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  #51  
Old 01-01-2017, 12:47 PM
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How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
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Default I guess I'm just being silly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.
I thought that I made a pretty good case in spite of the pulpy gun magazines that I read. 'True Detective' is a main source of any ideas that I may have. It is highly criticizes the 9mm NATO round.

Sorry, but I like to think and experiment. I was a mechanical designer in a research laboratory. Curiosity, questioning and experimenting are part of my nature. My reloading experience has been mostly experimental. Even if it flops, at least I will be able to say that I found out.

I never said that changes in the bullet would render shot placement less important. My idea has extra weight for adequate penetration as well as making a wound channel that is close to .6" diameter.

And yeah, NATO use a 9mm 124 gr. round all of my 9mm are loaded with it. I'm not arguing with its effectiveness, just wondering if it could be made even more effective, at least for close up work.
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Old 01-01-2017, 07:04 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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Well,your question certainly did raise quite a few opinions;I bet you've reached your goal;having the subject developped.If I may add my 2 cents worth of rethorics about it...
While the debate 9mm vs .45ACP began a few decades ago,I think that both party having its advocates, we are far from seing the end of it.I remember reading about it in the early '70s and it still will get feelings flowing like hot lava!But while I admit that the expanding bullets have improved from a long way back,bullet expansion is still an ''if''thing.I mean,I shoot a .355 projectile and hope it will end up .452 or larger That speaks for itself.
Funny how people get their feelings tickled when the 9mm vs .45 question is raised but I bet that the same question slightly modified like .38 Spl+P vs .45 wouldn't probably get 33% of the same feedback..38 Spl and 9mm=same bullet diameter(.355 vs .357 I don't think it matters much).While the 9 will beat the heck out of and regular .38Spl load,the latter catches up quite rapidly with heavier bullets(158+gr).
Guess I might have opened another can of worms here....have I?
Qc

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Old 01-01-2017, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qc Pistolero View Post
Well,your question certainly did raise quite a few opinions;I bet you've reached your goal;having the subject developped.If I may add my 2 cents worth of rethorics about it...
While the debate 9mm vs .45ACP began a few decades ago,I think that both party having its advocates, we are far from seing the end of it.I remember reading about it in the early '70s and it still will get feelings flowing like hot lava!But while I admit that the expanding bullets have improved from a long way back,bullet expansion is still an ''if''thing.I mean,I shoot a .355 projectile and hope it will end up .452 or larger That speaks for itself.
Funny how people get their feelings tickled when the 9mm vs .45 question is raised but I bet that the same question slightly modified like .38 Spl+P vs .45 wouldn't probably get 33% of the same feedback..38 Spl and 9mm=same bullet diameter(.355 vs .357 I don't think it matters much).While the 9 will beat the heck out of and regular .38Spl load,the latter catches up quite rapidly with heavier bullets(158+gr).
Guess I might have opened another can of worms here....have I?
Qc
A few good worms don't make the whole can bad. In the video the 147 grain Gold Dot did expand about that big, so I'd expect that a 165 grain 'Gold Dot' could do the same thing if constructed for the job like the 'short barrel 135 gr. Gold Dots do. I see that they make and have data for a 180 gr. .38 bullet. And if what you say about heavier bullets approaching 9mm effectiveness MAY hold true for 9mm approaching the .45. So that is encouraging enough to work on this for a while.
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:39 PM
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Simplky: start with a 4
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I hope that the extra expansion from a heavier bullet that is designed to 'blow up' at that velocity will make up for bore. And pretty much limiting this to close range, SD work makes the math much easier.

I think in a battle situation it should have the effective range of a .45, being that it's moving at the same velocity and it's only proportioned a little longer than a typical bullet. i think that the long 'waterline' should actually help. That's a good point though. If this is viable, it would be cool to work out the SD and BC. Most importantly I expect that it would be effective in practical, real life encounters.

I should be able to work out a profie fairly easily. And make it look like a Gold Dot in the nose.
BC isn't a real factor until significant range variations are part of the equation ... contact to 25Y really isn't significant as the velocity loss is within the extreme spread of most pistol loads.
Sectional density is a huge player in governing penetration.

I found three different formulas that I rendered in C++ software years ago that supposedly tried to determine the best load for a given application.
Taylor Knockout was one and two other systems ...
they may agree on things like mass, SD, velocity and bore being part of the equation, but none agree on how they are to be structured into the equation. As such, they give three different opinions.
in actual testing, one can see how they all do try to conjure up a straight answer but really end up forming an over intellectualized caliber war.
Its not unlike a Ford vs Chevy debate ...
best way to end one is to drive away in a Ferrari
While I favor 45, if the difference between them really becomes make or break ... you really need a rifle
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Old 01-01-2017, 09:55 PM
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Shoot that 9mm 147 at 1200 FPS from your 357 Sig.
Expansion should not be an issue.
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Old 01-01-2017, 10:25 PM
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Default How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.


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Old 01-01-2017, 10:50 PM
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The 9mm Luger round is questionable in stopping and killing power. But most of the negative stuff I read comes from the sandbox in close quarters when you want to dispatch the bad guy quickly. It takes multiple rounds.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.

Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.

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Old 01-01-2017, 11:02 PM
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What someone said about using the 357 Sig. You can get the velocity you need with heavier bullets. But with the original 9mm..agin the laws of physics kinda interfere. The case is so small it is hard to generate the velocities with a heavy bullet in the 9. If it was such a GREAT idea don't you think the ammo companies would have already done it. To get a good heavy bullet in the 9 to work the way you want it to..some things would have to be changed. I'm not saying it can't be done..I'm just saying it hasn't been done by the people who could make money out of the idea. And if the 45 is as bad as so many people want to think it is...why compare the 9 to it?? I have some +P rated 45 factory ammo that does what you all are trying to get the 9mm to do in spades. Physics still raises it's head again with the increase in recoil factor. If I have to shoot the 9 it is going to be with a factory 147 gr HP like the Federal or something with the Gold Dot(a very good bullet IMO). Seriously..if what we all might like to have with the 9mm was possible don't you think it would already have been done? Either it isn't safely possible or not economically feasible. The 10mm is a good round as is the 40 S&W...but they were developed for a perceived problem that was flawed from the beginning. So here we are today with two stepchildren. Gonna make another? Just trying to be the devil's advocate.
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:50 PM
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If the FBI standardized BB pellet air guns tomorrow we would get a big promotional work about how the low recoil and large capacity would make it the theoretical best choice out there, and gets rid of all that risk of under penetration. If they switched to 500 S&W tomorrow, we'd get a big press statement about its superior killing power and ability to pierce the armor or terrorists and hard barriers. The FBI's real reasoning won't be released, you'll get a press release that satisfies people. The new round is going to be perfect, all others are poor choices. So those statements aren't worth as much as one would think.

Besides, the 9mm Luger fanbois, man on this forum, sat around and called the FBI terrible, terrible names for decades after replacing the 9mm Luger. 9mm bois hated the FBI, called them no nothings, desk jockeys, said the choice to go 40 was political, backwards, stupid. The MOMENT they went back to 9mm, suddenly the bois said "The FBI is the world's most prominent law enforcement agency,and their word is FACT", a turnover that took about all of 1/2 of a second. You can't have ti both ways.

When the 9mm was doing better in the junks science 20% gel tests of the 70's and early 80's, gel tests were irrefutable FACT. The second that they fixed the gel tests to 10% with better criteria and other calibers did better than 9mm, then suddenly "Those are just a bunch of idiots with jello blocks". You can't have it both ways.

When 9mm was touting superior expansion with high velocity early hollow points, its high expansion was a sign of its vast superiority. Now that 45 ACP hollow points in slow 230 grain offerings are offering superior damage in greater expansion and better, repeatable penetration, suddenly terminal ballistics doesn't matter and superior wound channels are worthless. Imagine that.

The 9mm is inferior terminal ballistics wise, that's fact. Optimized, the heavier bullet at same energy will end up pushing a wider faced expanded bullet deeper. Just like they've been doing since the big hit job to make 45 look bad to push a new caliber nobody wanted decades ago, 9mm doesn't actually stand on any one point to make a point, it just keeps changing goal posts, outright lying, junk science, and most tellingly, contradicting itself every 2 seconds when results change. Anyone who does that is not being objective and scientific, they are just trying to push a bias against all reason.

When the 5.7 was going to replace the 9mm, suddenly we got to see this whole thing play out again: the 5.7 was better than the 9mm because it had lower recoil, higher capacity, better hard barrier penetration, and of course, by the very logic of the 9mm crowd used to replace the 45 ACP. Suddenly instead of old GI's defending the 45 on the basis of heavier bigger caliber is better, the 9mm people, now the old guys in military and law enforcement, were the old fogies shaking their canes at the kids and using the same exact arguments the 45 people used against the 9mm. it was a repeat of the 70's all over again, and the same young bucks were now the old stalwarts. What irony. What a joke.

45 fan bois are pukish people. But no rabid fan base in this field is worse the 9mm bois. Little better than North Korea is best Korea nonsense; the 9mm has the BEST terminal performance, even as good or better than 357 magnum or 45 ACP, 9mm has BEST penetration, 9mm has BEST capacity, of course, when smaller calibers can do those better, sundenly a slower heavier 9mm is better. Why? Because of any real proof or reason? No. Because 9mm is best. BEST. No matter what. And we can rationalize it no matter what. Because 9mm is BEST. Repeat that. Again and again.

Kanew paddle wrote on here some time that 115 +p+ was just as good as 357 Magnum. That was when I realized that there is no objectivity or honesty in any of this. 9mm is BEST. You can't argue against that. its inferior ballistics are now superior. The 9mm magically hast he recoil of 9mm low target loads yet the power of a +P+ load. Absolute truth doesn't matter. We'll just take every other caliber and magically negate its actual ability while magically stretching the ability of the cartridge we like. We close the very real gaps. Magically. By just saying close enough, then implying the gaps don't matter, or say "even with the gaps its better anyways". Because 9mm is BEST. And no amount of anything can change our preconceived notion, because we only come to argue and win over people our preconceived notion.

I come to boards for a lot of good information, which there is a lot of. But there is a lot of this is a big farce, and you can only come here to chuckle. Indeed, these boards amuse me greatly.
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Old 01-02-2017, 12:43 AM
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Default That's what I decided.....

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Originally Posted by venomballistics View Post
Its not unlike a Ford vs Chevy debate ...
best way to end one is to drive away in a Ferrari
While I favor 45, if the difference between them really becomes make or break ... you really need a rifle
I came to the same conclusion about the Miami shoot out. It started tremendous caliber wars that ended up waffling between at least three cartridges when what the agents really needed was a rifle.
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Old 01-02-2017, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by eahicks View Post
Do what I do... carry with Liberty Civil Defense rounds, 2000 fps, 450 ft lbs....blows a 3.5" hole and doesn't penetrate past 12". All with a 50 gr. Copper bullet.


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Well, there's something new for you. it must be a small rail gun.

One that really made even me look askance is the one with the bullet shaped like an impeller to increase hydrostatic pressure shock.
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Old 01-02-2017, 01:30 AM
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. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
'True Detective' is a main source of any ideas that I may have. It is highly criticizes the 9mm NATO round.
Sorry, but I like to think and experiment. I was a mechanical designer in a research laboratory. Curiosity, questioning and experimenting are part of my nature.
And yeah, NATO use a 9mm 124 gr. round all of my 9mm are loaded with it. I'm not arguing with its effectiveness, just wondering if it could be made even more effective, at least for close up work.
True detective? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume you're joking :-) If you want to use your design
experience to make 9mm ball more effective for close up
work then then learn from history and the Government military
ammo designers around the world. Create a 9mm 124 gr FMJ
design that tumbles in soft tissue quicker than the current
design. A 124 gr 9mm FMJ bullet is a good bit longer than
.45" I do believe.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:16 PM
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The 9mm Luger round is questionable in stopping and killing power. But most of the negative stuff I read comes from the sandbox in close quarters when you want to dispatch the bad guy quickly. It takes multiple rounds.
The 9mm will never match the stopping power of the 45acp. I feel when in doubt if I second guess myself I ccw the 357,41,44 magnum. When your life depends on stopping power offer the bad guy the very best.

Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.
Except you are talking ball ammo. A jhp hitting 60cal. Doesnt really matter where it started.
FWIW, wet sand testing tells you little about a bullets ability to expand in flesh. Wetpack or bal gel are really the only semi valid testing medium. Even water isnt correct.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:20 PM
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I came to the same conclusion about the Miami shoot out. It started tremendous caliber wars that ended up waffling between at least three cartridges when what the agents really needed was a rifle.
Or just shoot better under stress. Itwas as much a training/skill failure as 9mm bullet failure.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:25 PM
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. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.
The 38sp+p with 158gr lswchp is an acceptably fighting round. Putting the same design into a 9mm would yield slightly less vel, so not seeing how it could improve on something like the 147gr hst +p currently made in 9mm. I'm still in favor of a good 124gr jhp at 1250fps. If the bullet is designed well. It will reach desired penetration with decent 50-60cal expansion.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:42 PM
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The little bullet going fast, big bullet going slow argument started in 1896 after the Army replaced the 1873 single action Peacemakers in 45 Colt with the new double action Model 1896 Colt 38. Due to failures to stop, the Army re-issued the 45 Col Peacemakers. The results from 1904 Thompson-LeGarde tests and the 1907 Pistol Trails reinforced the big bullet performance. (PM me with your email if you'd like copies of these historical documents. Warning: The Thompson-LeGarde Tests are gruesome.)

An interesting side note, the attached 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter supports the little bullet theory. Of course to write this letter Special Agent J.M. Keith had to ignore the results of the Thompson-LeGarde tests and the Pistol Trails as well as the 1911 45 ACP World War I track record. And he cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. Might want to convert 158 grams and 200 grams into pounds.

After 40 years the ammo manufacturers have developed 9mm cartridges that meet the 1975 (updated in 1985) National Institute of Justice's Relative Incapacitation Index findings. A study based on hypothetical assumptions and a computer-generated man and rated the 115-grain, 9 mm FMJ round twice as effective as a 230-grain .45 ACP FMJ.

So what's this all mean. You can find lots of information to support your side of the 121 year argument... and carry the round you trust and are most comfortable with.
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:35 PM
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The little bullet going fast, big bullet going slow argument started in 1896 after the Army replaced the 1873 single action Peacemakers in 45 Colt with the new double action Model 1896 Colt 38. Due to failures to stop, the Army re-issued the 45 Col Peacemakers. The results from 1904 Thompson-LeGarde tests and the 1907 Pistol Trails reinforced the big bullet performance. (PM me with your email if you'd like copies of these historical documents. Warning: The Thompson-LeGarde Tests are gruesome.)

And interesting side note, the attached 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter supports the little bullet theory. Of course to write this letter Special Agent J.M. Keith had to ignore the results of the Thompson-LeGarde tests and the Pistol Trails as well as the 1911 45 ACP World War I track record. And he cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. Might want to convert 158 grams and 200 grams into pounds.

After 40 years the ammo manufacturers have developed 9mm cartridges that meet the 1975 (updated in 1985) National Institute of Justice's Relative Incapacitation Index findings. A study based on hypothetical assumptions and a computer-generated man and rated the 115-grain, 9 mm FMJ round twice as effective as a 230-grain .45 ACP FMJ.

So what's this all meammn. You can find lots of information to support your side of the 121 year argument... and carry the round you trust and are most comfortable with.
Well not unlike global warming computer models, you can configure the model to achieve a desired result. Years of military conflict i believe shows 9mm ball to be slightly inferior to 45, not twice as effective. Computer models alWays seem to ignore history. Totally agree with your final statement.
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:35 PM
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Default I MAY....

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. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this. ( per #1 post )

Actually the 158gr plated RN is the largest bullet that fits in the 9mm case with a maximum seating of .300", if used.

Some 165gr bullets are .733" in length and need 1.185" OAL for safe case pressures.
Plus I don't see where the little 9mm case would gain that much with the added 10grs of weight.

Then there is getting the lead soft enough and the jacket thin enough to expand at 850fps out of a 4" barrel or less.

I am waiting to see how the 158gr Fiocchi does, if used enough or put to the gel test and posted on youtube.
I'll be looking forward to that. I MAY stop short of 165, I mainly want a heavier bullet than is out there. I just figure that it needs to do 830 or better. And yeah, COAL and bullet depth are big consideration. I'll probably seat them out as much as possible until I get a handle on what's going on. And if Fiochi has a 158 I'd like to look at it myself, because it may save some incremental steps before I get to the UNKNOWN.

I worked 14 hours today trying to replace front doors to the point where I could secure them. Not much time for dreaming and testing today.
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:53 PM
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Default Whether it' aided by a computer or not....

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Well not unlike global warming computer models, you can configure the model to achieve a desired result. Years of military conflict i believe shows 9mm ball to be slightly inferior to 45, not twice as effective. Computer models alWays seem to ignore history. Totally agree with your final statement.
... The proof is only in the pudding. If it works, great. If not back to the old drawing screen.

PS: I haven't use drawing board in 30 years. You couldn't drag me back to one.
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Old 01-03-2017, 12:03 AM
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All the debate and dispute over caliber, bullet weight and such reminds me of a quote by Allen Iverson........

"When you are not practicing, someone else is getting better."
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Old 01-03-2017, 12:24 PM
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What someone said about using the 357 Sig. You can get the velocity you need with heavier bullets. But with the original 9mm..agin the laws of physics kinda interfere. The case is so small it is hard to generate the velocities with a heavy bullet in the 9. If it was such a GREAT idea don't you think the ammo companies would have already done it. To get a good heavy bullet in the 9 to work the way you want it to..some things would have to be changed. I'm not saying it can't be done..I'm just saying it hasn't been done by the people who could make money out of the idea. And if the 45 is as bad as so many people want to think it is...why compare the 9 to it?? I have some +P rated 45 factory ammo that does what you all are trying to get the 9mm to do in spades. Physics still raises it's head again with the increase in recoil factor. If I have to shoot the 9 it is going to be with a factory 147 gr HP like the Federal or something with the Gold Dot(a very good bullet IMO). Seriously..if what we all might like to have with the 9mm was possible don't you think it would already have been done? Either it isn't safely possible or not economically feasible. The 10mm is a good round as is the 40 S&W...but they were developed for a perceived problem that was flawed from the beginning. So here we are today with two stepchildren. Gonna make another? Just trying to be the devil's advocate.
I didn't say it was a GREAT idea, but it is an interesting idea. And yeah, I wonder the same things. Has anybody not gone that way because they've tried it and it doesn't work, or just figured it was a stupid idea, or that it just wouldn't sell. The things is that I 'think' it would work, but I don't really know. This wouldn't be a stepchild caliber, it's a plain, common, cheap 9mm. And the Sig has been out there but it's not in common use. I wonder what it is about it? Too expensive? People don't want a bottleneck pistol cartridge? The round is as big as a .40? Maybe that has something to do with it. it may be a compressed load. But yeah, that little 9mm case fills up a LOT faster than a .38. I One thing I have in my favor is that bigger bullets take less powder than their smaller, faster velocity counterparts.

What's not in my favor is that in the small case, the pressure may build exponentially and really draw the line. The 158 grain that is already manufactured, isn't a common or popular round, so that indicates that this wouldn't be all that popular, which is probably why companies don't produce this round.

Anyway, if it proves to be useless, impractical or impossible at least we'll know.
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Old 01-03-2017, 12:54 PM
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The simple answer to the OP's question is, you can't.

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Old 01-03-2017, 02:08 PM
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But yeah, that little 9mm case fills up a LOT faster than a .38. I One thing I have in my favor is that bigger bullets take less powder than their smaller, faster velocity counterparts.

What's not in my favor is that in the small case, the pressure may build exponentially and really draw the line. The 158 grain that is already manufactured, isn't a common or popular round, so that indicates that this wouldn't be all that popular, which is probably why companies don't produce this round.

Anyway, if it proves to be useless, impractical or impossible at least we'll know.
This part of the post is the most relevant. I think what was proposed is possible. Is it a worthwhile idea. Maybe not. With all the niche companies and the big ones too there would be loads commercially available. The small 9mm case and the length of the magazines conspire against heavy long bullets in the caliber. The debate on the 9mm and 45 has been raging for decades(well maybe not raging). If it were economically and physically possible it would already be done. Develop a new case and a new gun or two do some realistic work and you could get the 9mm to almost equal the 45 loaded with the same style bullets at about the same velocity. Again physics raises it's ugly head. Remember the Winchester 9mm mag?? it could maybe be used as a basis for this. But then again..they made the 45 Win Mag at the same time. I'm not saying the 9mm is useless. I'm just saying anything you do to the 9mm to make it more effective and "equal" the 45 can also be done to the 45 to make it a "better" round. The debate will still continue. Part of the biggest problems facing both is the fact that because of the Geneva Convention militaries have to use FMJs. The 9 will never be able to equal anything larger with those restrictions. But then again..the 45 is hampered by the same rules. Which raises some questions about modern warfare I think I want to address in a different post
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:39 AM
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Default I'm not really indulging in caliber wars......

I didn't say it would be as good or better than a .45, but the philosophy behind the idea of the .45 obviously works and works well and maybe that same philosophy would make a 9mm CLOSER to what a .45 does that would make it a more effective round than it already is.

I guess I'm a little different from most reloaders. I do have pet rounds that I've loaded repeatedly, but a lot of my time is testing new rounds just to see how they shoot. It is also economical, and I use .30 110 gr carbine bullets in my rifle because they are cheap as dirt. I'm on a tight budget and can't buy a gun for every kind of shooting I want to do.

Believe me, I'm not planning on giving up my 124 XTPs any time soon unless something is proven all the way to doing a great job in the field. Even that is a choice, as would probably be any new combo that came in the picture, many people wouldn't buy it, as the 158 gr. 9mm isn't a hot seller. Like many other people, I compromise and try to stay away from 115 and 147 grain jhps unless for a special purpose. Though I'm a middle of the road guy, my alter ego wants to explore the edges.

I've made extremely reduced 30-06 because they are fun as the dickens to shoot, and an extremely soft 9mm to introduce my wife to the 9mm. In that case was a heavy (147 grain) bullet for various reasons, including operating the action. I was suggested to me to try reduced (well under the book) loads of Acc #7. Besides working like a champ in producing a soft and reliable round, it was an amazingly accurate combination. People might say, well go get a 6mm rifle but that isn't getting the full range of potential out of any gun. It doesn't cost me anything to make the kinds of rounds I want to shoot out of any gun.

As has been said, yeah, the 9mm may well be self limiting. But I want find out where that limit is in getting a heavy projectile to go at least 830 fps out of a typical 9 mm gun without overloading it beyond the range that it was designed for. It may not even be a '+P' type round.

I'd like to thank everybody again who participated, lent ideas and gove thoughts on possible limitations, even acceptance by the industrly. I think we've beat it as far as we can until we get some data. If you have a brainstorm, though, don't hesitate to bring it up. =8^ )
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:16 AM
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Default Well somebody has been here...

I found reloading data for 165 grain X-treme bullets:

Power pistol - 4.2 grain at 34,686 psi (estimated) for 851 fps

Accurate #7 - 5.3 grains at 32,683 psi (estimated) for 894 fps

This suggests that a slightly heavier bullet with Acc #7 powder could get the 830 fps velocity that I'm looking for.

The doesn't address the TYPE of bullet that would easily expand at that velocity.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:55 AM
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Right now I can only find three 165gr factory loadings.

Double Tap: 165gr JHP at +/- 900fps depending on...... (Midway)

Freedom Munitions: 165gr RN at a published 800fps.

United Nations ammo: 165gr ball, 850fps c/o a 5" barrel, but.....
ammo comes in a GI can of 1,000.

For a quick test, the Freedom RN might be the way to go, for
your pistol.

The main thing with the 165gr bullet is its ogive and over all length,
which has a lot of bearing on what the OAL can be and if it will work in your pistol and magazine.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:47 PM
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Special Agent J.M. Keith's 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. This means his 158 gram 38 Special round would weigh in at just over one third of a pound (0.3483268 lbs.) and his 200 gram 45 APC bullet will weigh almost half a pound (0.44 lbs.).

Based upon the FBI's firearms/ammo selection track record, many people, myself included, don't have much faith in their decisions.

And what's sad is, what the FBI does is copied by hundreds, if not thousands, of local law enforcement agencies.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:27 PM
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Default You think that report is faulty?

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Originally Posted by S&W HE View Post
Special Agent J.M. Keith's 1933 Bureau of Investigation letter cites bullet weight in grams, not grains. This means his 158 gram 38 Special round would weigh in at just over one third of a pound (0.3483268 lbs.) and his 200 gram 45 APC bullet will weigh almost half a pound (0.44 lbs.).

Based upon the FBI's firearms/ammo selection track record, many people, myself included, don't have much faith in their decisions.

And what's sad is, what the FBI does is copied by hundreds, if not thousands, of local law enforcement agencies.
I'd say a 1/2 lb. bullet at 850 fps would knock the stuffings out of somebody and would knock the stuffings out of the shooter too.

You really caught me off guard. I was casually reading through your post and WHAAAAAA????

One thing the FBI considers that doesn't much apply to us is car door penetration. Even with good data you have to take it with a grain of rock salt.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:47 PM
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I have always liked my 9mm's better than my 45's.
The 9 is lighter so I can carry more of them and hide them better. And the gun the shoots them is smaller.
Oh, and they cost less.
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:04 PM
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...Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!
Still tough to miss fast enough to win, regardless of caliber.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:52 AM
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Default Well, with this info.....

With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:45 AM
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Default I read that....

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T

Don't underestimate the 1911/45acp loaded with those Speer 200gr jhp soup bowel hollow points. I did a lot of wet sand testing before I pick a round to carry.
I read that the idea behind the Gold Dots was a semi wadcutter with a huge hole they referred to as the 'flying ashtray'.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:18 AM
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With this info I can go right into terminal testing. I've seen a recipe for cheap ballistic gelatin somewhere. And if I get the xtreme plated 165 grain jobs, I'll have to modify the noses to approximate an expanding round. Oh boy, have we got fun?
X-Treme offers a double plated 165 grain hollow point that I use in my 10mm loads. I don't use the HP bullet in the 40 because my "hot" loads are under 1200 fps and a HP bullet is not needed to shot cardboard or steel.

Assuming your discussing the 10mm short (40 S&W) loadings, here's one of my favorites:

Pistol: Para Ltd 40/6 / 5.0" Barrel
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullet: X-Treme 165 gr. P-RNFP / 1.125" OAL
Powder / Charge: Accurate #7 / 9.2 grains (9.3 Max)
Primer: Federal 200
Brass:: A-USA
Chrono: Ave: 1160 fps ES: 33 SD: 12
Comment: Very little 40 S&W "Snap"

Suggestion: Spend some time here. Check out their methods and results. My 45 ACP carry load for the 3.0" 25 ounce 1911 is included and this data reinforced my tests as well as other available info.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:29 PM
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A few good worms don't make the whole can bad. In the video the 147 grain Gold Dot did expand about that big, so I'd expect that a 165 grain 'Gold Dot' could do the same thing if constructed for the job like the 'short barrel 135 gr. Gold Dots do. I see that they make and have data for a 180 gr. .38 bullet. And if what you say about heavier bullets approaching 9mm effectiveness MAY hold true for 9mm approaching the .45. So that is encouraging enough to work on this for a while.
Well,considering jacketted bullets,I must admit that I don't have experience enough to discuss the matter.I guess on that one I must concede.
Cast bullets,which are the only projectiles I use(and never happened to use them in sd I must add)have more penetration.I will not indulge with expansion experience about cast vs jacket bullets since I do not have any scientific or ''from the bottom of my pants''experience with jacketed bullets.I'm a firm believer of
A)penetration
B)by a large bullet
C)that will exit so as to dump as much blood from both ends of the wound.
The 9 is a good penetrator,being smaller than the .45(all else being equal)But it is the nose shape that counts;a large nose SWC in .38(like the Keith,Thompson or better,hard cast WC bullet) will do more damage.
Please read me right;the 9 is good but still only a 9mm or only as good as a .38 Spl +p or +p+ depending on the weight of the bullet.
But you could blame me of being a large caliber lover and to this,I could only bow down and thank you for.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:38 AM
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Default Usually over penetration is undesireable....

If you shoot through a perp in a defensive situation you may hit somebody behind the perp that you don't want to.

This to me is kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach. While having enough weight for good penetration and the ballooning design increases the diameter of the wound channel. 135 gr. Gold Dots are designed to expand at the 830 fps I'm looking for in 'my' bullet/cartridge combination. A heavy bullet designed to do the same i believe would be devastating. Kind of a 'best of both worlds' approach, or maybe a 'not as good as either cartridge' approach.
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Old 01-26-2017, 02:37 AM
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Default i ordered some 165 gr bullets......

......from XTREME. The are plated RN. First I'm going to do load/velocity testing.

I all is well, then I'm going to modify the bullets this way.

Flatten the nose into a meplat

Drill a hole in the center

Cut the meplat into sections with a razor knife.

Score the sides of the ogive in a similar way to JHPs to try to get some controlled expansion.

Shoot them into gelatin. I'm not as interested in denim/clothing at this stage as much as penetration/expansion.

I'll leave some unmodified and maybe add the HP, meplat cuts, ogive cuts as I get some idea of performance. This is going to be a long term project.
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:58 PM
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Groo here
How to make a 9mm match a 45 acp?
The answer is ------ It depends!!!!!!!
What do you want it to do?
Damage the same amount of tissue?
A deep driving bullet that opens to at least .45 in.
Stop an attacker?
Much different mechanics.
The way many stops happen is by nerve damage.[AKA PAIN]
The 45 causes more pain because it damages more nerves.
The most in skin, next muscle, a little in organs ,next to none in bone.
The 45 acp driver a .45 hole through all.
A 9mm starts at .355, then a controlled opening to max opening.
As the bullet is rotating at many 1000 rpm the largest opening pettel
will control the damage till the rotation slows down.
The 9mm will damage [touch] fewer nerves than the nonexpanding 45.
Less shock [AKA PAIN} but the expanding 9mm may damage more
tissue [AKA BLEEDING].
Pain convinces you to stop, bleeding make you faint.
This is why the 357 125gr SJHP remington load worked so well.
The speed at impact caused the nose to blow off [With in the first 1/2 in or so] the base ,now a WC of about 100gr , would continue on causing
a deep wound.
Pain AND bleeding.
To make a 9mm work like a 45, load it like a 357.......

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Old 01-29-2017, 10:12 PM
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My P227 SAS with Underwood 45 +P. I doubt any 9mm even in an AR hits like this. Now if I could just hit what I aim at. 😜
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:05 AM
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The way that I look at it is it like dropping a baseball or a bowling ball on your foot.

One has mass and a huge amount of knock down power.....

the smaller comes with 15 to 19 energy pills.

Either will ruin your day......... but no the 9mm 158gr bullet is
the only bullet short enough for a correct OAL in its short case.
This means it will never get close to a 200gr plus bullet that a .45 can swallow.
Close but no touch down.........
but I still love my 147gr HST in my C9 !!
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:41 AM
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Default Well, I did just receive....

....some 165 grain bullets that I can start with. The are plated X-treme RN. I like the profile of the nose and even though the bullets are LONG, I think I can get an appropriate amount of Power Pistol or Acc #7 in them and keep within the 1.65" max. One thing in my favor is that the heavier bullets use LESS powder than light bullets. I also have the option of compressed loads. Also, that I can flatten the nose into a meplat enough to drill them to HPs to get some idea of terminal performance, which will also shorten the length some. As soon as I get a chance, I'll post some pictures and get to the range for some velocity data. Boy, am I excited to have a project like this. Later I'll make some gelatin and get the results from that.

Signed, Your Ever Optimistic Experimenter.

PS: The question remains. Which pistols will such bullets actually operate in?
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Old 02-07-2017, 03:40 AM
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Default How I would tackle that.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
True detective? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume you're joking :-) If you want to use your design
experience to make 9mm ball more effective for close up
work then then learn from history and the Government military
ammo designers around the world. Create a 9mm 124 gr FMJ
design that tumbles in soft tissue quicker than the current
design. A 124 gr 9mm FMJ bullet is a good bit longer than
.45" I do believe.
A jacketed bullet with a wedge slice out of the lead about halfway down the bullet. On impact the bullet bends into a 'boomerang' shape. Manufacturing would be tricky, but manageable

Another approach would be to have the nose jacket collapse into a wedge shape. This would be easier to make.

Or maybe design a HP with cuts that will only allow half of the nose to expand. The asymmetry should result in a tumbling bullet.

Maybe one day we can look into that.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:39 AM
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Default Early on I pretty much indicated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groo01 View Post
Groo here
How to make a 9mm match a 45 acp?
The answer is ------ It depends!!!!!!!
What do you want it to do?
Damage the same amount of tissue?
A deep driving bullet that opens to at least .45 in.
Stop an attacker?
Much different mechanics.
The way many stops happen is by nerve damage.[AKA PAIN]
The 45 causes more pain because it damages more nerves.
The most in skin, next muscle, a little in organs ,next to none in bone.
The 45 acp driver a .45 hole through all.
A 9mm starts at .355, then a controlled opening to max opening.
As the bullet is rotating at many 1000 rpm the largest opening pettel
will control the damage till the rotation slows down.
The 9mm will damage [touch] fewer nerves than the nonexpanding 45.
Less shock [AKA PAIN} but the expanding 9mm may damage more
tissue [AKA BLEEDING].
Pain convinces you to stop, bleeding make you faint.
This is why the 357 125gr SJHP remington load worked so well.
The speed at impact caused the nose to blow off [With in the first 1/2 in or so] the base ,now a WC of about 100gr , would continue on causing
a deep wound.
Pain AND bleeding.
To make a 9mm work like a 45, load it like a 357.......
Your first and second points are the answer. Use the increased mass to penetrate and have plenty of material to blow up to at least .45" dia. as long as the bullets are made to expand at 840 fps.

I've got the 165 gr bullets and I want to form a meplat both to reduce overall length and provide a flat for drilling a hollow point.

165 grains may be the max, though I havn't proved that. The reason is that with the recommended Acc#7 load, I think I'm going to have to compress the load. Heavier bullet need less powder, true, but this is a BIG bullet and I doubt any heavier will be serviceable. I do have the Power Pistol powder that I haven't tried to seat the bullet with. It may be better than the Acc 7 powder.

Problem: These 'Xtreme' Bullets are also extremely HARD. Their site says 18 brin. I tried to flatten the nose of one of the bullets but it didn't work at all. Like trying to flatten a steel bullet.

Well, I'm going to make up a few and take them to the range for velocity testing at least.

PS. I just had a barnstorm. I was getting ready to prime the cases and I thought that maybe I can reduce the volume of the powder by using magnum primers.
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Old 02-13-2017, 03:07 PM
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The 10mm was a great round with a 180gr +/- at around 1280fps
and in a G20 at 2.5lbs loaded had a recoil of 10.15 lbs.
This heavy recoil with some of the "light framed" FBI agents, had
problems controlling this loading. One reason it was passed on.

The 40 s&w in a G22 at 2.1lbs pushed a 165gr at around 1150fps
with a recoil that only had 7.30 lbs. This loading was accepted
due to the fact that it was manageable for all the shooters.

The large dia. 45 ACP in a G30 at 2.1 pounds, pushed a huge 230gr
JHP at around 900fps (+/-) and was in the middle of the 40 & 10
with a std and +P loading from 9.0 to 9.6 ft/lbs of recoil.

In a heavier all metal 1911 the recoil would be reduced by a huge amount
but I did not have time to look up the weight, of these pistols
and do a work up. Sorry.

It still comes down to what is king of the hill............
Velocity or bullet weight and the weapon used.
Later.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:19 AM
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I don't know about you guys but my head hurts! Too much thinking this early.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:20 PM
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Just to add my two bits. I solved this problem with a S&W 40c. 40 S&W in a 3.5" barrel. 11 rounds topped up and 155 grain JHPs at 1120fps. Loads are easily attainable, accurate and controllable. Greater capacity than a 45 and carries in a 9mm sized handgun. Love my M&P 45c but it is my house gun with a TLR3 light attached. The M&P40c goes with me when I'm out and about.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:21 PM
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I wish somebody would shoot something with anything....
A water filled jug or ballistic gel block or box of soaked newsprint !
Shoot something with the new and improved load so we can see what is going to happen.....the suspense is getting me !
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:05 PM
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Any further questions?
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:37 PM
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Awww, Joe. Don't let it bother ya. It's only pure physics. Do all the work..do all the math..And when all is said and done..It won't happen. I was talking to a fellow at the gun show the other day. He told me he used to carry a 10mm semi auto up in B'ar country. I commended him on carrying something worthwhile. It is the only mainstream semi auto for that purpose. He then told me he went back to a 44 mag revolver. He said he had more bang for the buck...but making a 9 perform like 45 sounds good but just won't ever do it. using the large bullet reduces speed mag primers might raise pressures even more. Trimming the meplat and hollowpointing reduces the weight and bumping the 45 to +P makes it all irrelevant..again.Yes I have a 9 or two..my wife carries a 9 when she is out and about. If I didn't think it was a useful round I wouldn't let her carry it. With such a tiny case the 9 can't do what or be made to do what a 45 can do or be made to do. Fun to try....less'n we blow up a gun. Speaking of which..fellow showed me a blown up Python the other day. 1/2 a cylinder was left and the top strap was gone. Reload with 296..1st round through the gun
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