45ACP Problems

[Ballistic147]

Well guys, this one has me stumped. So far I've only loaded a couple hundred 45's all with no problems. This week however has been different. I got the press (Hornady LNL AP) set up and ready to go. Ran one round through and only needed a slight adjustment on the seating die. Cartridge OAL was set to 1.255". Began loading and checking COL to find anything from 1.255" to 1.270" coming off the press. I'm using Everglades Ammo 230gr FMJ's. First thought is the ogive is varying from bullet to bullet. Randomly measured about 100 bullets for OAL and they were all +/- about .002" which I consider fine. Removed the seating stem from the die and measured it sitting on top of the bullet as if it was seating the bullet. Measurements taken here were all still +/- about .003" so obviously the ogive is pretty consistent. While it was apart I cleaned the seating die and gave up for the night.

Last night I gave it another shot. Winchester, RP, and CBC brass all came out 1.255" give or take a couple thousandths which is typical for this press. Federal, Fiocchi, and one other brand of brass would come out somewhere between 1.270" and 1.260" which I just can't figure out. Neck tension is good on all brass as I can put most of my weight on them and the bullet does not move. Crimp seems to be good and measures .468" to .469" on all of them. I've measured the brass and the OAL is all within .005" of each other. I checked the shell plate to make sure it's tight and also checked that the dies are tight in the press. No problems there.

I don't load a lot of 45's. I'm not a fan and don't own anything chambered in it but my wife and son do so I'm loading this up for them. Luckily they don't shoot a lot of it. Any ideas of what to look at? I have reloaded lots of mixed brass in 40 and 9 and never seen anything like this. I know mixed brass can cause other problems but it shouldn't on OAL. So, what am I missing here?

[JBnTx]

OAL will vary several thousands of an inch due to bullet variations.
It's normal.

Measure any box of factory ammo and you'll see what I mean.

[MichiganScott]

Hardness and thickness of brass varies by manufacturer. In my experience, it's common to see different COL's when loading mixed brass. Sort by headstamp and adjust your dies accordingly.

[Ballistic147]

JB, I completely understand a little variation. And yes, I've measured factory ammo. I'm not going for perfection. My 9's and 40's come off +/- .003" which I'm fine with. Heck, I'm happy with +/- .005" and on paper see absolutely no difference but coming out .015" off is a problem.

MichiganScott, from what I've found so far it does seem brass related but I've never run into this in any other calibers however that's the only thing that makes sense so far. Guess I need to sort it and try that to see if that will solve the issue. Thanks for the input!

[Twoboxer]

Just a sWAG at this lol . . .

While varying case lengths have nothing to do with varying COLs, my understanding is that they can cause crimping issues in many seat/crimp dies.

If you are seating & crimping in the same die (or crimping with eg something other than a Lee FCD) . . .

. . .is it possible the die is crimping before fully seating the bullet on some rounds and after fully seating on others due to different case lengths?

[SLT223]

Originally Posted by JBnTx

OAL will vary several thousands of an inch due to bullet variations.
It's normal.

Measure any box of factory ammo and you'll see what I mean.

x2 What JB pointed out. I drove myself near insanity with this cartridge when I started out until I compared it to factory ammo and realized it's normal. Apparenly no two ogives are exactly the same.

[arjay]

Using 200 gr lswc would be an easy solution

[JPucci]

I've run into this before when I started loading pistol cartridges and I found it to be to three main issues consistent with what the others have said.

1. Mixed brass thicknesses drive differences in neck tension.

2. I use a combo Hornady seat/taper crimp die and lengths of brass drive crimp variations.

3. My flare die in combo with mixed brass lengths also plays a role in seating due to variations in flare.

I load plated bullets, so I've got to be careful on the crimp. As a result, I had to play a bit to find what worked best and finally came to use a 0.471-0.472" crimp at most.

This gets me a plated bullet that doesn't suffer from setback, but isn't damaged by the crimp and my OAL's don't vary by more than +/-0.001 or 0.002 across all the typical brands of mixed brass.

A similarly mild crimp works for me on 40's, 44 magnums, and 9's.

[gregintenn]

LOL!

When I first bought them, I adjusted my 45 acp bullet seating die to just touch a factory loaded round. A little further adjustment was required to get a satisfactory crimp, then no further adjustment has been necessary. Just load em and shoot em. Don't drive yourself crazy with inconsequential measurements.

[fredj338]

Make sure the shell plate is snug. When you set the seating depth, have the shell plate full. It matters on the Dillon, I would think the same on the LNL.

[revolver_ph]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Make sure the shell plate is snug. When you set the seating depth, have the shell plate full. It matters on the Dillon, I would think the same on the LNL.

Yes, it makes a bit of a difference on the LNL as well.

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Make sure the shell plate is snug. When you set the seating depth, have the shell plate full. It matters on the Dillon, I would think the same on the LNL.

Originally Posted by revolver_ph

Yes, it makes a bit of a difference on the LNL as well.

I also have a LNL press and found out this fact on my own. I used to run one case through the press and get everything perfectly set up: powder, and bullet seating OAL. Once I started running with a full shell plate the OAL would be way off. So it does make a big difference, why I am not sure.

I am loading 45 ACP for Bullseye competition and I have found that the Dillon seating die is by far the most accurate when it comes to setting OAL. I am using 1.250" for all of my loads. I also am using a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die that does a final sizing of the case and makes the rounds perfect every time.

[Ballistic147]

First off, thanks to everyone for the input! Now to clarify on my original post. I'm not worried about every single bullet being the same OAL. My goal is +/- .005" and honestly I normally get better than that. What does worry me is that I'm getting +/- .015" on mixed brass 45's so something has to be wrong.

Before posting I had already checked the shell plate to make sure it was tight as well as making sure the seating die was tight in the press. Been down both of those roads already! I do typically see a slight OAL difference between a full plate and a single round but that has always been .006" at best.

Tonight I have double checked my crimp which is .468" to .469" measured right at the case mouth. It actually measures the same if you drop down on the case a little so I'm not over crimping. Just loaded two dummy rounds with .008" difference in case length and the crimp measured the same on both. I do have a very slight bulge from the bullet but only .001" to .002" at the most. For me this is completely normal as I see it on pretty much everything I load.

Last night I loaded 100 rounds. Picking through the brass the Winchester, RP, and CBC all came out within a few thousandths of each other but Federal and a few others would come out way longer. Again, I don't sweat a little variation but .015" is way too much. So far I've loaded about 6k handgun rounds all of which were mixed brass and never seen this much variance in OAL until now. I'll keep playing around and hopefully figure this one out.

[fredj338]

I wouldn't even sweat 0.015", really, it isn't affecting anything. My OAL with Dillon dies on a 650 are pretty consistent, +/- 0.005". SOme wil get longer, but not a big deal. I seat & crimp in separate steps & always used mixed range brass. My better guns will shoot under 2" @ 25yds offhand, if I have a good day.

[Twoboxer]

Originally Posted by Lee in Quartzsite

I also have a LNL press and found out this fact on my own. I used to run one case through the press and get everything perfectly set up: powder, and bullet seating OAL. Once I started running with a full shell plate the OAL would be way off. So it does make a big difference, why I am not sure.. . .

My theory: The LnL's subplate is attached to the ram assembly by two screws, one on either side of the ram tube. Let's call those locations 3 and 9 o'clock. The sizing die would then be located at nearly 12 and the bullet seater at nearly 6 on that clock.

If you set COL without a case going through the sizing die, the COL when there IS a case being resized will be shorter. It happens because the subplate will be pushed down on the sizing die side by sizing resistance, raising the seating die side, seating the bullet deeper.

To me the real question is why they didn't use 3 or 4 screws Maybe given the need for some manufacturing tolerances it would't make any difference.

[Engineer1911]

On your seating die, remove the Round Nose seater stem, measure the over all length of the seater stem, and store it in the die box.

Go buy a hex head machine bolt the same length and thread pitch / pattern as your seater stem. For RCBS dies, I use a 1/4" 28 TPI x 2" long bolt. Chuck the bolt in an electric drill (or a lathe), hold a coarse flat file against the side of the bolt head and remove the corners of the hex head so it is round.

Use a fine mill file to make the top of the bolt head smooth. Use a 32 TPI hacksaw blade to cut a screw driver slot in the threaded end of the bolt to fit a 3/16 screw driver blade. Install the modified bolt into your seater die so the bolt head is inside the die, and the bolt threads stick out the top. Your old lock nut will still work.

You have just made a "dead-nuts" seater stem that seats any profile bullet to the exact ± 0.002" over all length you want. This seater stem isn't pretty but it works, its cheap, and you can make one for every pistol seating die.

EDIT: Your home made seating stem is a round, flat-head bolt with a hacksaw slot cut into the thread end for a screw driver tip to fit so the bolt can be screwed out of the seater die. The dimension across the corners of the bolt must be less than bullet diameter.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

On you seating die, remove the Round Nose seater stem, measure the over all length of the seater stem, and store it in the die box.

Go buy a hex head machine bolt the same length and thread pitch / pattern as your seater stem. For RCBS dies, I use a 1/4" 28 TPI x 2" long bolt. Chuck the bolt in an electric drill (or a lathe), hold a coarse flat file against the side of the bolt head and remove the corners of the hex head so it is round.

Use a fine mill file to make the top of the bolt head smooth. Use a 32 TPI hacksaw blade to cut a screw driver slot in the threaded end of the bolt to fit a 3/16 screw driver blade. Install the modified bolt into your seater die so the bolt head is inside the die, and the bolt threads stick out the top. Your old lock nut will still work.

You have just made a "dead-nuts" seater stem that seats any profile bullet to the exact ± 0.002" over all length you want. This seater stem isn't pretty but it works, its cheap, and you can make one for every pistol seating die.

Would love to see a pic of one!

One thing I have never understood is the statement that different brass length or thickness affects the COL, assuming you are not crimping in the same step, which I can see might stop the seating process. The distance from the seating plug to the shell plate is fixed so the COL should always be the same regardless of the brass length. What am I missing?

[Carrier]

On my LNL I set oal with a shell in all stations. The last 3 rounds of a run will always be between .005" to .008" shorter. I have been thinking of doing the shim mod to the subplate but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Has anyone done that to see if it makes a difference?

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by flyrobb

Would love to see a pic of one!

One thing I have never understood is the statement that different brass length or thickness affects the COL, assuming you are not crimping in the same step, which I can see might stop the seating process. The distance from the seating plug to the shell plate is fixed so the COL should always be the same regardless of the brass length. What am I missing?

Thicker brass will resist bullet seating & deform the bullet nose. There can also be a slight springback. You will always have greater oal variation woth mixed brass.

[Twoboxer]

Originally Posted by flyrobb

. . . The distance from the seating plug to the shell plate is fixed so the COL should always be the same regardless of the brass length. What am I missing?

As Sherlock said . . . well, never mind.

The answer was given above . . . the subplate moves.

[noylj]

Who cares?
Unless you are shooting well beyond 50 yards, COL doesn't matter--other than if it is a lot shorter (say more than 0.100" shorter), it can cause pressure problems.
First, get a custom seating plug that only contacts the bullet as low on the ogive as possible and doesn't come close to touching the meplat.
Two, keep the shell plate full of cases so there are no variations at the beginning and end of the loading cycle.
Three, if the round passes the "plunk" test, go and shoot them and determine if they are causing you any problems.
Four, measure every bullet before you seat it to be sure that the COL variation is not just the bullet. While doing this, check the bullet diameter.
Five, get a comparator so you can measure COL at the ogive datum.

[Steve912]

Originally Posted by Carrier

On my LNL I set oal with a shell in all stations. The last 3 rounds of a run will always be between .005" to .008" shorter. I have been thinking of doing the shim mod to the subplate but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Has anyone done that to see if it makes a difference?

How about three deprimed cases, cut down 1/2" from mouth? Feed them into shell plate behind your 'last loaded' round?

[jonnnyboy]

I ran into a similar problem like this that had me stumped until I noticed that on some of my loads, I had left the primer just slightly proud. The differences in the case manufacturer had given me some cases that were tighter in the primer pocket and that made just a little difference in the force it took to seat the primer. It's an easy fix if that might be the problem. Hope you get it figured out.

[Ballistic147]

Originally Posted by jonnnyboy

I ran into a similar problem like this that had me stumped until I noticed that on some of my loads, I had left the primer just slightly proud. The differences in the case manufacturer had given me some cases that were tighter in the primer pocket and that made just a little difference in the force it took to seat the primer. It's an easy fix if that might be the problem. Hope you get it figured out.

Yep, checked the primers right after checking for a loose shell plate and die. That's one thing I like about the LNL is you really get a good feel on primer seating. I can generally tell if there's a problem by the feel of the lever.

Guess my years of building race engines for motocross gets the best of me sometimes. With those, .0005" could be the difference in finishing the race or seizing up on the first lap. I know what my press is capable of so now I just need to find out what's standing in the way of getting there. Thanks again to all for the input. It's greatly appreciated!

[Carrier]

Originally Posted by Steve912

How about three deprimed cases, cut down 1/2" from mouth? Feed them into shell plate behind your 'last loaded' round?

I just back seat die out a smidge when I get to those last rounds and get pretty close.

[flyrobb]

Originally Posted by fredj338

Thicker brass will resist bullet seating & deform the bullet nose. There can also be a slight springback. You will always have greater oal variation woth mixed brass.

I have certainly deformed a few HP bullet nose and that makes sense when seeing a shorter COL. The spring back would account for a longer COL and I hadn't thought of that.

I usually never see more that a couple thousands difference, +/- in COL (seating and crimping in separate steps) but the .015 variance the OP is experiencing seems excessive and would seem to point to a press problem, not case variances.

Another learning moment in the Reloading Forum.

[Ballistic147]

Originally Posted by flyrobb

I have certainly deformed a few HP bullet nose and that makes sense when seeing a shorter COL. The spring back would account for a longer COL and I hadn't thought of that.

I usually never see more that a couple thousands difference, +/- in COL (seating and crimping in separate steps) but the .015 variance the OP is experiencing seems excessive and would seem to point to a press problem, not case variances.

Another learning moment in the Reloading Forum.

You and I seem to think alike. A few weeks ago I loaded 1k 9mm's and last week I loaded up 500 rounds of 40S&W. All were loaded using mixed brass with the Hornady seat/crimp die and all came out +/- .003" within my established COL. This 45 thing still has me baffled. Probably do a run of 380's this weekend and see what happens.

[forestswin]

 Ballistic

I think your issue comes from differences in case wall thicknesses of the mixed brass.

Not sure, but I don’t think you said it so far, but are you combining seating and crimping in one step?

If so, with cases that have thicker walls – you may becrimping a little too much and the crimp may be stopping that last little amount of seating.

Another question is ----- have you measured the COL on the different cases before you crimp them?

Is the crimp changing the COL?

I mostly crimp at .470 so your crimp seems tight

a thought is adjusting the crimps according to the different case wall thicknesses – back off for the thicker case and tighten up for the thinner ones

Or back off on the crimp to .470 or so for all cases and see if they still have good bullet pull