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  #151  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:53 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....

I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.

Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.

As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.

A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition

They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.

The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.

Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.

Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.


Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely the lyman 158gr rn 358311.

We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
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  #152  
Old 02-21-2017, 01:06 AM
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The Contender is an accurate little gun... and according to the records shot pretty well. Better than the P-38 I shot at the time. Wish I still had it. WWII bring back..Holster and 2 mags. The 160s were sized at 357 and I remember pushing them into the chamber just slightly. Didn't expand for spit. Shot some factory ammo but no records of it in the book.. I still have 6 or 7 pistol bbls for the Contender including 41 mag 38/357 45 auto 44 mag and a 45 Colt as well as the 9mm. The rest are mostly rifle rounds like the 22H 218 Bee. I tried pushing the 45 auto in the Contender and was surprised how much faster it could be pushed... and never blew a primer. Lead bullets in the high vel loadings would really lead the bore though. I even loaded some 45 auto with 2400...lead bullets. Think I still have a box or so left somewhere. Ok performers in the Contender... not in an auto. Bbl length is 8 inches on the 45
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  #153  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.

### Ah Ha Confusion of terms. Man we've about gotten rid of the CUP/PSI thing, but how about all this other conflicting stuff.

Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.

### Am I making this up or do some people (for whatever reason) measure revolver barrels from the recoil plate to the tip of the barrel?????

As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.

### Well said.

A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition


They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.

### i should have known to follow their lead.

The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.

Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.

### That's good info. The short barrels used in SD complicate this a LOT more than I thought it would.



Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.


Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely th lyman 158gr rn 358311.

### Not at all. I guess it was worth this exercise for you to bring that knowledge out into the open.

We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.

Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'

NOW it's getting weird.
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  #154  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:16 PM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
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  #155  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:14 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.

Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'

NOW it's getting weird.
...
Actually what they may call us is the MAD re-inventors. We re-invent because we don't believe what has been tried and found to not work. Sometimes we actually stumble onto something that does seem to work ...a little anyway. I did try what you are letting run wild in your imagination many years ago. I tried the 2 piece bullets the hollowpointers the just a little more powder and found when you get to the point of no more returns it is uh-oh time. I found you could make the 45 perform better both ACP and Colt..the 44 sp too. But they were all lower pressure rounds and were able to be bumped up. even the 38 Sp...The Super already had a bit heavier bullets than the Parabellum but was in the same pressure range so no real joy there. RW don't even think of what you have been doing as a failure.. I had fun trying all this stuff..bet you have too! and by the way..That fold up gun idea has some merit...But gotta put that on hold..my wife(the bad one) just brought me the beater from the mixer..made icing for the cake. It is my job to clean the beater. Darn

I guess she ain't ALL bad

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  #156  
Old 02-22-2017, 07:47 AM
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Default Why sorry????

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Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
I don't understand why you are sorry. You had the best explanation and experience of why it didn't pan out. Simple answer. As usual the relationships that I was counting on weren't linear, especially those between a former black powder cartridges and modern higher pressure small cased cartridges ESPECIALLY in short barrels with short chambers. I've rad data books that said about a particular cartridgefv

I'm gonna do some more testing or this load, with different guns, just to see the effect. I've got a lot of very nice from Xtreme 165 gr. plated RN. Their plated bullets are almost jacketed.

I think I succeeded in proving that a 9mm could be made to act like a .38 with heavy bullets, but not they they could act like a .45. That part was a flop. I'm still a believer in heavier bullets but not to that extreme. A 147 gr. 9mm shoots very nicely.

As far as the brainstorming, it may sound silly, but it works best for me in thinking 'out of the box'. It doesn't hurt.

I always wanted to recover spent bullets. I'd like to do more of it. I've got an idea for producing gelatin blocks by having just one loaf pan or two in the refrigerator at a time. If you preserve it or don't let it sit around too long, it should be ok if kept cool. Since I'm retired I've got time.

BTW I'm a chess person.
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  #157  
Old 02-25-2017, 08:08 PM
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Vihtavuori claims a load of 3N38 will push a 147gn bullet at 1200FPS ... that should do it.
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  #158  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:05 AM
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Default They scored several hits....

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Or just shoot better under stress. Itwas as much a training/skill failure as 9mm bullet failure.
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:24 AM
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The problem is that they were fighting committed killers armed with long guns, using handguns.
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:03 PM
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I load the 9 using + P brass for steel
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1500 fps 124 gr
186 PF Smokin
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
The distance for most of the feds were across a car or two, not much of pistol skill for average shooters. There were far more tactical errors that accounted for what happened, including losing a primary weapon before the fight. Bigger bullets may or may not have helped.
Most handgun bullets will penetrate todays cars with ease as long as they don't hit solid steel. The 223 would fail in the same instance. Though I agree, rifles against rifles are always better, they out numbered the two bad guys & only one had a rifle. Better shooting certainly would have made a diff, bigger bullets, maybe not.
I shoot with LE guys almost every week, some are quite good, most are just not up to skill level required to win such a fight. They rely on numbers & luck, not skill. Skill comes with training & a lot of continued dynamic practice.
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  #162  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:43 PM
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Default Time for phase 2....

I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:47 PM
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It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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And Stacey Lim (LAPD) was shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum load and survived.

Back in the late 80's the FBI determined that the most reliable man stopper was a 10mm round at about 850 fps which lead directly to the .40 S&W round.

I wish someone would tell my department that the FBI theory has now been debunked. They still insist on a 148 gn 9mm load in a G17 where the barrel is optimised for 115-125 gn projectiles.

Accuracy is horrible.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:01 PM
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While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
Dry paper is really hard on a bullet, doesnt tell you anything about expansion characteristics. Bullet companies used wetpack to test exoansion for years prior to ballistic gel.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:41 PM
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I ignore all the hype, and carry what I want to carry. And never lose sleep what someone else carries. Government set their own rules, doesn't concern me, unless they are wasting my money.

Depending on where, or what I am doing my carry varies, and so does caliber.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:47 PM
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To Forrest-

I like the Idea of getting TC barrels to test the accuracy of pistol calibers. That would save a lot of time and bullets, since I can't shoot "regular" handguns decent off a bag. Plus, one day I'm on and one day I can't hold a group. The TC seems like it would negate most of this.

Thanks for the good suggestion.
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.
My inbox had an e-mail from Xtreme this a.m. with RN 165gr 9mm bullets ON SALE... Perhaps these may aid you in your heavier 9mm bullet quest?

Now you get to develop some load data...?

Cheers!

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Old 05-08-2017, 10:05 AM
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OMG, my head hurts after reading all these opinions...lol
All i have to say is, why hit somebody with a prius when you can hit them with a tractor trailer truck (9mm vs 45)
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:36 AM
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Yesterday, my preference was to blowup one gallon milk jugs full of colored water, and caps tightly sealed......................with the 45 over the 9mm.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:32 PM
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Default I got slowed down but here is my plan...

I hurt my back badly last week and I have hernia surgery, but I got a very nice batch of SWCHPs, but in 158 grain. I'm also saving up newsprint. When I recover from these two maladies I'll get some data and do some wet newsprint testing.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.
Your hypothesis is flawed, and your conclusions are inaccurate.

But the 9mm bullet would need to expand to .452 before it reaches the target to have the same initial frontal impact area as 45 ball, and somehow its profile. Bullets don't necessarily expand to full diameter the instant they strike a soft target. From that point of view, it would also need to gain 65 grains in weight somehow to equal the 45s penetration in said soft target.

As for the 40 S&W, its tombstone will read something like "Here lies the 40 S&W, designed to equal the performance of the 45 ACP, and the convenience of the 9mm. It failed in both regards by only offering the major drawbacks of both cartridges with none of the benefits of either".
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