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Old 12-31-2016, 04:05 AM
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Default How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.

In conclusion I think that a bullet similar to a Speer 135 grain short barrel bullet similar to that in the .38 special version but weighing 165 gr for 9mm or 180 gr. for .40 S&W would most closely emulate the .45 ACPs effectiveness.

I've been loading 125 gr. 9mm bullet in the belief that that is a 'good compromise' in velocity and weight. After thinking this up, I'm wondering if a heavy bullet designed to expand at low velocity could be a more effective round, which would also apply to the .40 S&W.

IF this is true, it gives a lie (in the PRACTICAL world) to the "Less mass, high velocity" theory in favor of the "High mass, less velocity with a bullet designed for the job" theory.

At present, a commercially available bullet that would lean in this direction would be something like a 158 grain Speer Gold Dot, which is short of what I'm looking for, along with being designed for about 950 ft/sec in order to expand. If somebody cares to test this, it would at least tell us that this is the right direction. I also think that a heavy cast HPSWC would be a good test. I'm going to look around on the net to see what testing has been done.

Arguments? Questions? Comments? Conjecture? Am I full of mud????

UPDATE: I just watched a Youtube video of gelatin tests of a 9mm 147 gr Speer GD. 14" of penetration with expansion of about .59" (Wow). This idea just may pan out.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:39 AM
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Did the you tube vid give the load data for the 147 gr gold dot used and the distance from the gelatin?
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Old 12-31-2016, 05:05 AM
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My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.
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Old 12-31-2016, 06:55 AM
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You're doing way too much thinking. By now it would seem that the old
nonsense that all bullet wounds must be made by projectiles of at
least .450" to have any effect would have been put to rest. But I guess
not.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:25 AM
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Think you are trying to put a saddle on a race horse.
The key to reliable expansion is velocity and you probably need more powder capacity to achieve the velocity necessary to have a 165 grain bullet expand reliably.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:34 AM
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I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:16 AM
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I used to carry a S&W 9mm auto. I now carry a S&W M&P 45. I use hollow points. I didn't over think the issue of 9mm vs 45acp. I just got a 45.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.
11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:45 PM
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This idea of slow heavy bullets in 9mm/.38 caliber cartridges was cutting edge technical thinking ..........by the British in WWI.
It works as well as it ever did, but has been surpassed by modern defense bullets and powders in energy, keeping necessary penetration.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:46 PM
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"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:59 PM
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It is very easy to make a 9mm perform like a .45. Increase it's diameter by about 0.097 inches.
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:01 PM
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In my opinion, the modern 9mm defense loads are even better than .45's. They penetrate just as deep, expand just about as much and you can fit more into a magazine.
Back in the day, the .45 was the thing, but today not so. The modern 9X19 is as or more lethal on a person as any .45 has ever been.
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:29 PM
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There are 158, 160 and 165gr 9mm bullets out there ..........

The only problem is.........
a little 3.5" 9mm barrel is not going to cut the mustard getting
to the world of the .45 cal. with bullets larger than the 147gr.

Good luck.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:36 PM
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While any 9mm may expand, a 45 will never shrink
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
You can't.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:02 PM
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It's simple. You do what the Govt (FBI) did)

You start with a 38 special. Then after that doesn't work. You go to 9mm. Heck, that is no good. Then go to 10mm. Well that is to potent, So you scale back to the 40 SW. Now that is to snappy for lots of recruits, so you go back back to the 9mm.

I may have the order messed up, but something like that.

The ballistics guys will calculate it for you.

Smaller bullet going fast or bigger one going slower.?

Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:21 PM
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Perhaps the best way to ask this is how to get the most out of a 9mm.

I don't get into a lot of specifics, but I have no doubt that a good 9mm SD load will fill the bill for self defense. Most of the detractions of 9mm are based on military use, which mandates FMJ ammo.

Take a look at these:

Inceptor Preferred Defense | Polycase Ammunition

The bullets are available for reloading in both the composite and solid copper. They don't expand, but the shape produces a very large wound channel with excellent penetration. If I were determined to use a .380 for SD, I would be looking really hard at these bullets.

And don't forget that accuracy trumps caliber every time.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:44 PM
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Default How is it nonsense.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
You're doing way too much thinking. By now it would seem that the old
nonsense that all bullet wounds must be made by projectiles of at
least .450" to have any effect would have been put to rest. But I guess
not.
I didn't say it was a requirement, but in order to duplicate a .45 non-expanding bullet, a 9mm would have to expand to about .45 " in diameter and the Gold Dot tests show that is possible. And again, a Gold Dot short barrel design expands around 850 which is the target velocity for our 9mm come .45. I just need one in .45. Lacking that I think that a cast HPSWC would be good for experimenting. Also, I hear and read all the time where people say a .45 is a very good stopper in a handgun. if that's nonsense, can you tell me why and tell me where I'm mistaken and maybe what ISN'T nonsense? If I'm full of mud, can you set me straight?

I do appreciate the critical thinking.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
It's simple. You do what the Govt (FBI) did)

You start with a 38 special. Then after that doesn't work. You go to 9mm. Heck, that is no good. Then go to 10mm. Well that is to potent, So you scale back to the 40 SW. Now that is to snappy for lots of recruits, so you go back back to the 9mm.

I may have the order messed up, but something like that.

The ballistics guys will calculate it for you.

Smaller bullet going fast or bigger one going slower.?

Somewhere there is something that will work if you actually hit the target!
If you read what one of THE FBI guys here wrote, the 10 was never loaded all that hot. Something like 950fps. It was never a super potent round. Certainly not what everyone on the internet claims

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Old 12-31-2016, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I didn't say it was a requirement, but in order to duplicate a .45 non-expanding bullet, a 9mm would have to expand to about .45 " in diameter and the Gold Dot tests show that is possible. And again, a Gold Dot short barrel design expands around 850 which is the target velocity for our 9mm come .45. I just need one in .45. Lacking that I think that a cast HPSWC would be good for experimenting. Also, I hear and read all the time where people say a .45 is a very good stopper in a handgun. if that's nonsense, can you tell me why and tell me where I'm mistaken and maybe what ISN'T nonsense? If I'm full of mud, can you set me straight?

I do appreciate the critical thinking.
It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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Old 12-31-2016, 05:04 PM
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Default They are standard pressure factory....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistered View Post
Did the you tube vid give the load data for the 147 gr gold dot used and the distance from the gelatin?
The test velocity was around 970 ft/sec and the factory says that they are about 985 fps. Which tells me that I can increase the weight of the bullet some and still get the target velocity of around 830 fr/sec. 5 grains of Power Pistol can get the 147 gr up to 975 ft/c se out of a 4" barrel. So a 165 gr. bullet would probably be loadable to 830 fps.

Here's the video I watched:


Oh, the distance is 10' through calibrated gel and 4 layers of denim.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:26 PM
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Default Which is why....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik View Post
If you read what one of THE FBI guys here wrote, the 10 was never loaded all that hot. Something like 950fps. It was never a super potent round. Certainly not what everyone on the internet claims

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Which is why they figured they could make the .40 from the same 10mm cartridge. I guess it wasn't good having more gun to shoot a weaker round. They could have continued with the lower 10mm round but it was only 3/4 of its potential out of a beefier gun. Whatever, it lost popularity rather than gain it, while a LOT of people on this forum won't carry anything but a .45.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:29 PM
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Default I think that we are....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.
I think that we are on the same page, if I'm reading you right.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:32 PM
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Default More than that.......

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Originally Posted by ralph7 View Post
Think you are trying to put a saddle on a race horse.
The key to reliable expansion is velocity and you probably need more powder capacity to achieve the velocity necessary to have a 165 grain bullet expand reliably.
You are right, but bullet design has as much to do with it. If a 'short barrel' bullet can be designed for .38 special, that expands at 800-900 fps a heavier 9mm could be made to expand at around 950 fps also
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:38 PM
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Default One thing that's missing is....

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Originally Posted by cadmike View Post
I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.
One thing that is missing in the .45 is capacity. It's generally accepted that 6 rounds out of a revolver or 8 rounds out of an ACP wasn't enough 'firepower'. I can get 17 9mm cartridges in my third gen 9mm. But you're right, if they can make a Shield .45, they can make a plastic .45 full size that would save some weight to carry.

I think (to me at least) that maximizing the effectiveness of the 9mm is worth running down. The 'philosophies' that we hear about bullet mass/velocity MAY favor the heavy, slow round, since it works so well in the .45. If a little can be added to the weight and expanded size of the 9mm and it REALLY makes a difference over shooting 115 gr, 124 or 157 grain ammo out of a 9mm, I'd like to know it.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:49 PM
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Default The bullet in the video..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckford View Post
11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.
Thanks for the support. The bullets in the video penetrated 14" reliably through 4 layers denim and gelatine AND expanded to over a 1/2" in diam. That tells me something.

So again, what I would like to try is a 165 gr 9mm bullet that is designed to expand at 830 fps.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:51 PM
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Default I don't get this.....

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Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.
A 9mm fmj will be 9mm after it's expended. A jhp 9mm designed to expand at low velocity will equal a .45 in dia. except for being lighter. (You can't fix EVERYTHING)
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:00 PM
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Default I agree that they have improved..

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In my opinion, the modern 9mm defense loads are even better than .45's. They penetrate just as deep, expand just about as much and you can fit more into a magazine.
Back in the day, the .45 was the thing, but today not so. The modern 9X19 is as or more lethal on a person as any .45 has ever been.
Modern 9mm are better than they were, but if the proposed bullet would outperform other 9mm rounds in SD situations, why not improve it? Speer now makes a .45 caliber Gold Dot that is better than an fmj ever was. Why not get as close or surpass that with a 9mm if possible.

I keep hearing that no handguns give adequate performance especially compared with a rifle. I'm not going to carry a rifle, so I'd like my carry round to be as efficient as it can be made without adding any more to what you carry than about 20 grains of lead/bullet.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:02 PM
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Default I'm trying to PREVENT....

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"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.
I'm trying to prevent the 9mm from passing through and instead using its energy to penetrate AND generate a large wound channel. A wound channel that is as big as the .FMJ .45 bullet makes.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:05 PM
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Default People have been shot.....

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It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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People have been shot with a Buffalo rifle and lived. This doesn't take good placement out of the picture. It just increases the wound channel more than that of an ordinary 9mm while maintaining adequate penetration.

Do you think that the story of the cop shot six times in the face is a typical example? NOTHING is a sure thing, but if it increases chances of boosting 'stopping power', it still seems worthwhile.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:13 PM
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Default The data tables say.....

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Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
There are 158, 160 and 165gr 9mm bullets out there ..........

The only problem is.........
a little 3.5" 9mm barrel is not going to cut the mustard getting
to the world of the .45 cal. with bullets larger than the 147gr.

Good luck.
The data tables indicate that a 9mm could push a somewhat heavier bullet to 830 fps, which is equal to the .45. If the bullet is built to expand at that velocity (and we know that a 147 grain bullet can expand to 1/2" out of a 9mm) what's to lose?
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:16 PM
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Default I disagree....

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You can't.
I disagree. You may not get it to exactly equal to a .45 but if you increase the effectiveness of the 9mm to closer to that a .45, you have a better 9mm bullet.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:21 PM
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Default I'd definitely like to hear.....

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11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.
I'd definitely like to hear what you or anybody else comes up with. I think that the 'theory' is sound and will carry over into the practical world.

Like I said, I may be able to come up with some 165 grain SWC hollow points or something close (Maybe a .38 bullet sized down) to at least test the water to see whether this holds up or will fall flat on its face.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:28 PM
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Default The construction....

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This idea of slow heavy bullets in 9mm/.38 caliber cartridges was cutting edge technical thinking ..........by the British in WWI.
It works as well as it ever did, but has been surpassed by modern defense bullets and powders in energy, keeping necessary penetration.
OK, it's an old idea. But the new construction and the designed expansion of bullets at certain velocities as well as new powders, may breathe new lie into it.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:56 PM
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Do all these things.. HPs at speeds as fast as you can(at reasonable pressaures in the 9) and you get a 9 to almost equal a 45. Do the same things with the 45 auto(+P). You still have a superior round This question has been asked by we shooters since the early 1900s. The question is STILL being asked. Why?? because with physics not having changed if you can make the 9 a great defensive round..the 45 can still be made better. BTW they'll both kill the heck out of you. Working as a paramedic we had a few shooting victims who lived after being shot in deadly parts of their bodies with the 9mm. Only had one 45 victim and he WAS DRT. My wife carries a 9mm but it is loaded with 147 gr Fed Hydrashocks. In my opinion about as good as it gets with factory loads commonly available..and they are subsonic. I also carry them in my 639 and 1911 9mm. If I carry a 45(most of the time) I also carry a big ol hollowpoint 230 gr Win Silvertip or a Rem HP. I also have carried 22 revolvers and sitting next to me on the table is a 686 4 inch gun. I do prefer the 45 mainly because I have carried one since before I was 18. Carried 2 while in SE Asia all those years ago. I do not ever want to be shot with anything. In centerfire handgun I do not carry ball ammo.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik View Post
It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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Everything handheld has failed to stop an attack at some point. There are no sure things. All we can do is increase the odds. Most of the time, a bigger bullet delivers a bigger hole, but modern jhp get the 9mm up off its knees.
As to the fbi 12" min, sure, i want more. We all want a bullet that goes 60cal + and penetrate more, but that 12" min will do in most instances. I prefer a bullet to exit, but in a crowd, not ideal.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:45 PM
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While I agree that the effectiveness of .45 ACP has been way over-hyped the poor performance of 9mm has likewise been greatly exaggerated.

To answer the original question though, DOUBLE-TAP!
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:20 AM
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Default I prefer.....

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Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
While I agree that the effectiveness of .45 ACP has been way over-hyped the poor performance of 9mm has likewise been greatly exaggerated.

To answer the original question though, DOUBLE-TAP!
I prefer the 'Mozambique'. I always said that I was never going to pull the trigger just once.
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:21 AM
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good to see you are thinking ....
its a whole big old wad of math involving bore, sectional density, the results of Jebbadiahs dice roll and a fair portion of the laws of physics that nobody seems to entirely agree on.

Bore is a factor that will need to be compensated for
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:24 AM
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Default Exactly, even having a .44 magnum.....

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Everything handheld has failed to stop an attack at some point. There are no sure things. All we can do is increase the odds. Most of the tome, a bogger bullet delivers a bigger hole, but modern jhp get the 9mm up off its knees.
As to the fbi 12" min, sure, i want more. We all want a bullet that goes 60cal + and penetrate more, but that 12" min will do in most instances. I prefer a bullet to exit, but in a crowd, not ideal.

... nothing guarantees success, it just improves your chances. The bullet in the video was darn close to .60 cal, as it expanded into a really nice 'flower'. And it also went 14". I don't think a bullet like that or the one I put out there would tend to overpenetrate, but it would sure do a number in a better than half inch dia hole.
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:34 AM
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Default That hits the nail....

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Do all these things.. HPs at speeds as fast as you can(at reasonable pressaures in the 9) and you get a 9 to almost equal a 45. Do the same things with the 45 auto(+P). You still have a superior round This question has been asked by we shooters since the early 1900s. The question is STILL being asked. Why?? because with physics not having changed if you can make the 9 a great defensive round..the 45 can still be made better. BTW they'll both kill the heck out of you. Working as a paramedic we had a few shooting victims who lived after being shot in deadly parts of their bodies with the 9mm. Only had one 45 victim and he WAS DRT. My wife carries a 9mm but it is loaded with 147 gr Fed Hydrashocks. In my opinion about as good as it gets with factory loads commonly available..and they are subsonic. I also carry them in my 639 and 1911 9mm. If I carry a 45(most of the time) I also carry a big ol hollowpoint 230 gr Win Silvertip or a Rem HP. I also have carried 22 revolvers and sitting next to me on the table is a 686 4 inch gun. I do prefer the 45 mainly because I have carried one since before I was 18. Carried 2 while in SE Asia all those years ago. I do not ever want to be shot with anything. In centerfire handgun I do not carry ball ammo.
It's all about improving what is out there. The 9mm, being a high pressure round in a closed barrel, has the power to get a big bullet moving. And most have a 3"-4" barrel, especially service weapons. If we were talking about .38 snubs, I'd think it was bunk, because they can barely get a 158 grain bullet up to the needed velocity and whatever you stack on that isn't going to improve anything. It's topped out.
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:34 AM
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Actually the facts are that the 9mm IS tapped out. You can't raise pressures on it appreciably. You can only get so much velocity out of a heavier bullet. Heavy bullet HP in a 9 is really only about a 150 gr. The 45 can be pushed to the same velocity close to a 1000 ft per with a 230 gr HP bullet. Do what you may and say what you will... get the same bullet reactions at the terminal end and the 45 will be superior. The only reason I see for the 9mm to be used so much by police forces is because it is about the most recoil that the people that must use it to defend themselves and us can haldle. On an average...and they can get more rounds in the handgun..but I have had 14 round 45s too. The 9 has the bad reputation it does because it earned it. But the 45's reputation is also a bit overhyped...but only with the ball ammo. It is still a much bigger hole..apples to apples
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Arguments? Questions? Comments? Conjecture? Am I full of mud????
What's the objective of your exercise? Are you looking to merely replicate the ballistic performance of a 45 ACP bullet using a hypothetical 9mm bullet or are you trying to approximate the effect on the human body of being shot with a 45 ACP using a 9mm bullet?
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:38 AM
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Default The Nyclad.....

The Nyclad was an idea that didn't sell. With excellent coatings people that longed for the now rare Nyclads can simulate them with a soft HPSWC. Sometimes, a few other things need to change before something is accepted.
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:41 AM
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Default I'm not proposing pressure change.....

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Actually the facts are that the 9mm IS tapped out. You can't raise pressures on it appreciably. You can only get so much velocity out of a heavier bullet. Heavy bullet HP in a 9 is really only about a 150 gr. The 45 can be pushed to the same velocity close to a 1000 ft per with a 230 gr HP bullet. Do what you may and say what you will... get the same bullet reactions at the terminal end and the 45 will be superior. The only reason I see for the 9mm to be used so much by police forces is because it is about the most recoil that the people that must use it to defend themselves and us can haldle. On an average...and they can get more rounds in the handgun..but I have had 14 round 45s too. The 9 has the bad reputation it does because it earned it. But the 45's reputation is also a bit overhyped...but only with the ball ammo. It is still a much bigger hole..apples to apples
I'm not looking for higher pressure. The data tables say that a bullet that is somewhat heavier than commonly available 9mm bullets can be shot at a similar velocity to a .45. That's more lead to expand and more weight for penetration IF the bullet is designed to expand at that velocity. This has already been done with the 'short barrel' Speer bullets. They are designed to expand at the velocities a .38 snub can achieve.
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:42 AM
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I own a Para Long Slide double stack 45 ACP. 16 Rounds of 45 ACP anything should win all the above arguments. There are 6 hi-cap mags to go with it, if 91 rounds can't win the street war, we should all stay home.

Than there is the P16-40 that gives 17 rounds in the gun + 16 round mags. Coming in last, is the Para P18-9 MM with 19 rounds in the gun + 18 round mags.

Try that with your 5-shot J-frame. At least you won't be walking tilted over!
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:50 AM
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Default I'm saying....

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What's the objective of your exercise? Are you looking to merely replicate the ballistic performance of a 45 ACP bullet using a hypothetical 9mm bullet or are you trying to approximate the effect on the human body of being shot with a 45 ACP using a 9mm bullet?
I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.

There are tons of people on this forum that feel underarmed with anything but a .45. The .45 has proven itself as a good man stopper for over 100 years whether it used expanding bullets or FMJs. I believe that a 9mm with some alterations could do almost as well as an FMJ .45 because the velocity is the same, the expanded diameter is the same. The weight is less but more than a typical 9mm for extra penetration without over penetration and extra material for big expansion. It's shown in the video that a 158 grain Gold Dot can get 14" penetration with an expanded diameter at least that of a .45 FMJ.

I'm looking for a similar test with a .45 FMJ for a penetration comparison.
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:16 AM
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Default There are 9mms...

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Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
I own a Para Long Slide double stack 45 ACP. 16 Rounds of 45 ACP anything should win all the above arguments. There are 6 hi-cap mags to go with it, if 91 rounds can't win the street war, we should all stay home.

Than there is the P16-40 that gives 17 rounds in the gun + 16 round mags. Coming in last, is the Para P18-9 MM with 19 rounds in the gun + 18 round mags.

Try that with your 5-shot J-frame. At least you won't be walking tilted over!
There are 9mm pistols with a capacity of 20 +1. CZ makes one. I do have two J frames and I figure (hope) that 5 shots will do in any scrape I would get into, besides being very carryable.
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Old 01-01-2017, 04:51 AM
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How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
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Default I think, that is I hope.....

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Originally Posted by venomballistics View Post
good to see you are thinking ....
its a whole big old wad of math involving bore, sectional density, the results of Jebbadiahs dice roll and a fair portion of the laws of physics that nobody seems to entirely agree on.

Bore is a factor that will need to be compensated for
I hope that the extra expansion from a heavier bullet that is designed to 'blow up' at that velocity will make up for bore. And pretty much limiting this to close range, SD work makes the math much easier.

I think in a battle situation it should have the effective range of a .45, being that it's moving at the same velocity and it's only proportioned a little longer than a typical bullet. i think that the long 'waterline' should actually help. That's a good point though. If this is viable, it would be cool to work out the SD and BC. Most importantly I expect that it would be effective in practical, real life encounters.

I should be able to work out a profie fairly easily. And make it look like a Gold Dot in the nose.
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Old 01-01-2017, 08:14 AM
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How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45 How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45  
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I didn't say it was a requirement, but in order to duplicate a .45 non-expanding bullet, a 9mm would have to expand to about .45 " in diameter. Also, I hear and read all the time where people say a .45 is a very good stopper in a handgun, if that's nonsense, can you tell me why and tell me where I'm mistaken and maybe what ISN'T nonsense?
It's hard to believe that anyone who is a serious handgunner
still wants to argue the supposed vast superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps. Numerous tests, including real world
shooting results indicate that there is little difference between
the two. So you hear and read all the time "where people say"
fill in the blank space here. Where you're mistaken here is in
the quality of your reading material. What isn't nonsense? The
9mm is the NATO handgun round and is likely to be so for
some time to come. Shot placement and penetration trumps
bullet dia 100% of the time. Shoot what you like and shoot
well.
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