Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:10 AM
bronco45's Avatar
bronco45 bronco45 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Moscow, Idaho USA
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 9,619
Liked 1,696 Times in 679 Posts
Default

What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:21 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Help me out with a soft target....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bronco45 View Post
What about recoil, one of the advantages to 9 is lighter recoil. Based partly on bullet weight. Drive the weight and velocity and pressure up, recoil impulse will dramatically change. Just shoot a 40 S&W and have heavier bullet and velocity without god awful pressure peaks.
The velocity is lower than typical 9mm rounds. I don't expect the recoil to be that much different. You guys do have a point with using a .40, it's just that I want to do it with a 9mm because they are accepted as a standard round everywhere, even by me.


Now I need help. This is progressing much faster than I thought it would. Since I don't have means of making gelatin (at all, must less quickly) I need a target I can take to the range that will at least retain the rounds for inspection.

I was thinking plastic buckets full of building sand and maybe some water jugs set in a line. Does anybody have better ideas?

Ok, Here are the rounds I've made for velocity testing. They progress from 3.5 grain of Power Pistol to 4.3 grains. OAL is 1.15". (Sounds like a good start) I'm going to have to plunk test these but they look fine.


I managed to start to modify some of the bullets by putting them in a bench vise (!). They have an app. 1/4" meplat. I will center punch, drill a HP and score the plating. (NICE plating on those Xtreme bullets). The dia. of the bullet shank is still .355". An added plus of having a meplat is that now the bullets are .685" long instead of .734". As I get into this I will have a little more headroom on the OAL. One problem is that I don't want to lose much weight and end up with a 158 gr HP. So I'll have to be skimpy on how much I drill out, which will also affect terminal ballistic performance. I wonder if I can find some 165 gr. HP bullets that are already formed???? Anyway, here they are:


PS: The noses of the finished rounds are flat because I used a flat seating punch to try to start getting a little meplat. Like I said, these goobers are hard as a brickbat.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170215_000140[1].jpg (111.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 20170215_000154[1].jpg (80.3 KB, 24 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-15-2017 at 02:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:42 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,358
Likes: 3,178
Liked 12,679 Times in 5,657 Posts
Default

I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #104  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:51 AM
Fred_G Fred_G is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 334
Likes: 285
Liked 367 Times in 167 Posts
Default

38 Super seems to be what you seek.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #105  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:20 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Will they need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
I know you have the 9mm Xtreme 165gr plated FN bullets and plan to modify them but.....

if you can live with a factory 158gr bullet with a .357 dia. there
are .38 cal. JHP bullets out there, and save a lot of labor and time.

If "Big" is what you need, carry on.
That's a great idea. Wouldn't the bullets need sizing? I guess 'big' is what I'm going for in stretching the 9mm bullet weight to the max while still retaining adequate velocity. I 'theorized' that the bullet could get even heavier, but the 165 gr. are the closest thing available.

Oh, actually the bullets are RN. Yeah, it's gonna take some work, but I'm treating this like a long term project and 'curious minds want to know'.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:35 AM
caleb4387 caleb4387 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 481
Likes: 89
Liked 214 Times in 120 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.
I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:50 AM
OFT II's Avatar
OFT II OFT II is online now
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Odessa, Texas
Posts: 3,219
Likes: 4,018
Liked 3,698 Times in 1,466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post

Any further questions?
That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #108  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:51 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Now that's funny......

Quote:
Originally Posted by OFT II View Post
That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
The old "Delta Rocket System" approach.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:55 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default You see my point.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
I'd rather have a lumbering 147 grain 9mm
If a lumbering 147 gr 9mm is good, maybe a 165 grain or bigger would lumber along in a good velocity range.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:19 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,358
Likes: 3,178
Liked 12,679 Times in 5,657 Posts
Default

Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:11 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default That would be like carryng....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_G View Post
38 Super seems to be what you seek.
That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:31 PM
Fred_G Fred_G is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 334
Likes: 285
Liked 367 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
That would be like carrying a semi automatic .357 magnum. Good iidea.

It is what I carry.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #113  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:06 PM
franzas's Avatar
franzas franzas is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 587
Likes: 378
Liked 333 Times in 179 Posts
Default

165 gr hollow point lead bullets 38 .357 [38-165-hp-640-358] - $12.43 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets
160gr LSWC Hollow Point 38-429 Keith Design [38-429-160--HP-358] - $12.26 : GT Bullets!, Fine Hand Cast Lead Bullets

Take these bullets and resize them to .356 (or order them sized to .356) and load them in a 9mm. The alloy is on the harder side, like 10 BHN (hardcasts are usually 15-22).

I'm interested in where this project goes. Like the OP, I am also an engineer. I love reading and learning about all things reloading. Oh, and good data!
__________________
an actual conservative
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #114  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:44 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default I'll see soon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Well with the Xtreme bullet being just plated..............

you might end up with a lead tipped bullet when it is all done with ?
If the lead is soft enough, it might even expand....................

Hope to see some wet news paper test soon.....
or water bottles.
I'll be anxious myself, the lead will show in the drilled hole for sure. Maybe it will work enough to give us an idea even if they are 18 brinell.

I would think that around 12 brinell would be soft enough for 'mushrooming'. Do any of you casters have any ideas about that?

If this pans out I'll probably move to Franzas (tip of the hat) clue with the GT bullets. Some outfits will do some custom work, especially if you order a large enough quantity.

Of course in the future I may just get into casting, but that's putting the unpropelled wheeled conveyance in front of the equine animal.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-15-2017 at 09:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:52 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Ok, it's late but.....

...let me throw a few things on here. I was thinking about going to the range tomorrow, but that may be ambitious. The easiest media for me to use instead of gelatin would be milk jugs, which I have and can use, but only once, or twice if the first shot is high.

Bags of sand? Flour? Wet Flour?, Wallboard compound? pillows? What can take several shots at without going to pieces. If I can find paper, and wet it, that would probably be the most stable. I just want to make sure that I retain the bullet and get some number for penetration. Looking at the dum dums I wonder if I should at least drive a nail or something into the top of the bullet to simulate a HP?

I 'prepared' a few HP bullets from the 165 grain plated (see picture) but on weighing found that drilling a HP made the bullets weigh around 153 grains. So I flattened another batch and made 'dum dums' out of them, so the 165 gr weight is retained. I feel I mutilated them more than 'modified' them, but neither my hands or my eyes work as well as they used to. Anyway, I'm going to select a few of these to actually fire into the media.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170216_015114_Burst01.jpg (61.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 20170216_021214.jpg (53.2 KB, 19 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 02-16-2017, 08:06 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default

I like to use bundles of wet newspaper as a test medium. Cheap & easy, simply tape together 12" bundles of newspaper and put them in a cooler. Then fill the cooler with water and take the cooler to the range. Pull a bundle out of the cooler and set it up and shoot.

I like to let the bundles sit over night so they are evenly/completely soaked.

They say shooting into wet bundles of paper is = to 1 1/2 times the penetration of 10% gelatin. While people could and will argue this till the cows come home and then back out again. If you use a known bullet/load as a test you will have an idea on how to rate your findings in the newspaper bundles.

Simple things like denim or leather + tee-shirt material can be placed over the bundles. Bones can easily be placed at different depths, apples paced in the center of a 12" bundle, etc.

The other thing I like about using the wet newspaper bundles is that the layers are easily peeled back and measured. You might consider making some bundles and using some 230gr 45acp ball ammo and some 9mm xtp's and use that data as a base line to compare everything else to. There's tons of data/gel tests on both bullets out there. Chronograph your loads, measure the depths of the 9mm xtp's/45 ball and come up with a formula (example: 1" of wet paper ='s 1.3" of gelatin). And use that for all your testing.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #117  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:21 AM
S&W HE's Avatar
S&W HE S&W HE is offline
SWCA Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Nevada, USA section
Posts: 334
Likes: 343
Liked 126 Times in 58 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=gwpercle;139465202]I wish somebody would shoot something with anything.... /QUOTE]

How about something that bleeds?

Many years ago I lived out of town in an area surrounded by jack rabbits. This provided an excellent opportunity to test factory and hand loaded ammo from handguns and rifles.

Here's my summary of experiences with three handgun cartridges:

The 9x19mm rounds (including HPs) never stopped one unless it was a head shot. I believe they were all killed with solid body hits but they didn't know it and ran far before dying.

About 20% of the time body shots with 230 grain GI round ball 45 ACP would bowl them over and they would get up and run a ways to die.
Body shots with a 200 H&G #68 bullet at 950 fps and Sierra's 185 grain at 1000 fps were impressive.

Any 357 mag load proved devastating.

I realize these results may be sacrilege for some 9x19mm proponents but it is what happened with the ammo available at the time.
__________________
Dave
SWCA #2465
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #118  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:20 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,358
Likes: 3,178
Liked 12,679 Times in 5,657 Posts
Default

GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #119  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:11 PM
S&W HE's Avatar
S&W HE S&W HE is offline
SWCA Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Nevada, USA section
Posts: 334
Likes: 343
Liked 126 Times in 58 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OFT II View Post
That looks like a Jug Johnson Special.
Nice job! That's tough to do and not split the brass.

I speak from experience after building 40/9mm, 45/40 and 45/38 rounds.
__________________
Dave
SWCA #2465
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:30 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default I've got data! Range Report.....

Sorry I've been out of touch but my internet was down for the fourth time in four months. The cable to my house keeps getting cut up or chewed by something.

Ok, I'm going to post this in sections and I have pictures, too.


Ballistcs test/Range report concerning "How to make a 9mm act like a .45".

Last night I looked to find who carried newsprint that I could wet and shoot through. On the way to Boggy Head Rifle Range (50 min. drive) I stopped by Office Depot to pick up some newsprint. Like everything else, you have to order it. So I asked the girl for the cheapest paper they had and got a box of copy paper for $30, which was more than I was hoping to spend but it was all set up and had a friend with me and I wanted to get some testing done. Weather conditions were PERFECT. Clear and sunny.

I had my chrono (karma from a member here) and using a Kel Tec P11 (3.1" barrel, the shortest I had), began shootng. Let me reiterate. These bullest were 29 brin. and I didn't expect to get much expansion out of them, even with my "jhp modifications", Range was between 10 and 15', a little closer than usual because I wanted my shots to be good with the Kel Tek, which is much harder to shoot as distance is increased.
Velocity Testing (fps):

First string with 3.5 grains powder 737, 716, 724
Second string with 3.7 grains powder 754, 756, 745
Third Stting with 3.9 grains of powder 786, 751, 753
Fourth String with 4.1 grains of powder Fail, 819, 827
Fifth String with 4.3 grains of powder 799, 817, 813

The target velocity wasn't reached with this load, but it close enough that by tweaking the load and using a longer barreled gun I think the goal is attainabled. With the flattened noses Accurate #7 may be able to used.

I had some problems in shooting the strings. I had a series of light strikes, some of which looked like they should have fired. I've never run into that problem with the Kel tec before, but of course when I NEED it to work..... Anyway, some of the test ammo I made was ruined but I'll try them later in a different gun to determine the problem. Also, the I loaded them to a max OAL of 1.155" when the maximum OAL for the 9mm Luger is 1.169". So I had some feeding problems. (Geez). But I did succeed in get the velocity testing done.

More to come.......
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 06:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:49 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Range Report...Penetration testing

Ok, on to penetration testing. I 'assumed' that the paper was arranged in the box end to end, but when I broke it open it was stacked in reams, so I was shooting at it edgwise. This was not the ideal media for this at all, but it's what I had, so what the hey??? It acted about like a soft wood.
I began peeling back the damaged paper until I found each bullet. In spite of being shot on edge the paper was a tough media and I was surprised by the short pentration. Another surprise was the almost total lack of expansion in the bullets.
I used three types of bullets. A RN (unmodified) for a baseline. A couple of blunt noses with the meplat that I fashioned and some were 'dum dumed' with cuts across the flat nose. The last ones were my home-made hollow points. Nearly of this effort was for naught because only one bullet had any appreciable expansion, which gave me hope that a properly constructed hollow point would do much better. As I peeled the paper up, the vertical damage was interesting to see.


Bullet #1
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_203723.jpg (60.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_204319.jpg (46.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_204619.jpg (41.2 KB, 15 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:55 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Bullet #2

Bullet #2....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_210141.jpg (48.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_210154.jpg (25.6 KB, 12 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:02 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Bullet #3

Bullet #3....

Note the 'bite' of paper the bullet took.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_210321.jpg (49.3 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_211319.jpg (56.1 KB, 12 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 07:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:10 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Bullet #4

Bullets #4 and 5...

These were found at the same level.

I have bullets #6 and 7, somewhere. I'll find them and post them. In the meantime my next post will be the only bullet that expanded.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_211909.jpg (46.5 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_212010_Burst01.jpg (92.2 KB, 6 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 07:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:25 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default The only expanded bullet....

The only expanded bullet is shown here. The caliper reading isn't exact because I couldn't hold the bullet, caliper and work the camera, too. For a bullet that is as hard as a brickbat, I was surprised to get any expansion, but this one shows that the diameter of a .45 ACP FMJ bullet can be achieved.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_230210_Burst01.jpg (59.0 KB, 9 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 07:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:36 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Here is the grand and glorious....

....Boggy Head Rifle Range in the Francis Marion Forest. They are improving Twin Ponds but they ran out of money. Boggy Head is supposed to be upgraded at some time in the future. I liked it better when it was just tables spaced out across the grass. The thing here is ridiculously cramped. I have the one big bay at the end so all of my pistols and stuff are laid out on the end. I can't stand having a regular table there. You can also see the target box of paper on the table out a ways. The shadowy figure at the side bench is my son's friend Will, who came along to shoot and helped me a great deal getting a lot of stuff in and out of the van.

Later I shot some flour bags but didn't get any data because I had to split due to a low blood sugar attack.

Even though I shot these from the bench height, somehow I managed to put a hole through our nice folding table.

I'll post the conclusions, but I need to find pictures of bullets 6 and 7.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_112128.jpg (95.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 20170217_203407.jpg (59.7 KB, 8 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 07:39 PM. Reason: add pictures
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 02-18-2017, 07:45 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Range Report..Notes and Conclusions

Notes:
As I dug through the paper their were dozens of flakes from the jackets of the bullets spread all through the paper, even on the sheets that were untouched. I believe that as the bullet plowed through the paper some of the particles shed on the way in and 'injected' themselves between clean sheets.

Conclusions:
I don't know if 4.3 gr of Power Pistol, is really a max load. If I can increase that or perfect the Acc #7 load, the target velocity of 830 fps could most likely be attained. The velocities of 827 fps are very close to that target. So I consider velocity testing to be very nearly successful and may be improved.

Penetration. Well, the 'media' that I had available was a good bit tougher than gelatin so the actual distance penetrated was small, in the 4" to 6" range. It's a wild guess, but I would really like to test in different media to get a more real-world defense penetration of 12" to 16". Or is it 18"? I believe that this load would at least pass the minimum penetration and with proper consstruction of the bullet, would be in the 12-18" zone. What I don't know and need to find out is that if the bullets will over penetrate. Again, with a XTP or Gold Dot short barrel design it could be 'tuned to fit the needed range.

Expansion. This testing nearly completely failed to show any expansion, probably due to the very hard alloy that the bullets were made from. However the one bullet that did expand beyond 9mm had a maximum diameter of .465", which is more than the target I hoped for. I would say the with proper bullet construction the .45 expanded diameter could be met and possibly exceeded.
However, my initial assumption that bullets as heavy 180 grains is probably not able to be realized because of limitations in the case size and the max OAL of the 9mm Luger cartridge. A full load of Acc #7 powder needed to be compressed and the Power Pistol appeared to reach the base of the bullet. That is only perception but pushing the theory to the max probably won't be feasible, though it would be interesting find out how heavy of a bullet can be pushed to 830 fps in a short barreled 9mm. A longer barreled gun should be able to get more velocity than the Kel Tec, used in this test.
The original statement of "How can you get a 9mm to act like a .45" is true in terms of velocity, the expanded size being equal or larger than a FMJ .45 round, and more than likely with acceptable penetration. The only factors in which the 9mm falls short is a maximum bullet weight of 165 grains which is a good bit lighter than .45 bullets. Also, the.45 wound channel is larger before the 9mm would have a chance to expand. I would think that a 9mm bullet could be made to 'mushroom' quickly, but won't equal the entry wound of a .45.
I would have done a little more testing comparing the reloaded ammo to a commercial round, but my blood sugar was getting low and we still had to clean up to be able to leave.

Below are the flakes from the bullet plating.

That's all for tonight.. I've got a lot to catch up on with my internet being down for a while.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170217_210757.jpg (33.5 KB, 6 views)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-18-2017 at 07:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 02-19-2017, 12:44 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Thanks....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.

Thanks. That sounds a lot closer than what I tested. I guess that's for phase II.

A soft lead bullet would be great because I'm not pushing the velocity. I'll look into it.

Well I guess I'll have to shoot up those 226 Xtreme bullets that I have left. They are great bullets so it's not a problem to me.

UPDATE: I just looked at the GT website and I really like what I see. There is a .38 caliber 165 gr HP SWC that if it could be sized down would be ideal. I could size them myself, but I'm not set up for it.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-19-2017 at 01:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 02-19-2017, 05:33 AM
Curtis Reed's Avatar
Curtis Reed Curtis Reed is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Arizona
Posts: 49
Likes: 14
Liked 97 Times in 27 Posts
Default

just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 02-19-2017, 12:36 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default I have loads.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Reed View Post
just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.
I have a lot of the common sizes of bullets in different styles. But that doesn't answer my question about how the heaviest 9mm bullet would perform in an SD situation.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 02-19-2017, 12:51 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Recoil.....

Someone mentioned that the recoil may be excessive.

When I did the testing with a 13 oz. Kel Tec P11, I didn't even notice the recoil.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 02-19-2017, 08:31 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

For sizing those bullets try to find one of the Lee 7/8x14 dies in 356 or maybe 357..what ever is appropriate for your guns. Looking at the velocitiees you were getting it looked like when you got to about 4 to 4.1 gr you were reaching point of no return with that gun/barrel length. a different powder may be in order or a longer bbl. I found many years ago that unless a bullet was made specifically for the way it was going to be used HPing it or even flatteniing the point didn't seem to do much for making them expand. There was at one time a bullet mold that cast a hard base and a very soft point that were then either glued together of heated somewhat to make 'em into one bullet. I had some and it seemed to work ok but it was made for the 44(in the one I had). More work than it was worth.. I have a thing you put 22 LR into and file the ends flat and with that soft lead bullet it does work very well on garden raiding wabbits...maybe something like that would work for you...Maybe 180 gr soft 38 bullets with the m sized and then filed on the end down to your weight range. Lot of work but maybe possible
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 02-20-2017, 12:55 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default ^^^ The Acc #7....

The Acc #7 load MIGHT give a bit more oomph, but it is bulkier and I don't think I could get a full charge in unless I flatten the tip. At least when I tried it ii would be a compressed load, which isn't awful, just more trouble. I'll be working on that. The bullets that Nevada Ed suggested may need no doctoring and they are much softer than the Xtremes that I tried. I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. I didn't make a requirement that the barrel be short, but since this is supposed to be a defensive load, the shorter barrel was more likely in a carry gun.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 02-20-2017, 01:53 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,358
Likes: 3,178
Liked 12,679 Times in 5,657 Posts
Default

" I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. " Quote

Ah;
you might add a very short case, also !!

Are we having fun yet ?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #135  
Old 02-20-2017, 02:03 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

I was also thinking of the failures to fire..Could the bullets have been a bit large in the leade of the bbl holding them back slightly cushioning the firing pin blow just enough? I had that happen one time many moons ago with a 9mm semi auto and some reloads I had made up with lead bullets. Don't even remember what gun it was...may have been a P1/P38. Long time ago...no thinking back it was a S&W 39. Being as the 9 is not my favorite I only have 4 now..a 639 Springfield 1911 my wife's Kahr and a Ruger convertible 357/ 9mm. They all use Fed HS 147 gr except the Ruger and it is a very good load for defense if you have to use the 9mm. My wife does carry the Kahr
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #136  
Old 02-20-2017, 02:21 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=Nevada Ed;139474235Ah;
you might add a very short case, also !!

Are we having fun yet ?[/QUOTE]

Yep capacity of the case..larger than normal weight of bullets and the fact that the 9 runs right at the top end of pressures is why I think the probability of getting the 9mm to equal the 45 is almost nil. Make the 9 better than normal??..probably with a lot of work and load development. But then do half the work with the 45 and make it better than the standard 45 too. If you could find a bullet for the 9mm that would reliably expand no matter what weight it would make the caliber a better defense round. That is why I like the 147 Hydra shock and in most guns(up to about 10 inch bbls) it is subsonic and can be suppressed. Oh I forgot...I also have a Contender 9mm 10 inch barrel.. Surprisingly accurate too. Haven't shot it in years
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #137  
Old 02-20-2017, 06:53 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default re paper

It does better when soaked. It lasts longer than other media (more hits). I get all of the newspaper I want from the local recycle center.

As stated before, you get less penetration with wet paper compared to gelatin. Other have stated it's a 1 1/2 to 1 ratio or for every 1" of penetration in wet paper ='s 1 1/2" of gelatin.

You should stand the paper up and tape it together. I typically use 10" to 12" bundles and put them in a cooler and then put water on them. I carry the whole thing to the range and take the bundles out of the cooler as needed.

Typical wet paper bundles. Did a test using some home swaged 225gr hp's for the 45acp/p+ combo's. Shot 5 rounds into the bundle at 50ft. 2 blew out the back.



Easy enough to peal the layers back to find the bullets and measure depths of the hits along with what the recovered bullets look like. The target that was placed on the front of that bundle pictured above.



Those bullets were designed to explode/frag. As you can see there's nothing left to them yet penetration was 7" to out the back of the bundle.

Take the extra time to make bundles and wet them. The end result is a better quality product. Right now the results you are getting is a result of the effort you put into making a media to shoot into.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #138  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:12 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default a fool's errand

Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.

You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.

You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+

The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.

You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:16 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default alloys for hp's

It may be over simplified but a good place to start is:

Every 100fps of velocity ='s 1bhn

If your load/bullet is doing around 800fps you need to look for a 8bhn bullet. The bullets alloy/velocities can over lap meaning you could use a 8bhn bullet for a 900fps load or a 10bhn bullet for a 900fps load.

Using this simple formula will get you in the ballpark.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #140  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:27 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default hp shapes & depths

The shape of a hp plays a huge roll in how a bullet performs. Same bullet with different hp shapes/depths.


The penta point hp is good for 800fps to 1000fps
The large round hp is good for 1000fps to 1200fps
The small round hp is good for 1200fps to 1400fps

Some different hp's for the 38spl's/357's. Just looking at them it's easy to pick out which bullets to use for low velocities and for high velocities.


The large hp's are from a custom mihec mold and are excellent in snub nosed revolvers (top row 2nd from left).
The cramer bullet (bottom row center) is a #25 from the 40's. It's called their "hunter" bullet and was designed for hot loads in the 357mag.

For slow moving bullets you want a large/wide hp with good depth. A slow moving bullet ='s under 1000fps.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #141  
Old 02-20-2017, 08:15 AM
fdw fdw is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,644
Likes: 1,351
Liked 1,478 Times in 626 Posts
Default

I have both, like both.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #142  
Old 02-20-2017, 08:19 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default Playing to the strength of your firearm

Your 9mm is a high pressure round, use bullets that allow you to benefit from that high pressure.

You're also limited by the short bbl of your firearm. The heavier the bullet the harder it is to keep the velocities up in that short bbl.

A 160gr bullet in a short bbl's 9mm doing 800fps/850fps isn't going to cut the mustard. People are getting the same things from their snub nosed 38spl's and have found that combo to be anemic.

I've done a lot of testing with short bbl'd firearms along with casting & swaging (jacketed & lead) my own bullets to test with. At the end of the day anything over 135gr's in a short bbl'd 9mm was taking away from the effectiveness of the high pressured 9mm turning it into a 38spl.

This is not a hot load by any means, a 125gr hp in a 3.2" bbl'd 9mm doing 1050fps. I've easily loaded these same bullets over 1150fps+ without using extreme loads.



7"+ of penetration in wet newpaper and over 1/2" of expansion with excellent weight retention.

Keep your eye on the prize:
Anything under 900fps is pretty much useless. The 147gr hydra-shok bullets are in that range and are borderline at best at those velocities. The only thing the hydra-shok's have going for them is the hp design that was made for low velocities. Hence 135gr hydra-shok for short bbl's (1060fps rated) and 147gr hydra-shok for standard length bbl's (1000fps rated).

Really you should be starting with light bullets, around 100gr and working your way up to the 150gr bullets testing different hp designs as you go. It's nothing to get a .355" to expand to 1/2" or better. Getting penetration with that expanded bullet in a short bbl'd 9mm is another story.

Something else to check:
Most 9mm's have oversized bbl's & even if they don't it doesn't hurt anything to use .358" lead bullets in a 9mm. I have 3 different 9mm's and 1 of them (that taurus pictured above) needs a .358" bullet (oversized bore). Got tired of loading ammo specific bullets for that pistol and .356" bullets for the other 2. Now I size/load everything .358", life is good!!! Not only is it simper to do, I can now use the same .358" bullets in the 9mm/38spl/357's. Tons of reloaders are doing the same thing over on the cast bullet website.

Jacketed bullets ='s no to .358" bullets.
lead bullets ='s yes to .358" bullets.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #143  
Old 02-20-2017, 01:46 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,358
Likes: 3,178
Liked 12,679 Times in 5,657 Posts
Default

As mentioned the primers may need a little more pressure when
being seated to stop the misfires?

You might check to see if your weapon is going all the way into Battery.
The case needs to rest on the chamber ring and if the bullet is
just a little too long it might be pushing the case back, causing problems.

Yes the 4.3grs of powder looks like it is falling off in fps.
You need more case space or a different powder to help out.

Keep on trucking........

PS;
are those pictures 640x480 ?
I usually get that and then enlarge.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 02-20-2017 at 01:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #144  
Old 02-20-2017, 02:54 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default That's a good thought.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
I was also thinking of the failures to fire..Could the bullets have been a bit large in the leade of the bbl holding them back slightly cushioning the firing pin blow just enough? I had that happen one time many moons ago with a 9mm semi auto and some reloads I had made up with lead bullets. Don't even remember what gun it was...may have been a P1/P38. Long time ago...no thinking back it was a S&W 39. Being as the 9 is not my favorite I only have 4 now..a 639 Springfield 1911 my wife's Kahr and a Ruger convertible 357/ 9mm. They all use Fed HS 147 gr except the Ruger and it is a very good load for defense if you have to use the 9mm. My wife does carry the Kahr
Good idea. I've had problems with bullets and short leades in 9mm, especially compacts. USUALLY if my guns are the slightest bit out battery, they don't fire, but this is a new scenario. I'll get a picture of the misfire cartridges. Some looked light, some looked they they were hit good. It's great that something like that would pop up when I made almost an hour trip with a limited amount of test bullets.

PS: You know, this whole thing rose up out of rejecting the light bullet/high velocity, toward the heavy bullet/low velocity side. Interesting ya'll use 147 gr. in your defense loads. Light or heavy, both will kill you dead, but I think the bigger bullet will make you deader, faster. Light or heavy, you only want so much penetration but in both you want a large wound channel, the larger the better. A bullet that is designed to expand big at velocities around 950 and give adequate penetration sounds desirable to me.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-20-2017 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 02-20-2017, 03:06 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default That is exactly....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
Yep capacity of the case..larger than normal weight of bullets and the fact that the 9 runs right at the top end of pressures is why I think the probability of getting the 9mm to equal the 45 is almost nil. Make the 9 better than normal??..probably with a lot of work and load development. But then do half the work with the 45 and make it better than the standard 45 too. If you could find a bullet for the 9mm that would reliably expand no matter what weight it would make the caliber a better defense round. That is why I like the 147 Hydra shock and in most guns(up to about 10 inch bbls) it is subsonic and can be suppressed. Oh I forgot...I also have a Contender 9mm 10 inch barrel.. Surprisingly accurate too. Haven't shot it in years
That is exactly what I've been trying to say.

I don't care about velocity, or weight, but what does the most damage, and I think the balance of the big 9mm at adequate velocity is better than many would think.

PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-20-2017 at 03:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 02-20-2017, 05:39 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default But....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.


You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.

@@@ I've only seen really scant data/reading on the 165 gr 9mm. I'm sure there's more out there.

You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+

@@@ I know that I can't actually equal a .45, just getting a 9mm to act like one. Your are right in that I never read that a bullet under 200 grains going 900 ft/sec is inadequate, I've seen more that field evidence shows the .38 special to be inadequate. I haven't read much of anything about the heaviest 9mms. You got me there. I guess what you end up with is a .38 special that can shoot 10-15 rounds/mag which has to be some improvement. At least over the .38 special.

The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.

@@@ Well, a lot of people carry snubs and shorter barrel 9mms so the short barrel in most carry guns is what I'm looking for. I could have used my full size Third Gen to test the rounds, but I'm considering what most people carry. Small guns. But, you know, I think this is the best argument against my 'theory' that I've heard yet.

You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.


@@@ But that wouldn't make the min. penetration requirement of 12" that I set early on. I haven't forgotten about penetration. I've said all along that a properly constructed bullet would need to be used. They make Gold Dot bullets in 135 gr. short barrel that are designed to expand at snub velocities. I'm thinking that a 160 gr version could be made. Even a decently hard HPSWC with the HP and the hardness tuned would do well I believe.
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....

I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-20-2017 at 05:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 02-20-2017, 07:26 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
I wasn't using the Contender as a gun to make it perform better. I did try loading for performance back quite a few years...but to be honest it didn't gain much because the 9mm runs at about all it will do ...safely anyway. I will admit to having a couple of leaky primers and only got about 70 more FPS over safe and sane loads. Even with the Contender you can only go so far! I loaded 160 gr round nose bullets in that Contender and only got about a hundred FPS more than you have gotten. With a 10 inch bbl... safe and sane. leaky primers add 74 FPS. I actually found my records. That was using a Crony... Not sure they are the most accurate chronograph. Also today's powders seem to be better and more varied
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #148  
Old 02-20-2017, 11:45 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Where does the energy go....

... to answer my own question I suppose some of the energy is used for cycling the action. I didn't think that it cost that much in performance because the bullet is gone before the action unlocks. Hmmmmmmm
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:07 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,094 Times in 13,759 Posts
Default Oh, I mainly meant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
I wasn't using the Contender as a gun to make it perform better. I did try loading for performance back quite a few years...but to be honest it didn't gain much because the 9mm runs at about all it will do ...safely anyway. I will admit to having a couple of leaky primers and only got about 70 more FPS over safe and sane loads. Even with the Contender you can only go so far! I loaded 160 gr round nose bullets in that Contender and only got about a hundred FPS more than you have gotten. With a 10 inch bbl... safe and sane. leaky primers add 74 FPS. I actually found my records. That was using a Crony... Not sure they are the most accurate chronograph. Also today's powders seem to be better and more varied
I mainly meant accuracy-wise. A fixed single shot barrel versus a mechanical device that takes itself apart and reassembles itself for every shot.

That's pretty good info though. Another place where theory doesn't quite hold up in the real world.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:53 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....

I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.

Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.

As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.

A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition

They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.

The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.

Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.

Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.


Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely the lyman 158gr rn 358311.

We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bad shape don't make it old, old don't make it valuable cussedemgun The Lounge 12 02-05-2015 07:02 PM
Does modifying a RNL bullet potentially make it a better stopper? GatorFarmer Ammo 9 06-13-2012 12:16 AM
Does a bullet button make the M&P 15 California compliant? Sierra Steve 2nd Amendment Forum 4 12-01-2011 11:21 AM
Bullet strikes that make sparks in movies/TV P&R Fan The Lounge 30 05-23-2011 08:48 PM
Clothes make the man, but stocks make the revolver! PALADIN85020 The Lounge 3 12-12-2009 11:33 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:43 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)