.

I don't shoot comp. any more and for some odd reason there is only one
long barrel XD9, in the whole family's arsenal.
There are 800fps loads that I have found, some accurate, some not
so it looks like I might not need to try those heavy weight bullets
out in our short barrel pistols, after all.

Thanks for the help and advise.

Actually, Norma doesn't offer a ball powder, but they are in the powder business and have earned their strong opinion on the subject. I'm just sharing published information on the subject. As real as it gets.

I understand they do not offer ball powder. What you are sharing is the opinion of the guy that put the book together. Find that opinion in ANY other reloading manual. Again, few blanket statements are true in the vast realm of reloading.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I agree, I don't know the credentials of the author, and this is certainly a hotter topic than I anticipated ... Noone else makes Norma's bold statement. The OP pondered small case volume, overweight bulluts, and ball powders, and the controversial opinion came to mind. :-)

Just about anything you put into a 9mm case with a 160gr+ bullet is going to suffer some compression, no way around it. Waaaaay too many of us doing it to believe a statement by one guy in a manual. They are guides, not bibles. Lots of nebulous statements in reloading manuals.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

"Very light recoil & almost no blast, very quiet."

not what I'd expect certainly....
interesting thread on a subject I really don't care to explore myself.

I've found I just don't care for 147g 9mm loads in any recipe I've tried, in 4 different pistols.

Given the astounding variety of unexplored recipes I've yet to get around to trying, it's nice to see what others have done.

__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas

Just curious what's wrong with 147gr ?

The 147 works great at 800-830fps with Red Dot and HS-6 for me. Unique and HS-6 will match factory fps and accuracy.

As for the compressed ball powder, thing.....

Back in 1977 the was "the complete book of practical handloading" by John Wootters.

I believe, some where in that book, the dangers of compressed loads of ball powder can be dangerous, is mentioned.
I am too old to go through the whole book to find it, if this is the book........... but I did read about this in some article, some where, in my readings, over the years.

Generally, ball powders are at their maximum, way before they get to a compressed loading. None of my 9mm or 38 special loads come close to getting near my bullets.
Now SR4756 and IMR4227 will max out in some of my 9mm loads tested but they are so slow that they only reach standard loadings, for me, if lucky..........
but w231, CFE and HS-6 are still down there, some where, in the case, with my loadings.

I actually run flakes in my 9mm ... Herco for 147gn and 800X for a compressed 124gn load. I believe it was Roy Weatherby who worked closely with Norma to develop some of the stiffest magnums we have to choose from. It would be pure speculation to assume that his R&D uncovered some unfavorable dynamics with certain powders. It would be just as plausible to assume that the negative press was simple marketing aimed at American competition. Nonetheless, the opinion is out there, and you're no stranger to it. I completely agree that faster burners will overpressure before this becomes anything to consider.

"Just curious what's wrong with 147gr ?"
not making that claim, just noting personal preference....
then again maybe the loads were just a bit on the upper end of the published range & not friendly to my use.

I've labored long & hard to get personal 9mm reloads to be reliable as well as accurate in a variety of pistols.

While not spending much range time on paper to actually SEE grouping, the 8" falling plates at 50' should help tell what I'm after.

If I can run the 6 plate rack a dozen times with 115/124 and then miss most of the next 50 shots with 147 I'm not doing something right.

What's right, is that particular batch of 147 reloads is about gone and I don't plan on getting more. Using P35/P229/PPX/ that give me otherwise great results, I'm satisfied to not take time for further exploration of 147 for my own use.

__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas

The compression issues of ball powder back then was in rifle loads & the loss of air space which could result in a hangfire or misfire. Think 458winmag & first ball powder loads.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Maybe just an issue with your exact loads. Waaay too many competition guys are running 147gr + heavier. Run at low 9mm minor vel, recoil is noticeably softer.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

"Maybe just an issue with your exact loads. Waaay too many competition guys are running 147gr + heavier. Run at low 9mm minor vel, recoil is noticeably softer". I may yet get to that approach, thanks.

Recently have been sending a lot of 10mm lead down range.

Don't want to highjack the OP thread here, other than note there are some similar fundamentals in reloading different recipes.

Given 155 RN .401 and certain recipes they shine in my own use compared to the 147 9mm or the 180g 10mm.

__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas