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  #101  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:36 PM
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How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
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Default I am making bullets.....

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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
I wish somebody would shoot something with anything....
A water filled jug or ballistic gel block or box of soaked newsprint !
Shoot something with the new and improved load so we can see what is going to happen.....the suspense is getting me !
I'm making the bullets right now. I just stopped to double check my reloading data. I decided to use magnum primers and drop the loads back .2 grains. While I'm doing this, I'm thinking when this week I can get out to the range. I have a Chrono but I don't have ballistics gel (yet) and I'll have to find something semi solid to shoot. However, I have not yet been able to modify the bullets to the flat nose hollow point that I'm thinking of, because the bullets are so dam hard!!!


I'll just have to do the best I can. I concede on one point. I doubt that I'll be able to do a round any heavier than the 165 grain. The case capacity does seem to be the limiting factor. I would still like to theoretically figure out IF a heavier bullet would could fit the action of a 9mm and still attain the required velocity.

You guys have got me on the .40 being probably better at what I'm proposing performance wise. I like 9mms for many reasons and I'm going to test the water to milk what can out of a 9mm.

Disclaimer: At NO time during this discussion did I suggest that any bullet design could replace placement as the most important factor in an SD situation. Getting better placement is up to the individual learning and practicing. I'm working on a hardware problem.

I was working on triple taps (about 5 sets) the other day at five yards with my new Sig bringing the gun up from the bench height. Starting shooting while trying to find the front sight is a real trip. Though my patterns were loose, all shots went in the 'dead zone', so I hope I can improve on placement and distance with practice.
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  #102  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:10 AM
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What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:21 AM
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Default Help me out with a soft target....

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Originally Posted by bronco45 View Post
What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.
The velocity is lower than typical 9mm rounds. I don't expect the recoil to be that much different. You guys do have a point with using a .40, it's just that I want to do it with a 9mm because they are accepted as a standard round everywhere, even by me.


Now I need help. This is progressing much faster than I thought it would. Since I don't have means of making gelatin (at all, must less quickly) I need a target I can take to the range that will at least retain the rounds for inspection.

I was thinking plastic buckets full of building sand and maybe some water jugs set in a line. Does anybody have better ideas?

Ok, Here are the rounds I've made for velocity testing. They progress from 3.5 grain of Power Pistol to 4.3 grains. OAL is 1.15". (Sounds like a good start) I'm going to have to plunk test these but they look fine.


I managed to start to modify some of the bullets by putting them in a bench vise (!). They have an app. 1/4" meplat. I will center punch, drill a HP and score the plating. (NICE plating on those Xtreme bullets). The dia. of the bullet shank is still .355". An added plus of having a meplat is that now the bullets are .685" long instead of .734". As I get into this I will have a little more headroom on the OAL. One problem is that I don't want to lose much weight and end up with a 158 gr HP. So I'll have to be skimpy on how much I drill out, which will also affect terminal ballistic performance. I wonder if I can find some 165 gr. HP bullets that are already formed???? Anyway, here they are:


PS: The noses of the finished rounds are flat because I used a flat seating punch to try to start getting a little meplat. Like I said, these goobers are hard as a brickbat.
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  #104  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:42 AM
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I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.
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  #105  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:51 AM
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38 Super seems to be what you seek.
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  #106  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:20 AM
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Default Will they need?

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Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.
That's a great idea. Wouldn't the bullets need sizing? I guess 'big' is what I'm going for in stretching the 9mm bullet weight to the max while still retaining adequate velocity. I 'theorized' that the bullet could get even heavier, but the 165 gr. are the closest thing available.

Oh, actually the bullets are RN. Yeah, it's gonna take some work, but I'm treating this like a long term project and 'curious minds want to know'.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.
I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm
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  #108  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post

Any further questions?
That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
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  #109  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:51 AM
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Default Now that's funny......

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That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
The old "Delta Rocket System" approach.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:55 AM
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Default You see my point.....

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Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm
If a lumbering 147 gr 9mm is good, maybe a 165 grain or bigger would lumber along in a good velocity range.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:19 PM
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Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:11 PM
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Default That would be like carryng....

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38 Super seems to be what you seek.
That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:31 PM
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That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.

It is what I carry.
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  #114  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:06 PM
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165 gr hollow point lead bullets 38 .357 [38-165-hp-640-358] - $12.43 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets
160gr LSWC Hollow Point 38-429 Keith Design [38-429-160--HP-358] - $12.26 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets

Take these bullets and resize them to .356 (or order them sized to .356) and load them in a 9mm. The alloy is on the harder side, like 10 BHN (hardcasts are usually 15-22).

I'm interested in where this project goes. Like the OP, I am also an engineer. I love reading and learning about all things reloading. Oh, and good data!
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  #115  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:44 PM
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Default I'll see soon....

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Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.
I'll be anxious myself, the lead will show in the drilled hole for sure. Maybe it will work enough to give us an idea even if they are 18 brinell.

I would think that around 12 brinell would be soft enough for 'mushrooming'. Do any of you casters have any ideas about that?

If this pans out I'll probably move to Franzas (tip of the hat) clue with the GT bullets. Some outfits will do some custom work, especially if you order a large enough quantity.

Of course in the future I may just get into casting, but that's putting the unpropelled wheeled conveyance in front of the equine animal.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:52 AM
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Default Ok, it's late but.....

...let me throw a few things on here. I was thinking about going to the range tomorrow, but that may be ambitious. The easiest media for me to use instead of gelatin would be milk jugs, which I have and can use, but only once, or twice if the first shot is high.

Bags of sand? Flour? Wet Flour?, Wallboard compound? pillows? What can take several shots at without going to pieces. If I can find paper, and wet it, that would probably be the most stable. I just want to make sure that I retain the bullet and get some number for penetration. Looking at the dum dums I wonder if I should at least drive a nail or something into the top of the bullet to simulate a HP?

I 'prepared' a few HP bullets from the 165 grain plated (see picture) but on weighing found that drilling a HP made the bullets weigh around 153 grains. So I flattened another batch and made 'dum dums' out of them, so the 165 gr weight is retained. I feel I mutilated them more than 'modified' them, but neither my hands or my eyes work as well as they used to. Anyway, I'm going to select a few of these to actually fire into the media.
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  #117  
Old 02-16-2017, 08:06 AM
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I like to use bundles of wet newspaper as a test medium. Cheap & easy, simply tape together 12" bundles of newspaper and put them in a cooler. Then fill the cooler with water and take the cooler to the range. Pull a bundle out of the cooler and set it up and shoot.

I like to let the bundles sit over night so they are evenly/completely soaked.

They say shooting into wet bundles of paper is = to 1 1/2 times the penetration of 10% gelatin. While people could and will argue this till the cows come home and then back out again. If you use a known bullet/load as a test you will have an idea on how to rate your findings in the newspaper bundles.

Simple things like denim or leather + tee-shirt material can be placed over the bundles. Bones can easily be placed at different depths, apples paced in the center of a 12" bundle, etc.

The other thing I like about using the wet newspaper bundles is that the layers are easily peeled back and measured. You might consider making some bundles and using some 230gr 45acp ball ammo and some 9mm xtp's and use that data as a base line to compare everything else to. There's tons of data/gel tests on both bullets out there. Chronograph your loads, measure the depths of the 9mm xtp's/45 ball and come up with a formula (example: 1" of wet paper ='s 1.3" of gelatin). And use that for all your testing.
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  #118  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:21 AM
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[QUOTE=gwpercle;139465202]I wish somebody would shoot something with anything.... /QUOTE]

How about something that bleeds?

Many years ago I lived out of town in an area surrounded by jack rabbits. This provided an excellent opportunity to test factory and hand loaded ammo from handguns and rifles.

Here's my summary of experiences with three handgun cartridges:

The 9x19mm rounds (including HPs) never stopped one unless it was a head shot. I believe they were all killed with solid body hits but they didn't know it and ran far before dying.

About 20% of the time body shots with 230 grain GI round ball 45 ACP would bowl them over and they would get up and run a ways to die.
Body shots with a 200 H&G #68 bullet at 950 fps and Sierra's 185 grain at 1000 fps were impressive.

Any 357 mag load proved devastating.

I realize these results may be sacrilege for some 9x19mm proponents but it is what happened with the ammo available at the time.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:20 PM
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GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OFT II View Post
That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
Nice job! That's tough to do and not split the brass.

I speak from experience after building 40/9mm, 45/40 and 45/38 rounds.
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:30 PM
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Default I've got data! Range Report.....

Sorry I've been out of touch but my internet was down for the fourth time in four months. The cable to my house keeps getting cut up or chewed by something.

Ok, I'm going to post this in sections and I have pictures, too.


Ballistcs test/Range report concerning "How to make a 9mm act like a .45".

Last night I looked to find who carried newsprint that I could wet and shoot through. On the way to Boggy Head Rifle Range (50 min. drive) I stopped by Office Depot to pick up some newsprint. Like everything else, you have to order it. So I asked the girl for the cheapest paper they had and got a box of copy paper for $30, which was more than I was hoping to spend but it was all set up and had a friend with me and I wanted to get some testing done. Weather conditions were PERFECT. Clear and sunny.

I had my chrono (karma from a member here) and using a Kel Tec P11 (3.1" barrel, the shortest I had), began shootng. Let me reiterate. These bullest were 29 brin. and I didn't expect to get much expansion out of them, even with my "jhp modifications", Range was between 10 and 15', a little closer than usual because I wanted my shots to be good with the Kel Tek, which is much harder to shoot as distance is increased.
Velocity Testing (fps):

First string with 3.5 grains powder 737, 716, 724
Second string with 3.7 grains powder 754, 756, 745
Third Stting with 3.9 grains of powder 786, 751, 753
Fourth String with 4.1 grains of powder Fail, 819, 827
Fifth String with 4.3 grains of powder 799, 817, 813

The target velocity wasn't reached with this load, but it close enough that by tweaking the load and using a longer barreled gun I think the goal is attainabled. With the flattened noses Accurate #7 may be able to used.

I had some problems in shooting the strings. I had a series of light strikes, some of which looked like they should have fired. I've never run into that problem with the Kel tec before, but of course when I NEED it to work..... Anyway, some of the test ammo I made was ruined but I'll try them later in a different gun to determine the problem. Also, the I loaded them to a max OAL of 1.155" when the maximum OAL for the 9mm Luger is 1.169". So I had some feeding problems. (Geez). But I did succeed in get the velocity testing done.

More to come.......
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:49 PM
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Default Range Report...Penetration testing

Ok, on to penetration testing. I 'assumed' that the paper was arranged in the box end to end, but when I broke it open it was stacked in reams, so I was shooting at it edgwise. This was not the ideal media for this at all, but it's what I had, so what the hey??? It acted about like a soft wood.
I began peeling back the damaged paper until I found each bullet. In spite of being shot on edge the paper was a tough media and I was surprised by the short pentration. Another surprise was the almost total lack of expansion in the bullets.
I used three types of bullets. A RN (unmodified) for a baseline. A couple of blunt noses with the meplat that I fashioned and some were 'dum dumed' with cuts across the flat nose. The last ones were my home-made hollow points. Nearly of this effort was for naught because only one bullet had any appreciable expansion, which gave me hope that a properly constructed hollow point would do much better. As I peeled the paper up, the vertical damage was interesting to see.


Bullet #1
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:55 PM
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Default Bullet #2

Bullet #2....
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:02 PM
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Default Bullet #3

Bullet #3....

Note the 'bite' of paper the bullet took.
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:10 PM
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Default Bullet #4

Bullets #4 and 5...

These were found at the same level.

I have bullets #6 and 7, somewhere. I'll find them and post them. In the meantime my next post will be the only bullet that expanded.
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:25 PM
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Default The only expanded bullet....

The only expanded bullet is shown here. The caliper reading isn't exact because I couldn't hold the bullet, caliper and work the camera, too. For a bullet that is as hard as a brickbat, I was surprised to get any expansion, but this one shows that the diameter of a .45 ACP FMJ bullet can be achieved.
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:36 PM
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Default Here is the grand and glorious....

....Boggy Head Rifle Range in the Francis Marion Forest. They are improving Twin Ponds but they ran out of money. Boggy Head is supposed to be upgraded at some time in the future. I liked it better when it was just tables spaced out across the grass. The thing here is ridiculously cramped. I have the one big bay at the end so all of my pistols and stuff are laid out on the end. I can't stand having a regular table there. You can also see the target box of paper on the table out a ways. The shadowy figure at the side bench is my son's friend Will, who came along to shoot and helped me a great deal getting a lot of stuff in and out of the van.

Later I shot some flour bags but didn't get any data because I had to split due to a low blood sugar attack.

Even though I shot these from the bench height, somehow I managed to put a hole through our nice folding table.

I'll post the conclusions, but I need to find pictures of bullets 6 and 7.
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:45 PM
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Default Range Report..Notes and Conclusions

Notes:
As I dug through the paper their were dozens of flakes from the jackets of the bullets spread all through the paper, even on the sheets that were untouched. I believe that as the bullet plowed through the paper some of the particles shed on the way in and 'injected' themselves between clean sheets.

Conclusions:
I don't know if 4.3 gr of Power Pistol, is really a max load. If I can increase that or perfect the Acc #7 load, the target velocity of 830 fps could most likely be attained. The velocities of 827 fps are very close to that target. So I consider velocity testing to be very nearly successful and may be improved.

Penetration. Well, the 'media' that I had available was a good bit tougher than gelatin so the actual distance penetrated was small, in the 4" to 6" range. It's a wild guess, but I would really like to test in different media to get a more real-world defense penetration of 12" to 16". Or is it 18"? I believe that this load would at least pass the minimum penetration and with proper consstruction of the bullet, would be in the 12-18" zone. What I don't know and need to find out is that if the bullets will over penetrate. Again, with a XTP or Gold Dot short barrel design it could be 'tuned to fit the needed range.

Expansion. This testing nearly completely failed to show any expansion, probably due to the very hard alloy that the bullets were made from. However the one bullet that did expand beyond 9mm had a maximum diameter of .465", which is more than the target I hoped for. I would say the with proper bullet construction the .45 expanded diameter could be met and possibly exceeded.
However, my initial assumption that bullets as heavy 180 grains is probably not able to be realized because of limitations in the case size and the max OAL of the 9mm Luger cartridge. A full load of Acc #7 powder needed to be compressed and the Power Pistol appeared to reach the base of the bullet. That is only perception but pushing the theory to the max probably won't be feasible, though it would be interesting find out how heavy of a bullet can be pushed to 830 fps in a short barreled 9mm. A longer barreled gun should be able to get more velocity than the Kel Tec, used in this test.
The original statement of "How can you get a 9mm to act like a .45" is true in terms of velocity, the expanded size being equal or larger than a FMJ .45 round, and more than likely with acceptable penetration. The only factors in which the 9mm falls short is a maximum bullet weight of 165 grains which is a good bit lighter than .45 bullets. Also, the.45 wound channel is larger before the 9mm would have a chance to expand. I would think that a 9mm bullet could be made to 'mushroom' quickly, but won't equal the entry wound of a .45.
I would have done a little more testing comparing the reloaded ammo to a commercial round, but my blood sugar was getting low and we still had to clean up to be able to leave.

Below are the flakes from the bullet plating.

That's all for tonight.. I've got a lot to catch up on with my internet being down for a while.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:44 AM
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Default Thanks....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.

Thanks. That sounds a lot closer than what I tested. I guess that's for phase II.

A soft lead bullet would be great because I'm not pushing the velocity. I'll look into it.

Well I guess I'll have to shoot up those 226 Xtreme bullets that I have left. They are great bullets so it's not a problem to me.

UPDATE: I just looked at the GT website and I really like what I see. There is a .38 caliber 165 gr HP SWC that if it could be sized down would be ideal. I could size them myself, but I'm not set up for it.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:33 AM
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just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:36 PM
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Default I have loads.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Reed View Post
just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.
I have a lot of the common sizes of bullets in different styles. But that doesn't answer my question about how the heaviest 9mm bullet would perform in an SD situation.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:51 PM
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Default Recoil.....

Someone mentioned that the recoil may be excessive.

When I did the testing with a 13 oz. Kel Tec P11, I didn't even notice the recoil.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:31 PM
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For sizing those bullets try to find one of the Lee 7/8x14 dies in 356 or maybe 357..what ever is appropriate for your guns. Looking at the velocitiees you were getting it looked like when you got to about 4 to 4.1 gr you were reaching point of no return with that gun/barrel length. a different powder may be in order or a longer bbl. I found many years ago that unless a bullet was made specifically for the way it was going to be used HPing it or even flatteniing the point didn't seem to do much for making them expand. There was at one time a bullet mold that cast a hard base and a very soft point that were then either glued together of heated somewhat to make 'em into one bullet. I had some and it seemed to work ok but it was made for the 44(in the one I had). More work than it was worth.. I have a thing you put 22 LR into and file the ends flat and with that soft lead bullet it does work very well on garden raiding wabbits...maybe something like that would work for you...Maybe 180 gr soft 38 bullets with the m sized and then filed on the end down to your weight range. Lot of work but maybe possible
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:55 AM
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Default ^^^ The Acc #7....

The Acc #7 load MIGHT give a bit more oomph, but it is bulkier and I don't think I could get a full charge in unless I flatten the tip. At least when I tried it ii would be a compressed load, which isn't awful, just more trouble. I'll be working on that. The bullets that Nevada Ed suggested may need no doctoring and they are much softer than the Xtremes that I tried. I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. I didn't make a requirement that the barrel be short, but since this is supposed to be a defensive load, the shorter barrel was more likely in a carry gun.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:53 AM
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" I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. " Quote

Ah;
you might add a very short case, also !!

Are we having fun yet ?
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:03 AM
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I was also thinking of the failures to fire..Could the bullets have been a bit large in the leade of the bbl holding them back slightly cushioning the firing pin blow just enough? I had that happen one time many moons ago with a 9mm semi auto and some reloads I had made up with lead bullets. Don't even remember what gun it was...may have been a P1/P38. Long time ago...no thinking back it was a S&W 39. Being as the 9 is not my favorite I only have 4 now..a 639 Springfield 1911 my wife's Kahr and a Ruger convertible 357/ 9mm. They all use Fed HS 147 gr except the Ruger and it is a very good load for defense if you have to use the 9mm. My wife does carry the Kahr
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:21 AM
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[QUOTE=Nevada Ed;139474235Ah;
you might add a very short case, also !!

Are we having fun yet ?[/QUOTE]

Yep capacity of the case..larger than normal weight of bullets and the fact that the 9 runs right at the top end of pressures is why I think the probability of getting the 9mm to equal the 45 is almost nil. Make the 9 better than normal??..probably with a lot of work and load development. But then do half the work with the 45 and make it better than the standard 45 too. If you could find a bullet for the 9mm that would reliably expand no matter what weight it would make the caliber a better defense round. That is why I like the 147 Hydra shock and in most guns(up to about 10 inch bbls) it is subsonic and can be suppressed. Oh I forgot...I also have a Contender 9mm 10 inch barrel.. Surprisingly accurate too. Haven't shot it in years
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:53 AM
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Default re paper

It does better when soaked. It lasts longer than other media (more hits). I get all of the newspaper I want from the local recycle center.

As stated before, you get less penetration with wet paper compared to gelatin. Other have stated it's a 1 1/2 to 1 ratio or for every 1" of penetration in wet paper ='s 1 1/2" of gelatin.

You should stand the paper up and tape it together. I typically use 10" to 12" bundles and put them in a cooler and then put water on them. I carry the whole thing to the range and take the bundles out of the cooler as needed.

Typical wet paper bundles. Did a test using some home swaged 225gr hp's for the 45acp/p+ combo's. Shot 5 rounds into the bundle at 50ft. 2 blew out the back.



Easy enough to peal the layers back to find the bullets and measure depths of the hits along with what the recovered bullets look like. The target that was placed on the front of that bundle pictured above.



Those bullets were designed to explode/frag. As you can see there's nothing left to them yet penetration was 7" to out the back of the bundle.

Take the extra time to make bundles and wet them. The end result is a better quality product. Right now the results you are getting is a result of the effort you put into making a media to shoot into.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:12 AM
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Default a fool's errand

Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.

You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.

You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+

The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.

You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:16 AM
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Default alloys for hp's

It may be over simplified but a good place to start is:

Every 100fps of velocity ='s 1bhn

If your load/bullet is doing around 800fps you need to look for a 8bhn bullet. The bullets alloy/velocities can over lap meaning you could use a 8bhn bullet for a 900fps load or a 10bhn bullet for a 900fps load.

Using this simple formula will get you in the ballpark.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:27 AM
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Default hp shapes & depths

The shape of a hp plays a huge roll in how a bullet performs. Same bullet with different hp shapes/depths.


The penta point hp is good for 800fps to 1000fps
The large round hp is good for 1000fps to 1200fps
The small round hp is good for 1200fps to 1400fps

Some different hp's for the 38spl's/357's. Just looking at them it's easy to pick out which bullets to use for low velocities and for high velocities.


The large hp's are from a custom mihec mold and are excellent in snub nosed revolvers (top row 2nd from left).
The cramer bullet (bottom row center) is a #25 from the 40's. It's called their "hunter" bullet and was designed for hot loads in the 357mag.

For slow moving bullets you want a large/wide hp with good depth. A slow moving bullet ='s under 1000fps.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:15 AM
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I have both, like both.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:19 AM
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Default Playing to the strength of your firearm

Your 9mm is a high pressure round, use bullets that allow you to benefit from that high pressure.

You're also limited by the short bbl of your firearm. The heavier the bullet the harder it is to keep the velocities up in that short bbl.

A 160gr bullet in a short bbl's 9mm doing 800fps/850fps isn't going to cut the mustard. People are getting the same things from their snub nosed 38spl's and have found that combo to be anemic.

I've done a lot of testing with short bbl'd firearms along with casting & swaging (jacketed & lead) my own bullets to test with. At the end of the day anything over 135gr's in a short bbl'd 9mm was taking away from the effectiveness of the high pressured 9mm turning it into a 38spl.

This is not a hot load by any means, a 125gr hp in a 3.2" bbl'd 9mm doing 1050fps. I've easily loaded these same bullets over 1150fps+ without using extreme loads.



7"+ of penetration in wet newpaper and over 1/2" of expansion with excellent weight retention.

Keep your eye on the prize:
Anything under 900fps is pretty much useless. The 147gr hydra-shok bullets are in that range and are borderline at best at those velocities. The only thing the hydra-shok's have going for them is the hp design that was made for low velocities. Hence 135gr hydra-shok for short bbl's (1060fps rated) and 147gr hydra-shok for standard length bbl's (1000fps rated).

Really you should be starting with light bullets, around 100gr and working your way up to the 150gr bullets testing different hp designs as you go. It's nothing to get a .355" to expand to 1/2" or better. Getting penetration with that expanded bullet in a short bbl'd 9mm is another story.

Something else to check:
Most 9mm's have oversized bbl's & even if they don't it doesn't hurt anything to use .358" lead bullets in a 9mm. I have 3 different 9mm's and 1 of them (that taurus pictured above) needs a .358" bullet (oversized bore). Got tired of loading ammo specific bullets for that pistol and .356" bullets for the other 2. Now I size/load everything .358", life is good!!! Not only is it simper to do, I can now use the same .358" bullets in the 9mm/38spl/357's. Tons of reloaders are doing the same thing over on the cast bullet website.

Jacketed bullets ='s no to .358" bullets.
lead bullets ='s yes to .358" bullets.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:46 PM
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As mentioned the primers may need a little more pressure when
being seated to stop the misfires?

You might check to see if your weapon is going all the way into Battery.
The case needs to rest on the chamber ring and if the bullet is
just a little too long it might be pushing the case back, causing problems.

Yes the 4.3grs of powder looks like it is falling off in fps.
You need more case space or a different powder to help out.

Keep on trucking........

PS;
are those pictures 640x480 ?
I usually get that and then enlarge.

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Old 02-20-2017, 02:54 PM
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Default That's a good thought.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
I was also thinking of the failures to fire..Could the bullets have been a bit large in the leade of the bbl holding them back slightly cushioning the firing pin blow just enough? I had that happen one time many moons ago with a 9mm semi auto and some reloads I had made up with lead bullets. Don't even remember what gun it was...may have been a P1/P38. Long time ago...no thinking back it was a S&W 39. Being as the 9 is not my favorite I only have 4 now..a 639 Springfield 1911 my wife's Kahr and a Ruger convertible 357/ 9mm. They all use Fed HS 147 gr except the Ruger and it is a very good load for defense if you have to use the 9mm. My wife does carry the Kahr
Good idea. I've had problems with bullets and short leades in 9mm, especially compacts. USUALLY if my guns are the slightest bit out battery, they don't fire, but this is a new scenario. I'll get a picture of the misfire cartridges. Some looked light, some looked they they were hit good. It's great that something like that would pop up when I made almost an hour trip with a limited amount of test bullets.

PS: You know, this whole thing rose up out of rejecting the light bullet/high velocity, toward the heavy bullet/low velocity side. Interesting ya'll use 147 gr. in your defense loads. Light or heavy, both will kill you dead, but I think the bigger bullet will make you deader, faster. Light or heavy, you only want so much penetration but in both you want a large wound channel, the larger the better. A bullet that is designed to expand big at velocities around 950 and give adequate penetration sounds desirable to me.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:06 PM
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Default That is exactly....

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Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
Yep capacity of the case..larger than normal weight of bullets and the fact that the 9 runs right at the top end of pressures is why I think the probability of getting the 9mm to equal the 45 is almost nil. Make the 9 better than normal??..probably with a lot of work and load development. But then do half the work with the 45 and make it better than the standard 45 too. If you could find a bullet for the 9mm that would reliably expand no matter what weight it would make the caliber a better defense round. That is why I like the 147 Hydra shock and in most guns(up to about 10 inch bbls) it is subsonic and can be suppressed. Oh I forgot...I also have a Contender 9mm 10 inch barrel.. Surprisingly accurate too. Haven't shot it in years
That is exactly what I've been trying to say.

I don't care about velocity, or weight, but what does the most damage, and I think the balance of the big 9mm at adequate velocity is better than many would think.

PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
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Old 02-20-2017, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.


You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.

@@@ I've only seen really scant data/reading on the 165 gr 9mm. I'm sure there's more out there.

You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+

@@@ I know that I can't actually equal a .45, just getting a 9mm to act like one. Your are right in that I never read that a bullet under 200 grains going 900 ft/sec is inadequate, I've seen more that field evidence shows the .38 special to be inadequate. I haven't read much of anything about the heaviest 9mms. You got me there. I guess what you end up with is a .38 special that can shoot 10-15 rounds/mag which has to be some improvement. At least over the .38 special.

The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.

@@@ Well, a lot of people carry snubs and shorter barrel 9mms so the short barrel in most carry guns is what I'm looking for. I could have used my full size Third Gen to test the rounds, but I'm considering what most people carry. Small guns. But, you know, I think this is the best argument against my 'theory' that I've heard yet.

You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.


@@@ But that wouldn't make the min. penetration requirement of 12" that I set early on. I haven't forgotten about penetration. I've said all along that a properly constructed bullet would need to be used. They make Gold Dot bullets in 135 gr. short barrel that are designed to expand at snub velocities. I'm thinking that a 160 gr version could be made. Even a decently hard HPSWC with the HP and the hardness tuned would do well I believe.
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....

I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
I wasn't using the Contender as a gun to make it perform better. I did try loading for performance back quite a few years...but to be honest it didn't gain much because the 9mm runs at about all it will do ...safely anyway. I will admit to having a couple of leaky primers and only got about 70 more FPS over safe and sane loads. Even with the Contender you can only go so far! I loaded 160 gr round nose bullets in that Contender and only got about a hundred FPS more than you have gotten. With a 10 inch bbl... safe and sane. leaky primers add 74 FPS. I actually found my records. That was using a Crony... Not sure they are the most accurate chronograph. Also today's powders seem to be better and more varied
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:45 PM
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Default Where does the energy go....

... to answer my own question I suppose some of the energy is used for cycling the action. I didn't think that it cost that much in performance because the bullet is gone before the action unlocks. Hmmmmmmm
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:07 AM
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Default Oh, I mainly meant...

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Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
I wasn't using the Contender as a gun to make it perform better. I did try loading for performance back quite a few years...but to be honest it didn't gain much because the 9mm runs at about all it will do ...safely anyway. I will admit to having a couple of leaky primers and only got about 70 more FPS over safe and sane loads. Even with the Contender you can only go so far! I loaded 160 gr round nose bullets in that Contender and only got about a hundred FPS more than you have gotten. With a 10 inch bbl... safe and sane. leaky primers add 74 FPS. I actually found my records. That was using a Crony... Not sure they are the most accurate chronograph. Also today's powders seem to be better and more varied
I mainly meant accuracy-wise. A fixed single shot barrel versus a mechanical device that takes itself apart and reassembles itself for every shot.

That's pretty good info though. Another place where theory doesn't quite hold up in the real world.
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