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01-11-2017, 12:22 PM
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What is the pressure of the Skelton 44 Special?
7.5gr Unique/240-250 swc
I only have 2 sources that list pressure info for this and some of it is old, so i'm trying to triple check to be sure.
One has it listed at 11,200 psi, the other at 13,000 cup.
Anyone else have data that can confirm the ~11,000 psi?
Thanks
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01-11-2017, 01:33 PM
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Well , all the data I have found shows 6.9 grs of Unique is max allowed for the std. pressure of the 44 spl . I have read several times that his load was about 20Kpsi . I have shot it quite a bit in the past and it is a great combo . If I'm not mistaken though , Skeeter was using the " Keith " swc (245gr) Lyman 429421 , not just any 240 gr swc . He mentioned it often in his writings . It will make a difference in the pressure using his 7.5gr load of Unique . The Keith bullet has a shorter shank allowing a little more case volume vs the std. 240 gr swc .
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01-11-2017, 01:55 PM
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Lyman Manual #46 shows for the 44 Special and Unique:
250 gr. cast SWC #429244 w/ gas check - 6.6 grains =13,600 cup
245 gr. cast SWC #429421 plain base -6.9 grains = 13,300 cup
These were the maximum loads listed for these two bullets in the 44 special . I would bet money 7.5 gr. of Unique is going to exceed 11,000 cup by a good bit . I would shoot the 7.5 grain load in a 44 magnum revolver only, just to be on the safe side.
Skeeter and Elmer both liked to push the envelope.
Gary
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01-11-2017, 02:18 PM
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You also have to remember listed loads take into consideration of guns that are 100+ years old. It would not surprise me if they come out with a Ruger only type load.
Brian Pierce wrote an article on loading the 44spl in several tiers based on the gun it was going to be shot in. You might google it and see if you can find it, it is floating around out there.
I don't load hot 44spl, I have a 44mag. I do however run it right at the max of what is published.
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01-11-2017, 03:40 PM
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Thanks you guys, this is why I asked, just to be sure.
I was concerned those pressures were incorrect, seeing as this was a Skelton pet load.
One of the data sheets I was going off of listed the Keith swc and the other was a generic swc.
I'm trying to put together a 200-240 gr load that I can use in both my Marlin 1894 and a Charter Bulldog or my SAA clone. Something good for all around defense. My only limitations are the sidearms and i'd like to keep the pressures standard for safety.
I thought the Skelton load looked intriguing from the data I had found, but I am glad I got a consensus!
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01-11-2017, 04:40 PM
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nevermind.
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01-11-2017, 08:30 PM
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I've shot it in the Charter Bulldog, Cimarron P , Black Powder frame EMF Hartford , 1920's 2nd mod HE and a Colt Mod P . Never had a problem yet and don't expect to either. Skeeter shot it in Rugers and Colts both . This was his every day load(8.5 gr Unique) not his Hot load (17.0 gr 2400) for .44 Special . I shoot both 7.5 and the 8.5 .
Good enough for me .
Eddie
P.S. Lyman #45 the 1970 edition lists 5 gr starting with 8.0 gr max with either 429383 or 429421 cast in their #2 alloy . They did not list pressure . Max for the 429244 in #2 is listed as 7.9 gr . Speer #7 (1968) lists 9.0 gr max with a .429 diameter 250 gr cast which is what the original Keith 429421 is .
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01-11-2017, 11:36 PM
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I wouldn't push an antique top break, or a cheap pocket revolver. But I am sure any post war N-Frame will handle the 7.5 load with ease!
SAAMI is the industry "Watch Dog" and they have to look at every gun every made in 44 special. So as ALL guns get old, the reloading and factory ammo have less pressure. Many things changed in the 50 or so years between when the 44 Special and the 44 Remington Mag were introduced.
Ivan
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01-12-2017, 12:20 AM
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Are those on a par with his cow killer loads? What was he using when his revolver went full auto on him? I think the quote was "Aw Skeet, we didn't mean no harm, its just the first time we'd ever heard a revolver go full auto".
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01-12-2017, 03:56 AM
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A link to the 2005 Brian Pearce article complete with loads, loads for types of firearms.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...%20Special.pdf
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01-12-2017, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r
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Awesome article. I have that entire index Index of /44_Special_Articles but I never read the Brian Pearce article. Should have along time ago!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Kilgore
Thanks you guys, this is why I asked, just to be sure.
I was concerned those pressures were incorrect, seeing as this was a Skelton pet load.
One of the data sheets I was going off of listed the Keith swc and the other was a generic swc.
I'm trying to put together a 200-240 gr load that I can use in both my Marlin 1894 and a Charter Bulldog or my SAA clone. Something good for all around defense. My only limitations are the sidearms and i'd like to keep the pressures standard for safety.
I thought the Skelton load looked intriguing from the data I had found, but I am glad I got a consensus!
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I shoot only the .44 Special in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited. My favorite .44 Special load of a Lyman 250gr #429421 over 8.0gr of Power Pistol with standard primer works quite well in my Marlin. I have never run it over the chrono with the Marlin but suspect it should be around 1,250fps or so.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy4evr
Well , all the data I have found shows 6.9 grs of Unique is max allowed for the std. pressure of the 44 spl . I have read several times that his load was about 20Kpsi . I have shot it quite a bit in the past and it is a great combo . If I'm not mistaken though , Skeeter was using the " Keith " swc (245gr) Lyman 429421 , not just any 240 gr swc . He mentioned it often in his writings . It will make a difference in the pressure using his 7.5gr load of Unique . The Keith bullet has a shorter shank allowing a little more case volume vs the std. 240 gr swc .
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He used the 429244 first and went to the 429421 as he did not feel he needed the gas check and the Keith bullet was just as accurate as the Thompson bullet .
Eddie
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01-12-2017, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan Bob
I shoot only the .44 Special in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited. My favorite .44 Special load of a Lyman 250gr #429421 over 8.0gr of Power Pistol with standard primer works quite well in my Marlin. I have never run it over the chrono with the Marlin but suspect it should be around 1,250fps or so.
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Hey Bob, this looks like exactly what I'm in search of. From the Brian Pearce table it should be at 15,500psi and below which would work all around in my guns.
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01-13-2017, 09:01 PM
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Alliant shows the 8gr pp load in their on line manual as being SAAMI compliant. It gives the ballistics of the Skeeter load and I get some smoking of cases, showing extremely low pressure.
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01-27-2017, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher
.......... But I am sure any post war N-Frame will handle the 7.5 load with ease
Ivan
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Which war? My N-Frames are post WWI.
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01-27-2017, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Kilgore
7.5gr Unique/240-250 swc
One has it listed at 11,200 psi, the other at 13,000 cup.
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Handloader #236 list 429421 & Unique/6.9gr as a max. (15,500 PSI) standard pressure load. (Lyman lists it at 13.3K CUP)
It also lists 429421 & Unique/7.5gr as a "+P" in the second category. 951fps from 4-1/4" bbl or 989fps from a 7-1/2" bbl.
SAAMI spec are 15.5K PSI or 14K CUP max.
.
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01-27-2017, 05:13 AM
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The "Skeeter load" of 7.5 grains Unique over the Lyman 429421 kicks more than I like through my Bulldog. I have shot an awful lot of it through my post-WWII S&W and Colt revolvers. It seems not to bother them.
I load a "factory load duplication" for my Bulldog, Triple Lock and Second Model, 4.1 grains Bullseye or 5.5 grains Unique under the same cast bullet. I think the Bullseye load is more accurate. I intend to try out Winchester's W-231 (5.4 grains) as I have a lot of that. The traditional 246 grain RNL factory loads from both Winchester and Remington only chrono around 700 fps. I believe a large mouse could fart a **** that hard.
While I appreciate the concept of factories loading conservatively for old guns, the .44 Special doesn't seem to need that practice. The first .44 Special revolvers were the S&W N-frame Triple Lock and Colt New Service, very strong guns. I don't believe anybody chambered a revolver smaller or weaker that those until the early 1970's and the Charter Arms Bulldog. There never were any fragile, old break-tops to be taken into consideration.
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12-30-2018, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher
I wouldn't push an antique top break, or a cheap pocket revolver. But I am sure any post war N-Frame will handle the 7.5 load with ease!
SAMMI is the industry "Watch Dog" and they have to look at every gun every made in 44 special. So as ALL guns get old, the reloading and factory ammo have less pressure. Many things changed in the 50 or so years between when the 44 Special and the 44 Remington Mag were introduced.
Ivan
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Where would you find an "Antique Top Break or a Cheap Pocket Revolver " in .44 Special ?
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12-30-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddixie884
Alliant shows the 8gr pp load in their on line manual as being SAAMI compliant. It gives the ballistics of the Skeeter load and I get some smoking of cases, showing extremely low pressure.
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Not low pressure but not over either . Tighten up your Crimp ? Unique is a tad dirty and always has been but I love it and will never be without it .
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12-30-2018, 10:04 PM
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S&W made 44 Special top break revolvers in double action around the same time as Triple Lock and foreign copies. Taurus made a 5 shot DA revolver around K frame size.
Since this almost two year old thread came alive. Last summer I got a 629 snubby and Winchester 44 Special STHP's are very comfortable to shoot, but 240gr Factory 44Mag (1980 S&W ammo I had laying around) repeatedly rips skin off my thumb. I started loading 8.5 gr Unique 240 SWC, in 44 mag brass ( my personal name for it is 44 Special +P+, but you can't put it a weak Special by mistake.) This load has been quit usable in the high priced belly gun!
Ivan
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12-30-2018, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher
S&W made 44 Special top break revolvers in double action around the same time as Triple Lock and foreign copies. Taurus made a 5 shot DA revolver around K frame size.
Since this almost two year old thread came alive. Last summer I got a 629 snubby and Winchester 44 Special STHP's are very comfortable to shoot, but 240gr Factory 44Mag (1980 S&W ammo I had laying around) repeatedly rips skin off my thumb. I started loading 8.5 gr Unique 240 SWC, in 44 mag brass ( my personal name for it is 44 Special +P+, but you can't put it a weak Special by mistake.) This load has been quit usable in the high priced belly gun!
Ivan
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A slight disagreement with my esteemed colleague ITB - S & W made plenty of .44 Russian top-breaks, but no .44 Specials. There probably are foreign copies in that chambering.
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12-31-2018, 03:29 AM
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Hot 44spl loads flat out put the smack on anything they get a hold of. In short bbl'd firearms you have to get into the 10mm range of cartridges to either equal or exceed them.
Myself I like bullets in the 200gr to 220gr weight range in the snubnosed 44spl's. I do testing with different bullets in a 2 1/2" bbl'd ca bulldog every couple of years. This was my last tests shot over a chronograph into wetpack.
The next bullets I'll be testing. left, 200gr hp & 220gr cupped hp in the 2 1/2" bbl'd bulldog. right, 250gr hp in a 4" bbl'd s&w 29.
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12-31-2018, 08:18 AM
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I have a S&W 29-5 and I have a Ruger GP100 .44 special on order and the Ruger is built heavy duty.
Below the Ruger .44 Special cylinder that even Elmer Kieth would love.
And below the Smith .44 Magnum cylinder with thinner cylinder walls.
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12-31-2018, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r
Hot 44spl loads flat out put the smack on anything they get a hold of. In short bbl'd firearms you have to get into the 10mm range of cartridges to either equal or exceed them.
Myself I like bullets in the 200gr to 220gr weight range in the snubnosed 44spl's. I do testing with different bullets in a 2 1/2" bbl'd ca bulldog every couple of years. This was my last tests shot over a chronograph into wetpack.
The next bullets I'll be testing. left, 200gr hp & 220gr cupped hp in the 2 1/2" bbl'd bulldog. right, 250gr hp in a 4" bbl'd s&w 29.
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Are you casting these yourself? If so what mold/number?
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12-31-2018, 11:43 AM
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Nice pics, but since the distance from the lens and angles are different, hard to make a direct comparison. That the S&W has recessed chambers makes a visual difference too.
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12-31-2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. F.
Are you casting these yourself? If so what mold/number?
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Yes I cast them from MP (mihec) molds. I also cast these 44cal hp's from mihec molds.
The 220gr hbwc's are also cast in a mihec mold.
MP MOLDS - Bullet molds
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While I am not a Taurus fan by any stretch of the imagination I also do not consider them in the same class as a cheap pocket revolver . Taurus or Charter either one will handle the skeeter everyday load .
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07-04-2019, 11:46 AM
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The SAAMI rates the ammunition for the oldest and weakest firearm it will be fired in. Meaning newer firearms can be loaded warmer and take higher pressure.
Example below the 30-06, why can't the 30-06 be loaded to the same pressure as a .270 Win in a modern Remington 700.
I have a Ruger GP100 .44 special and a Ruger Blackhawk Flat Top Bisley 44 Special 4.62". And they both can be loaded warmer than SAAMI max pressure.
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07-04-2019, 02:38 PM
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I have shot the Skeeter load in a CA Bulldog enough to know it is accurate and a wrist twister.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher
I wouldn't push an antique top break, or a cheap pocket revolver. But I am sure any post war N-Frame will handle the 7.5 load with ease!
SAAMI is the industry "Watch Dog" and they have to look at every gun every made in 44 special. So as ALL guns get old, the reloading and factory ammo have less pressure. Many things changed in the 50 or so years between when the 44 Special and the 44 Remington Mag were introduced.
Ivan
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There is no such thing as a top-break .44 Special! Why would you ever mention such????? The only "cheap pocket revolver" in .44Special is the Charter Arms. These are completely capable of firing the Skelton load.
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07-11-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
The SAAMI rates the ammunition for the oldest and weakest firearm it will be fired in. Meaning newer firearms can be loaded warmer and take higher pressure.
Example below the 30-06, why can't the 30-06 be loaded to the same pressure as a .270 Win in a modern Remington 700.
I have a Ruger GP100 .44 special and a Ruger Blackhawk Flat Top Bisley 44 Special 4.62". And they both can be loaded warmer than SAAMI max pressure.
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Some old 44 special hands on another forum swear it can be safely loaded to 25000 psi. and used in Blackhawks. I'll let them experiment with that. I'm just a novice reloader and want to keep all of my fingers.
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07-14-2019, 09:17 AM
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First off, I'll say that some of you guys shooting skeeter loads from a Bulldog have more stones than I do, I intentionally load light for mine as I just don't like the hand smack. I'm guessing the gun could handle those leads from time to time, but I don't want to experience that wallop.
With that said, I really enjoy 7.5g of Unique and cast 240g bullets. I'm getting a very respectable 916-950 FPS from them through my 4" 629. I might try pushing those a bit more, but I'll use 2400 for that.
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07-14-2019, 11:02 PM
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If 6.9gr of Unique is SAAMI compliant, then surely 7.5 is not too much for a modern .44spl. I have shot quite a few of them over the years and feel safe and confident about it. On the other hand I probably shouldn't call anyone shirley and confidence is that safe warm feeling you get just before you bust your butt...........
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