Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 02-21-2017, 01:06 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

The Contender is an accurate little gun... and according to the records shot pretty well. Better than the P-38 I shot at the time. Wish I still had it. WWII bring back..Holster and 2 mags. The 160s were sized at 357 and I remember pushing them into the chamber just slightly. Didn't expand for spit. Shot some factory ammo but no records of it in the book.. I still have 6 or 7 pistol bbls for the Contender including 41 mag 38/357 45 auto 44 mag and a 45 Colt as well as the 9mm. The rest are mostly rifle rounds like the 22H 218 Bee. I tried pushing the 45 auto in the Contender and was surprised how much faster it could be pushed... and never blew a primer. Lead bullets in the high vel loadings would really lead the bore though. I even loaded some 45 auto with 2400...lead bullets. Think I still have a box or so left somewhere. Ok performers in the Contender... not in an auto. Bbl length is 8 inches on the 45
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #152  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:02 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.

### Ah Ha Confusion of terms. Man we've about gotten rid of the CUP/PSI thing, but how about all this other conflicting stuff.

Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.

### Am I making this up or do some people (for whatever reason) measure revolver barrels from the recoil plate to the tip of the barrel?????

As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.

### Well said.

A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition


They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.

### i should have known to follow their lead.

The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.

Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.

### That's good info. The short barrels used in SD complicate this a LOT more than I thought it would.



Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.


Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely th lyman 158gr rn 358311.

### Not at all. I guess it was worth this exercise for you to bring that knowledge out into the open.

We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.

Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'

NOW it's getting weird.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-21-2017 at 07:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:16 PM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 168
Liked 1,631 Times in 680 Posts
Default

sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:14 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 6,106
Likes: 6,271
Liked 7,007 Times in 2,961 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.

Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'

NOW it's getting weird.
...
Actually what they may call us is the MAD re-inventors. We re-invent because we don't believe what has been tried and found to not work. Sometimes we actually stumble onto something that does seem to work ...a little anyway. I did try what you are letting run wild in your imagination many years ago. I tried the 2 piece bullets the hollowpointers the just a little more powder and found when you get to the point of no more returns it is uh-oh time. I found you could make the 45 perform better both ACP and Colt..the 44 sp too. But they were all lower pressure rounds and were able to be bumped up. even the 38 Sp...The Super already had a bit heavier bullets than the Parabellum but was in the same pressure range so no real joy there. RW don't even think of what you have been doing as a failure.. I had fun trying all this stuff..bet you have too! and by the way..That fold up gun idea has some merit...But gotta put that on hold..my wife(the bad one) just brought me the beater from the mixer..made icing for the cake. It is my job to clean the beater. Darn

I guess she ain't ALL bad

Last edited by Skeet 028; 02-21-2017 at 08:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #155  
Old 02-22-2017, 07:47 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default Why sorry????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
I don't understand why you are sorry. You had the best explanation and experience of why it didn't pan out. Simple answer. As usual the relationships that I was counting on weren't linear, especially those between a former black powder cartridges and modern higher pressure small cased cartridges ESPECIALLY in short barrels with short chambers. I've rad data books that said about a particular cartridgefv

I'm gonna do some more testing or this load, with different guns, just to see the effect. I've got a lot of very nice from Xtreme 165 gr. plated RN. Their plated bullets are almost jacketed.

I think I succeeded in proving that a 9mm could be made to act like a .38 with heavy bullets, but not they they could act like a .45. That part was a flop. I'm still a believer in heavier bullets but not to that extreme. A 147 gr. 9mm shoots very nicely.

As far as the brainstorming, it may sound silly, but it works best for me in thinking 'out of the box'. It doesn't hurt.

I always wanted to recover spent bullets. I'd like to do more of it. I've got an idea for producing gelatin blocks by having just one loaf pan or two in the refrigerator at a time. If you preserve it or don't let it sit around too long, it should be ok if kept cool. Since I'm retired I've got time.

BTW I'm a chess person.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-22-2017 at 07:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #156  
Old 02-25-2017, 08:08 PM
Rogeronimo Rogeronimo is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 314
Likes: 68
Liked 109 Times in 85 Posts
Default

Vihtavuori claims a load of 3N38 will push a 147gn bullet at 1200FPS ... that should do it.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #157  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:05 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default They scored several hits....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Or just shoot better under stress. Itwas as much a training/skill failure as 9mm bullet failure.
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 04-20-2017 at 04:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:24 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Banned
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,121
Likes: 2,661
Liked 4,324 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

The problem is that they were fighting committed killers armed with long guns, using handguns.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #159  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:03 PM
dave201's Avatar
dave201 dave201 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 96
Likes: 45
Liked 103 Times in 38 Posts
Default

I load the 9 using + P brass for steel
VV37
1500 fps 124 gr
186 PF Smokin
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #160  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:29 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
The distance for most of the feds were across a car or two, not much of pistol skill for average shooters. There were far more tactical errors that accounted for what happened, including losing a primary weapon before the fight. Bigger bullets may or may not have helped.
Most handgun bullets will penetrate todays cars with ease as long as they don't hit solid steel. The 223 would fail in the same instance. Though I agree, rifles against rifles are always better, they out numbered the two bad guys & only one had a rifle. Better shooting certainly would have made a diff, bigger bullets, maybe not.
I shoot with LE guys almost every week, some are quite good, most are just not up to skill level required to win such a fight. They rely on numbers & luck, not skill. Skill comes with training & a lot of continued dynamic practice.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 04-20-2017 at 01:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #161  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:43 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default Time for phase 2....

I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:47 PM
Kiwi cop's Avatar
Kiwi cop Kiwi cop is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 4,281
Liked 6,015 Times in 1,304 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik View Post
It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
And Stacey Lim (LAPD) was shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum load and survived.

Back in the late 80's the FBI determined that the most reliable man stopper was a 10mm round at about 850 fps which lead directly to the .40 S&W round.

I wish someone would tell my department that the FBI theory has now been debunked. They still insist on a 148 gn 9mm load in a G17 where the barrel is optimised for 115-125 gn projectiles.

Accuracy is horrible.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #163  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:01 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
Dry paper is really hard on a bullet, doesnt tell you anything about expansion characteristics. Bullet companies used wetpack to test expansion for years prior to ballistic gel.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 06-28-2017 at 12:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #164  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:41 PM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 2,003
Liked 1,653 Times in 809 Posts
Default

I ignore all the hype, and carry what I want to carry. And never lose sleep what someone else carries. Government set their own rules, doesn't concern me, unless they are wasting my money.

Depending on where, or what I am doing my carry varies, and so does caliber.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #165  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:47 PM
franzas's Avatar
franzas franzas is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 587
Likes: 378
Liked 333 Times in 179 Posts
Default

To Forrest-

I like the Idea of getting TC barrels to test the accuracy of pistol calibers. That would save a lot of time and bullets, since I can't shoot "regular" handguns decent off a bag. Plus, one day I'm on and one day I can't hold a group. The TC seems like it would negate most of this.

Thanks for the good suggestion.
__________________
an actual conservative
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #166  
Old 04-25-2017, 09:35 AM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,104
Likes: 1,151
Liked 1,381 Times in 835 Posts
Lightbulb Perhaps your prayers have been answered...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
My inbox had an e-mail from Xtreme this a.m. with RN 165gr 9mm bullets ON SALE... Perhaps these may aid you in your heavier 9mm bullet quest?

Now you get to develop some load data...?

Cheers!

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 04-25-2017 at 09:38 AM. Reason: spelin?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #167  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:05 AM
PaPow PaPow is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 71
Likes: 141
Liked 70 Times in 37 Posts
Default

OMG, my head hurts after reading all these opinions...lol
All i have to say is, why hit somebody with a prius when you can hit them with a tractor trailer truck (9mm vs 45)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #168  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:36 AM
LAA LAA is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 498
Likes: 188
Liked 325 Times in 193 Posts
Default

Yesterday, my preference was to blowup one gallon milk jugs full of colored water, and caps tightly sealed......................with the 45 over the 9mm.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #169  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:32 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default I got slowed down but here is my plan...

I hurt my back badly last week and I have hernia surgery, but I got a very nice batch of SWCHPs, but in 158 grain. I'm also saving up newsprint. When I recover from these two maladies I'll get some data and do some wet newsprint testing.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:04 PM
358156hp 358156hp is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 728
Likes: 97
Liked 224 Times in 149 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.
Your hypothesis is flawed, and your conclusions are inaccurate.

But the 9mm bullet would need to expand to .452 before it reaches the target to have the same initial frontal impact area as 45 ball, and somehow its profile. Bullets don't necessarily expand to full diameter the instant they strike a soft target. From that point of view, it would also need to gain 65 grains in weight somehow to equal the 45s penetration in said soft target.

As for the 40 S&W, its tombstone will read something like "Here lies the 40 S&W, designed to equal the performance of the 45 ACP, and the convenience of the 9mm. It failed in both regards by only offering the major drawbacks of both cartridges with none of the benefits of either".
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #171  
Old 06-27-2017, 11:07 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default Thanks for your ideas....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 358156hp View Post
Your hypothesis is flawed, and your conclusions are inaccurate.

But the 9mm bullet would need to expand to .452 before it reaches the target to have the same initial frontal impact area as 45 ball, and somehow its profile. Bullets don't necessarily expand to full diameter the instant they strike a soft target. From that point of view, it would also need to gain 65 grains in weight somehow to equal the 45s penetration in said soft target.

As for the 40 S&W, its tombstone will read something like "Here lies the 40 S&W, designed to equal the performance of the 45 ACP, and the convenience of the 9mm. It failed in both regards by only offering the major drawbacks of both cartridges with none of the benefits of either".
What you say is true, but the first few inches of penetration don't do serious (fatal) damage whether it's a big or small bullet. These bullets I'm using are very soft. The extra hard bullets I started with showed some (a little) expansion, one got to .45 size. I expect that these will expand like crazy. Maybe flatten into a coin shape.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-09-2018 at 06:07 PM. Reason: update
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 06-27-2017, 11:21 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default Took 158 to the range, but.....

I STILL haven't gotten my surgery, my cardio dr. is checking me and taking his time.

I took the 158 gr lead HPs to the range last week for velocity testing and though the cartridges looked and plunked good, they wouldn't feed well in my guns and I wasn't able to fire the higher loadings. I'm going to try again.


Even if I succeed there, I'm still having problems with being able to determine what the max loadings are for the 165 and 158 gr bullets in 9mm. I called Alliant and they told me they just didn't test those bullets. I'll call the Accurate people and see if they have more data on the Acc #7 powder. Someone suggested that the Vihtvuori people might be helpful. If I can't find what I want with Alliant and Accurate, I'll try them and get some Vihta powder. I don't mind spending the extra dough since I have a specific goal.

Can I ask if any of you have Quickload software if you could run these loadings and come up with a theoretical max load?

9mm 158 gr. lead and 165 grain jacketed with Power Pistol, Acc #7 and whatever Vihtavuori powder would get the best velocities with this combo. That would at least give me a framework to work in.

I believe that I can get better results, but it's slow coming.

Oh, and when I get the velocity testing done, I'm going to test them in wet pulp. I only used the paper last time because it was what I could get, but now I know nobody stocks pulp paper but they can 'order it for you'.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:32 AM
ExcitableBoy's Avatar
ExcitableBoy ExcitableBoy is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 816
Likes: 1,123
Liked 1,549 Times in 556 Posts
Default

How to make a 9mm perform like a .45acp?

Send it to a very good method acting school, of course!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #174  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:03 AM
eaglescout316 eaglescout316 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 41
Likes: 21
Liked 20 Times in 13 Posts
Default

I'm curious about the methodology for all these studies that show with cutting-edge, top-quality, premium, $$$$ ammo a 9mm outperforms a .45

Every time the studies are summarized it sounds like "if we rip out all the stops, 9mm will beat a run-of-the-mill .45"

Are these studies comparing optimized .45 to optimized 9mm? Or is it more like the 21st century ammunition available for 9mm will in fact outperform stuff found in Browning's junk drawer?
__________________
They call me, "Doug's boy"
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 06-29-2017, 03:21 PM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 804
Likes: 86
Liked 482 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Quote:
rwsmith wrote:
I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.
Define what you mean by "effectiveness".

Define how you intend to test for this "effectiveness" short of shooting a bunch of people and watching how quickly they are incapacitated and how fast they die.

Shooting a bullet into homogeneous material; be it ballistic gel, water, dry paper or wet paper tells you nothing about the "effect" that bullet is going to have on a human body since it is not a homogeneous material.

We have four pages full of people arguing that the 45 is more effective because it is bigger against people arguing the 9mm is no less effective because it is faster. And both backed up by anecdotes, conjecture and extrapolation from dissimilar materials all of which has so far in this thread - as in thousands of others - proven nothing and managed to convince nobody.

How about we return to the original question, "How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45" since that is - at least on some level - objectively answerable?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #176  
Old 06-29-2017, 03:25 PM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 804
Likes: 86
Liked 482 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Quote:
eaglescout316 wrote:
I'm curious about the methodology for all these studies that show with cutting-edge, top-quality, premium, $$$$ ammo a 9mm outperforms a .45
Well, rather than simply raising the question, why don't you search the internet for some studies where the methodology is adequately described and then prepare a summary comparing and contrasting them and their respective results to see what aspect of the methodology was driving the author's conclusions. ?
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 06-29-2017, 05:10 PM
KSDeputy's Avatar
KSDeputy KSDeputy is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,504
Likes: 465
Liked 1,574 Times in 700 Posts
Default

I never liked 9mm. I do like 9mm kurtz for pocket guns (.380). I carry a .45 and since we changed from .357 magnum revolvers to the 645, I always have. I am too old to change, unless a phaser comes along.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #178  
Old 02-08-2018, 11:28 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default I'm back?

Well, I'm back after a lot of issues. The plated 165 grain RN went together easily but they were way to hard to get any expansion. Since my goal is to test expansion and penetration of a heavier than normal bullet, I had to find something softer.

So I found some 158 gr. SWCHP bullets. I've had trouble assembling rounds that would work but hadn't had any success. I got an 'M' expansion die to make the seating a little easier on the nose of the bullet.

I've divided the loading into four steps.

Expand with the 'M' die and flare generously to keep from shaving the bullets.

Lube the bullet with some Imperial wax

Carefully seat the bullet.

Taper crimp enough to reduce the flare.

This may sound nuts, but before I lubed the bullets they wouldn't seat without deforming and the shoulder would swell and wouldn't plunkl I chucked the no fitters in my drill press and filed of the extra diameter. Rather tedious. That's why I tried the lube and they wen't together without deforming to the point that they wouldn't plunk. I have to pat myself on the back for finally figuring out why these things wouldn't chamber.

So, now I'm ready for velocity testing starting with a minimum load of 5 grains of Acc #7. If everything works,I'll shoot into some wet pulp and test penetration and expansion,

Oh, to answer a few comments so far:

Thanks for the constructive comments positive or negative. Sorry it's been so long, but with cardiac therapy and trying to help my son in his endeavors, I've only had time to shoot some. And because of neglect for a few short months, I had to do some drastic cleaning in my garage before I could even think about reloading.

About effectiveness, objectivity and methodology, I'm not writing a paper here. All I can do is shoot wet pulp, measure weight retention, expansion and penetration and draw some conclusion for my own satisfaction. That's where a vast majority of the data we have now comes from. I doubt that there is much data on its effectiveness on living organisms using heavier bullets .

Why not buy a .45? The only answer I have is that 9mm has more rounds. The same goes for a .38.

Caliber wars??? I'm just curious. If I'm wasting my time, it's my time to waste. I've always been an experimenter going on 40 years of reloading. I suppose I've never been a 'serious' reloader on account of that.

As far as searching the internet, I have. I've found out that data for these bullets is very scarce. I've also found that much older reloading manuals have loads for 158 gr. and 165 gr. 9mm bullets, but I don't have them. I like reading old data, maybe I'll find a Lyman manual that has something usable because w/o published data I have to stop short and have no idea where max load is. From the little data I have, about 920 fps is possible. I'm not going to push it, though.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-08-2018 at 11:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:30 AM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 804
Likes: 86
Liked 482 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Quote:
awlslate wrote:
superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps.
I've never been able to push a 124 grain bullet to 1200 fps and neither has the Hornady Handbook.

I have, however, been able to get 185 grain .451 diameter bullets up to 1000 fps (and Hornady provides loads that will supposedly go faster).
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:37 AM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
Banned
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 1,112
Liked 1,609 Times in 660 Posts
Default

In order for a 9mm to duplicate a 230gr 45acp moving at 830fps you're gonna have to push a 147gr bullet at 1295fps.

i think just buying a .45 1911 might be uh, safer?
Reply With Quote
  #181  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:54 AM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 804
Likes: 86
Liked 482 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Quote:
RGVShooter wrote:
In order for a 9mm to duplicate a 230gr 45acp moving at 830fps you're gonna have to push a 147gr bullet at 1295fps.
All you're doing there is computing equal kinetic energies for the bullets and that has little, if anything, to do with the bullet's "performance", much less it's "effectiveness" which is what the OP said he was trying to test before subtly changing his criteria in post #179.

Last edited by hdwhit; 02-09-2018 at 12:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:21 AM
rsrocket1 rsrocket1 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: DFW Texas, a free state!
Posts: 755
Likes: 42
Liked 326 Times in 197 Posts
Default Simple answer

Quote:
How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
Shoot 'em twice.

After all, isn't that the whole argument behind a low recoil, high capacity 9 vs a big heavy 45?

Twice as many smaller holes in the right places will help negate the "non-lethal force" of the itty bitty 9.
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:40 AM
TomkinsSP's Avatar
TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: E of America's Great Lake
Posts: 2,774
Likes: 1,416
Liked 4,377 Times in 1,654 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadmike View Post
I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.
Or a .44 S&W Special...
__________________
Certified Curmudgeon
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #184  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:41 AM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
Banned
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 1,112
Liked 1,609 Times in 660 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
All you're doing there is computing equal kinetic energies for the bullets and that has little, if anything, to do with the bullet's "performance", much less it's "effectiveness" which is what the OP said he was trying to test before subtly changing his criteria in post #179.
yeah I know it was a lame attempt, i tried lol... I still think it would be easier to just go out & buy a .45acp pistol.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 02-09-2018, 08:41 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default hmmmmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
I make lots of bullets that shoot. This presents new problems.

I don't cast bullets myself. But I do load four pistol caliers and 3 rifles, including making my own cases for a Japanese Arisaka. I don't see where that makes a difference in this problem.

Instead of being objective, rather than just ignoring my posts, people say a three year old has more where with all than I do and that that I what I read is crummy. I like it when people tell me why they think my idea won't work. Their critiques have solved some problems for me. But I don't like just being bad mouthed because I'm enthusiastic. AND this is a learning experience for me. I've loaded 9mm of every weight of jacketed and three weights of cast in several configurations and they all work, Some gave difficulty, but I'm learning to do that better, too. Again it's my time and energy and I'll spit in the wind if I want to.

Today, I plan to go to the range and clock these rounds. Maybe I'll learn something.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-09-2018 at 09:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 02-09-2018, 08:45 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default I did mention

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVshooter View Post
yeah I know it was a lame attempt, i tried lol... I still think it would be easier to just go out & buy a .45acp pistol.
...that a .45 doesn't carry as many rounds as a 9mm. I've shot .45s, they are great. 9mms have more rounds than revolvers, too. I'm not expecting this to catch on and be the round that everybody wants and needs at the exclusion of all else. I just want to see how it works.
Think of all the time people have spent working on 'wildcat' rounds. Most of the time they are no better or have any appreciable improvement over the original. Out of all that there is the Ackley and the Herret, which are now commercialized popular rounds.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-09-2018 at 08:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Regaj Regaj is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 80
Likes: 78
Liked 130 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Nice, old thread. (I like it when folks sniff around in the corners of canonical law... some things in the shooting world are immutable and unchanging - but oftentimes those steadfast pillars are different than what we think they are).

Best wishes with the cardiac therapy, RW!

Regarding number of rounds (the impetus behind the whole thing), I'll only offer that how many we have of something affects us. It may very well influence how we respond in a gunfight.

The fellow with the 17-shot wonder-nine and another 16-round mag on his belt is likely to shoot differently than the the fellow with 8 shots of .45 ACP, or the fellow with the 5-shot J-frame in his pocket.

Getting lots of lead downrange in a hurry is the doctrine currently in vogue. But it's not the only doctrine.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #188  
Old 02-09-2018, 11:54 AM
SA1911 SA1911 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 267
Likes: 140
Liked 261 Times in 120 Posts
Default

It is amusing to read attempts of 9MM aficionados to equate their beloved round with The King. The 9MM will never, ever come close to The King's efficacy. The 9MM dudes have to conceal a crucial factor that's partially revealed by rwsmith: bullet weight. The King's 230 grain bullet generates momentum that the 9MM will never be able to replicate.

cadmike is all over the right answer: the only way to achieve .45 ACP performance is to shoot a .45 ACP.

There's a reason Big 5 hunters use huge bullets at pedestrian velocities. You won't see a Big 5 hunter using a 180 grain .300 Wby Mag to hunt elephants.

The 1911 is the only battle semi handgun that was designed to be an offensive battle handgun. It's deserved reputation is unrivaled by any other military handgun.

Militaries of most countries issued small caliber handguns to their officers for in-field execution of their own soldiers for sundry transgressions. The 9MM does perform well when it's used to put a bullet in the back of a derelict soldier's skull. GB & USA issued big cartridge handguns to their soldiers as offensive weapons.

The 9MM never has nor will it ever come close to achieving The King's efficacy.

If you want .45 ACP performance, buy a .45 ACP. That's the only way to get .45 ACP performance. If you don't need .45 ACP performance, buy a 9MM.

Last edited by SA1911; 02-09-2018 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #189  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:18 PM
gen3guy gen3guy is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 604
Likes: 21
Liked 660 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Energy is a function of mass and a change in velocity. In order to get a 147 Gr. 9mm "act like a .45", if expansion is the goal, one would have to increase the velocity accordingly. The expansion of a particular projectile will hasten the loss of velocity, thus imparting more energy on the target. The diameter of the final result doesn't really have that much to do with it. Let's not forget that the gold standard of stopping power is the diminutive 125 Gr. .357 bullet at .357 Magnum velocity.

ShootersCalculator.com | Bullet Energy Calculator
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:30 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 3,436
Likes: 37
Liked 5,408 Times in 1,753 Posts
Default

How do you make the 9mm equal the .45? Increase the bullet diameter by 27% and double the bullet weight...
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #191  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:38 PM
richardw's Avatar
richardw richardw is offline
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: SE PA
Posts: 972
Likes: 292
Liked 2,548 Times in 653 Posts
Default

I am a far cry from a knowledgeable ballistics student, but I do remember my high school physics course ( got an A). We all know that weight X velocity yields energy. So while it should be simple math to determine the specifics of trying to achieve equality between the 45 ACP and the 9 mm Luger there are variables that make it difficult if trying to equate HP performance. Those variables would be in the width of expanded bullets. The greater the expanded width the more quickly the bullet loses energy because the width determines velocity reducing resistance. So HP expansion would have an affect on any comparison, and that expansion would vary from brand to brand. And if you compare 45 and 9 HP the 45 will win on expansion diameter because it if a larger diameter to start with so it would expand to a greater width than the 9mm.

So ball ammo would be a better test bullet to make repeatable comparisons. Since making the 9mm ball round weighs more is not really practical since a 9mm diameter can not be made bigger than 9mm. So a ball ammo 45 bullet will always punch a bigger hole than a 9mm. You could increase the velocity of the 9mm but not the diameter. Even if you made the 9mm bullet longer to increase its weight it would not change its diameter.

To summarize, the fact is that the diameter of a bullet hole is very dependent upon the diameter of the bullet when expansion is not a factor.

We now know that non expanding monolithic ammo like the Underwood and Lehigh Extreme Defender or Defense. With those rounds the hydrostatic force from the bullet makes a hole bigger than the bullet diameter. That could make 9mm monosyatic equal a 45 ball. However, proper comparison would be to use monolithic ammo in both calibers, and then the 45 would outperform the 9mm.

There is a simple reason for that. The laws of physics do not change no matter how much you try to bend them. So I follow the rule of common sense. I can handle a 9mm better than a 45 ACP. To get bet penetration and HO comparable wound channel I use Underwood Extreme Defense, and as a bonus I get better barrier penetration.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:45 PM
SA1911 SA1911 is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 267
Likes: 140
Liked 261 Times in 120 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gen3guy View Post
Energy is a function of mass and a change in velocity. In order to get a 147 Gr. 9mm "act like a .45", if expansion is the goal, one would have to increase the velocity accordingly. The expansion of a particular projectile will hasten the loss of velocity, thus imparting more energy on the target. The diameter of the final result doesn't really have that much to do with it. Let's not forget that the gold standard of stopping power is the diminutive 125 Gr. .357 bullet at .357 Magnum velocity.

ShootersCalculator.com | Bullet Energy Calculator
Tell me about what you know of the "stopping power" of the 125 grain .357 Mag bullet.

Let me help you out: stopping power is the product of pulp fiction sold to those who had to believe nonsense. There is no such thing as a tactical handgun "manstopper". It's a fairy tale. At it's best, the .357 Mag is mediocre as a tactical handgun cartridge. And it ain't even mediocre when it's firing 125 grain bullets. Were I to use a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, it'd be loaded with the FBI Load: .38 Special 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:50 PM
bigggbbruce's Avatar
bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Where this month?
Posts: 3,604
Likes: 264
Liked 4,215 Times in 1,714 Posts
Default How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

Simple.. Take a 115gr 9mm and increase the diameter to .451 and double the weight.
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:32 PM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is online now
US Veteran
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 13,580
Likes: 12,693
Liked 38,976 Times in 9,932 Posts
Default

Anyone who thinks a 9mm can compare to a 45 is completely ignoring physics.
You can make a 9mm either fast and lighter or slower and heavier.
You can make a 45 lighter and faster or slower and heavier.
You can make similar bullets for both calibers, from light to heavy constructed hollow points, soft points, monolithic copper, lead, serrated what ever.
You can +P both
What can be done to one can be done to the other.

A 45 will always be bigger and heavier. Yes, MxVsq. But, a 9mm, 147 gr at 1000fps=326. A 115gr at 1225fps=383. A 45+P, 230gr at 900=413, A 200gr @ 1000=444. A 165gr 45 @ 1250+572.

In every case the 45 wins out, heavier bullet, bigger bullet, Its light bullets can go as fast as a much lighter 9mm light bullet.

No way no how is a 9mm bullet ever going to match up to a 45 if you compare them fairly. You can pick the best 9mm and pit it against the worst 45 and come out in about a dead heat.

A 9mm handgun's advantages are in size, capacity and recoil.

Power is fine, accuracy is final. If you can sho0t a 45 as well as a 9, your better off unless you have a bunch of assailants or you waste your shots. I got it about suppression fire, but, a fatal wound is the ultimate suppression fire. The odds of being in an out and out everyone blaze away gun battle for the majority is close to zero and if you live so you might find yourself in one, I suggest your tactics include a handy assault rifle.

You want to shoot a high capacity 9, that's fine. Its not a bad plan. Do it be good with it. but don't try to make it a 45acp, cause it isn't one and is never going to be one.

Over time combat bullets have gone smallerr and smaller and faster and faster. But, the round count for KIA is now over 250,00 rounds.

Thats despite a round count of about 1.5 for the snipers firing those big slow bullets.

Last edited by steelslaver; 02-09-2018 at 01:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 02-09-2018, 01:54 PM
bigggbbruce's Avatar
bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Where this month?
Posts: 3,604
Likes: 264
Liked 4,215 Times in 1,714 Posts
Default 9mm like a 45ACP.. I'll go with 44 Magnum

I was out walking this morning and found the bathroom of a very large bear.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg thumbnail.jpg (119.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg thumbnail1.jpg (92.1 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by bigggbbruce; 02-09-2018 at 01:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 02-09-2018, 02:31 PM
ColbyBruce ColbyBruce is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 7,849
Likes: 3,752
Liked 11,614 Times in 3,637 Posts
Default

To the OP, if you still own that Sig P250 buy yourself a couple of 21 round mags for the P320 TacOps model and you should be GTG.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #197  
Old 02-09-2018, 02:41 PM
fdw fdw is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,644
Likes: 1,351
Liked 1,478 Times in 626 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
Anyone who thinks a 9mm can compare to a 45 is completely ignoring physics.
You can make a 9mm either fast and lighter or slower and heavier.
You can make a 45 lighter and faster or slower and heavier.
You can make similar bullets for both calibers, from light to heavy constructed hollow points, soft points, monolithic copper, lead, serrated what ever.
You can +P both
What can be done to one can be done to the other.

A 45 will always be bigger and heavier. Yes, MxVsq. But, a 9mm, 147 gr at 1000fps=326. A 115gr at 1225fps=383. A 45+P, 230gr at 900=413, A 200gr @ 1000=444. A 165gr 45 @ 1250+572.

In every case the 45 wins out, heavier bullet, bigger bullet, Its light bullets can go as fast as a much lighter 9mm light bullet.

No way no how is a 9mm bullet ever going to match up to a 45 if you compare them fairly. You can pick the best 9mm and pit it against the worst 45 and come out in about a dead heat.

A 9mm handgun's advantages are in size, capacity and recoil.

Power is fine, accuracy is final. If you can sho0t a 45 as well as a 9, your better off unless you have a bunch of assailants or you waste your shots. I got it about suppression fire, but, a fatal wound is the ultimate suppression fire. The odds of being in an out and out everyone blaze away gun battle for the majority is close to zero and if you live so you might find yourself in one, I suggest your tactics include a handy assault rifle.

You want to shoot a high capacity 9, that's fine. Its not a bad plan. Do it be good with it. but don't try to make it a 45acp, cause it isn't one and is never going to be one.

Over time combat bullets have gone smallerr and smaller and faster and faster. But, the round count for KIA is now over 250,00 rounds.

Thats despite a round count of about 1.5 for the snipers firing those big slow bullets.
I like and shoot them both well but carry a 380 most of the time. Why? Because it conceals easier, is more comfortable and I shoot it well too. In other words, I don't get hung up on caliber.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 02-09-2018, 05:46 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,876
Likes: 41,440
Liked 29,093 Times in 13,758 Posts
Default Range report

Well I should have taken more rounds, I easily got the 158 grains to 950 fps That's good enough but I think I have room for a little more.

Next time I will also take bucket full of wet pulp and check penetration. I've tried to make a custom bullet seater for these bullets and didn't have much luck, but I think I'll try again because it may help keep the bullet shoulder from expanding. I think I've got things going now and hope to be back with some data.

And I'm not talking rounds for snipers, but up close defense. Many people want 158 gr bullets in their .38s and .357s. Good grief, I don't see why people have to be so contrary. Constructive criticism positive or negative is more than welcome but I believe that if anything's been beat to death here, it's plain naysaying.

PS: I MIGHT be able to adjust the M die. That would be easier than anything.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 02-09-2018, 06:02 PM
gen3guy gen3guy is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 604
Likes: 21
Liked 660 Times in 284 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SA1911 View Post
Tell me about what you know of the "stopping power" of the 125 grain .357 Mag bullet.

Let me help you out: stopping power is the product of pulp fiction sold to those who had to believe nonsense. There is no such thing as a tactical handgun "manstopper". It's a fairy tale. At it's best, the .357 Mag is mediocre as a tactical handgun cartridge. And it ain't even mediocre when it's firing 125 grain bullets. Were I to use a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, it'd be loaded with the FBI Load: .38 Special 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P.
ok. I took the brow beating like a man.
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 02-09-2018, 07:16 PM
Chubbo Chubbo is offline
Member
FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,147
Likes: 5,053
Liked 4,959 Times in 1,303 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.

In conclusion I think that a bullet similar to a Speer 135 grain short barrel bullet similar to that in the .38 special version but weighing 165 gr for 9mm or 180 gr. for .40 S&W would most closely emulate the .45 ACPs effectiveness.

I've been loading 125 gr. 9mm bullet in the belief that that is a 'good compromise' in velocity and weight. After thinking this up, I'm wondering if a heavy bullet designed to expand at low velocity could be a more effective round, which would also apply to the .40 S&W.

IF this is true, it gives a lie (in the PRACTICAL world) to the "Less mass, high velocity" theory in favor of the "High mass, less velocity with a bullet designed for the job" theory.

At present, a commercially available bullet that would lean in this direction would be something like a 158 grain Speer Gold Dot, which is short of what I'm looking for, along with being designed for about 950 ft/sec in order to expand. If somebody cares to test this, it would at least tell us that this is the right direction. I also think that a heavy cast HPSWC would be a good test. I'm going to look around on the net to see what testing has been done.

Arguments? Questions? Comments? Conjecture? Am I full of mud????

UPDATE: I just watched a Youtube video of gelatin tests of a 9mm 147 gr Speer GD. 14" of penetration with expansion of about .59" (Wow). This idea just may pan out.
In answer to your question, "You can't"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bad shape don't make it old, old don't make it valuable cussedemgun The Lounge 12 02-05-2015 07:02 PM
Does modifying a RNL bullet potentially make it a better stopper? GatorFarmer Ammo 9 06-13-2012 12:16 AM
Does a bullet button make the M&P 15 California compliant? Sierra Steve 2nd Amendment Forum 4 12-01-2011 11:21 AM
Bullet strikes that make sparks in movies/TV P&R Fan The Lounge 30 05-23-2011 08:48 PM
Clothes make the man, but stocks make the revolver! PALADIN85020 The Lounge 3 12-12-2009 11:33 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:19 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)