I started off reloading with Lee products mainly because I was on a tight budget back then. I'm not rolling in money these days, but I no longer have to agonize over an additional $20 or $30 anymore.

Anyway, I've been dithering about whether to get the dies and supplies for the 30-06 chambered Columbian Mauser I got for Christmas. Clovispup and I decided to drive to the outdoor range this week, so the lure of shooting further than 25 yds tipped the scales.

I leaned toward ordering a Lee 3 die set with the FCD, like my .223 dies. LGS has RCBS dies at a very attractive price, and I could make some ammo in time for our outing. So they went home with me. Something in the back of my mind said it would be good to try a different brand.

I got them home and opened them up. Initial impression is that they are very well made. They have the look and feel of good solid machining. Fortunately, I discovered at the store that they don't include a shell holder, so I sprang the extra $ and bought one before being even more disappointed and having to make an additional trip.

I got off work early last night, so I decided to set them up and make some ammo. The first thing I noticed was that I needed multiple tools for every adjustment I make. Again, I'm used to Lee dies where nearly every adjustment is made without reaching for a tool. I can see where the locking rings would appeal to the single stage owners. For my turret press, I prefer the tool free o ring "locks". I also noticed you have to be careful when tightening the lock nuts so you don't change the adjustment.

The other thing I noticed was what a pain it is to adjust the crimp and seat in one operation. I'm used to doing just that in my .38 dies, but had real issues trying to get things right with these dies. The collet style crimp has a lot of advantages. I don't have to trim all my cases to the same length, just make sure they are within tolerance range. I can also just dial in a light, medium or heavy crimp, with no fear of overcrimping. The instructions with the RCBS says to measure the case near the base and then near the mouth. There should be a .001 to .002 difference. I kept measuring and tweaking with no observable difference until I begain buckling the case. Back to square one. I will likely invest in a separate FCD.

Bottom line, these are well made, well machined dies that should produce quality ammo.

I wish I had waited and gotten the Lee dies, though.

Some of that may be a result of my cutting my teeth on Lee dies.

You can sell the RCBS dies and buy Lee but I would not. I use Lee dies for all my handgun loading but I use mostly RCBS for loading rifle cartridges with some Lee and Hornady dies thrown in too.

There is really no good reason to crimp rifle cartridges unless they are being shot in a rifle with a tubular magazine. Just because our turret presses have 4 holes doesn't mean we have to use them all lol.

You can replace the lock rings if you want too.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Trust me, you just bought much better dies than Lee. And adjusting that seating die is easy.

Screw the die into your press part-way and insert a case with a bullet in its mouth in the shell holder. Raise the shell all the way and then turn the die's seating stem down until it contacts the bullet. Then lower the shell a little and turn the seating stem down, raise the shell and repeat until the bullet is seated as desired. Then raise the stem and lower the die until the crimping ring contacts the shell. Keep turning the die downward and raising the shell until the crimp is properly adjusted. Lock the die in place and finally, with the shell up in the die, turn the seating stem down until it contacts bullet and lock it in place.

It takes longer to type and read that than the actual process.

I only owned a set of Lee dies briefly as loading one 50-round box of handgun ammo with them was all it took to show me how much better RCBS and Reddings are. Yes, they might take a little longer to set up but the time is well worth it.

Ed

They're just different , once you get used to them they will be fine.
I learned with the old school dies and thought Lee dies were messed up. Once I got used to how they work , no more problems.
Every manufacturer's dies work differently , so don't be surprised if you get another makers set and things are different from the Lee and RCBS dies. Good news is they will all work.
Gary

That's what I've been doing. I can't seem to get the crimp to my satisfaction. When I screw it down close to buckling the case, I still don't get good holding power. I can tap the case hard a couple times on the bench, and the bullet sets back in the case. I'm afraid I will get set back in the blind mag.

I'm starting to wonder if the neck sizer on the decap pin is too large giving me insufficient neck tension.

I will borrow my buddy's Lee FCD and try crimping them with a known quantity.

I played around with it for a while this morning. Even the hardest crimped ones that I ended up pulling only took a single, not too hard a rap with the kinetic to disassemble them. I'm used to two to three really hard knocks to get bullets out.

It might be me, but I'm beginning to regret getting these dies.

You will not go wrong with these dies or any RCBS products. I've used their "stuff" for 40+ years and they've sent me many parts, de-capping pins, etc., most times free! I think I have at least a dozen of their die sets and yes several Lee sets also. Experiment a little and you'll have no problems at all...

__________________
TMW
ExFed

What he said. If in doubt, call RCBS and explain your dilemma. I'll bet they get you fixed up PDQ!

Ed

I just got through trying to find the most crimp without risk of buckling. I ended up with something that still isn't as tight as I would like, but I could bounce the completed round a couple times hard on the bench with only minimal set back. I recrimped all completed rounds and will try them out tomorrow at the range. Wednesday, I get together with my buddy, and I will borrow his FCD die and try that.

Just got back from the range. Forgot my bench rest, so not sure how accurate they really are. Other than that, they fired fine. Primers looked good, no feed or extraction problems. Didn't remember to bring a set of calipers, so don't know if they set back. I did line one up with a reference round, and run a couple through with it in the mag. Then compared it back to the reference round. I couldn't eyeball any setback. I will borrow my buddy's FCD tomorrow and reload these empty cases.

Gotta get a recoil pad for this beast. The solid rubber pad it has now is rock hard.

Does RCBS still use the brass set screws to lock the die rings?

If so the brass set screws will eventually strip. Their solution is to send you a bag of set screws and a bunch of lead shot to act as a buffer and lock into the threads.

Did you clean (degrease) them before using to get the machining oil off of them?

Regardless they are very well made dies and will last forever.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Yes, they still have the brass set screws. For a locking ring, I prefer the Hornady style with the split rings that tighten the entire ring on the threads.

No, I didn't degrease them first. I didn't notice any oil on them, and didn't have any degreaser handy. I've never needed to degrease any of my previous dies. Perhaps I'll go degrease them now, I doubt it will make any difference after having run a couple dozen cases through them.

OK, I went ahead and cleaned the dies. Don't think it made any difference, as they appeared very clean, only a little stuff on the expander ball. Looked like dried lube and carbon.

I got to thinking. I know, dangerous. I normally process my .223 brass, using water based lube, in advance. It has plenty of time to dry and, since I use very little, leaves very little of anything behind.

I was processing these 30-06 cases and loading them straight away. There is an extremely thin layer of lube still in there. Doubt it's much after pushing and pulling the expander ball through it. I went ahead and cleaned the inside of the neck and loaded a couple. After loading I whacked them pretty hard against the bench with no set back at all. I guess I need to either process ahead of time and let the necks dry, or clean the necks prior to loading. I'll probably go with the latter, as there may be some residue from trimming the necks in there as well.

It's not like I will be loading a hundred or two of these at a time.

I've got 100+ sets of dies, 75% of them are RCBS. The rest are
Lyman, Texan, Pacific, C&H, Bonanza, Redding and a few others.
I own no Lees or Hornadys- don't want none.
I also have about that many bullet molds, Lyman-Ideal, RCBS,
SAECO, Rapine and 1 Lee.
The used market is glutted with top quality dies that can be had
for $20, in the common calibres. A die is a precision tool. Once
you get use to standard dies you will set and lock the rings with
out thinking about it. There is no comparison between the RCBS
and Lees.

I've never found a need to crimp .30-06 rounds for a bolt-action rifle.

Sorry, but this will probably be the last RCBS dies I purchase.

I have had a much better experience with my Lee dies. Much easier to set up and adjust, and once adjusted they stay that way on my turret plates. The collete style crimp die is much superior for rifle calibers IMO. Very easy to dial the level of crimp desired. Will not buckle cases, and trim length is not critical. With my Lee dies, as long as the length is within limits, it's good to go. The RCBS literature states several times that consistent trim length is critical to consistent crimps.

I would not worry about the crimping of 30-06 bullets.

The only "Hunting bullet" that I crimp is the Remington Cor-Lokt 150gr.
The "GI" FMJ can be crimped if they have a cannelure but most that
shot a bolt action, do not crimp their loads.

Just do not over stress, tighten, the hex, Philips or standard screw driver head and you dies will last a long, long time.

And if you would take a second to think about it, they are right. If your cases are all different lengths, they are going to extend more and less farther into the die and those that extend the farthest will be crimped more than the shorter ones. Come on man!

How can you possibly experience problems with RCBS dies not staying in adjustment??? They lock in place and if locked correctly, cannot move!

You are seem to be hung up on the price points of the two brands. Yes, RCBS dies (and, I think, every other brand) cost more than Lee. There's a reason for that - you get what you pay for. Try to sell a set of used Lee dies. I did - it took a while and I had to basically give them away AND pay for the shipping to unload a set of carbide dies I used one time. On top of that, they were for a cartridge for which dies are not easily found (which is why I wound up with them in the first place) so it wasn't like there were multiple sets for sale on the same sites on which mine were listed.

What tools you chose to use matters not to any of us. We're just trying to give you good advice and mean no offense.

By the way, why do you crimp cartridges for a bolt-action rifle?

Ed

Well, I'm not hung up on price point. I already shelled out for these dies, I didn't pay much more for them than a 3 die set of Lee's, but I am very disappointed in their performance.

As to crimping them, the issue for me is if the bullets are loose enough in the case that I can easily get the bullets to move by rapping the base on the bench a time or two, then they are likely to set back when in the blind magazine after firing a few rounds. The recoil on this beast is very high.

I think I may have the issue under control, although none of my other calibers have bullets this loose in the case, even after I have it to the point that I feel I won't have a issue with set back in use.

I am not having an issue with them coming out of adjustment. That is not one of my complaints about these dies. The locking ring does a good job of holding the die in place. I don't care much for having to look up the allen wrench any time I may have to readjust it, although I shouldn't have to do that very often. The main thing I would have to readjust in use is the seating depth, if I change bullet profile.


I've never had these kinds of problems with other dies, and just don't care for the way they are adjusted, aside from the other issue I had.

Another issue is crimped primers. Don't know if there is any military brass out there with crimped primers, but I would not attempt to deprime them with these dies. Too much of a chance of breaking, bending the decapping pin. The collete holding the pin on my Lee .223 die will allow the pin to slip before breaking or bending. The threaded adjuster on the pin in these dies will not slip under excess pressure.

I was prepared to like these dies when I bought them.

My RCBS dies (8 or 9 sets so far) date back to the days when each die was stamped with a date code, and mine are all from the 1960's to 1970's. All continue to work flawlessly after many thousands of rounds produced. Excellent products.

As others have pointed out, there is seldom any need for crimping rifle cartridges unless you are dealing with tubular magazine rifles or extremely high-recoil rifles (which .30-06 is not when used in a 7-9 pound bolt-action military rifle). If a crimp is required or desired there are a few steps required to obtain optimal results:

1. Use only bullets that are produced with a crimping cannelure or recess. Jacketed bullets without a built-in means for crimping cannot be crimped by roll crimping processes, and any attempt to do so will damage bullet or brass (or both), usually leaving the bullet loose and wobbly in the case neck.
2. All brass must be trimmed to matching (and precise) length. Overlooking this will overcome any further attempts to satisfactory results.
3. Set up the seating die to seat the bullet to desired COL without engaging the crimping function. Then back off the seating stem completely, carefully run the seating die down to the point at which crimping begins, slowly increase crimping until you have the necessary engagement. Then run the seating stem down to engage the bullet nose and lock in place. If you plan on using the same bullets and brass in the future it is helpful to make up a dummy cartridge (unprimed empty case with bullet seated and crimped) which can be used to quickly and easily set up the seating die in the future.

If you don't like the RCBS locking nuts you can easily replace them with others (such as O-ring type, etc), as the thread dimensions are standard.

Clovishound , sounds like the sizer isn't sizing the neck down enough or the expander is expanding the neck too much.
Size a case without the expander in place and see if it will hold a bullet. If so , the culprit could be the neck expander. Choice : call RCBS and see if they will send you proper sized replacement or turn the expander down to a smaller diameter. Use larger diameter bullets (just kidding ).

People complain about Lee products but the fact is , for the price you get a pretty good product. Just about every thing I have purchased in the last 20 years have been Lee and I haven't had any problems with anything.
Gary

I've used RCBS products since the middle '70s, and have been extremely satisfied with the ammo they've produced. RCBS also has exceptional customer service, e.g., when I've had "brain cramps" and broken a few parts, RCBS replaced them at no charge.

Two points: (1) as mentioned above, I do not crimp bullets for use in bolt action rifles: (2) when loading pistol ammo, I get better results by seating and crimping in separate operations.

Hope this helps.

When I read threads like this, I think the best advice is to use the search function of the internet, with words such as RCBS versus Lee dies, etc. There will be many examples of opinions out there, covering quite a few years. For example, the old RCBS dies are well made, while the new product suffers. And then you'll read just the opposite.

As to myself. I have more Dillon dies than the rest. After all, I use a Dillon progressive. Many Lymans, A few Reddings, Hornady's, and Lee's. IMO, the Lee is a good die for the money. It works, and I really think they're too cheap (cost wise) for what you get. They're a good value, and a lot better than some would have you believe. As I said, search the internet. Many opinions that match mine, Lee wise. As to RCBS, I own many of their reloading products, but only the single press bullet removing die.

You never mentioned the brand of brass you have. The trouble you're having strongly indicates thin necks. It is inconceivable that RCBS would supply a sizer die with an over sized neck section or an over sized expander ball. Having bullets move by tapping a loaded round on a bench indicates trouble. Neck tension should always provide enough pull to keep things in place except for reloads for a tubular magazine or automatics where some form of crimp is indicated. Is this American made, major brand name brass? Has it been neck reamed or neck O.D. turned? Once fired .30-06 brass properly adjusted RCBS, or anybody's, dies should work great in a bolt action.

It's Remington, once fired. I bought it factory loaded and fired it in this gun.

I adjusted the dies according to RCBS's instructions.

Got the FCD from my buddy today. I'll try some out in the next few days and see if that helps.

I did play with it and a dummy round for a few minutes this afternoon. I can easily get the top of the mouth to go .001 to .002 under the rest of the neck using the FCD. Was unable to get this to happen with the RCBS crimp die. I will adjust it to .002 under and load up a few and see how they do.

I started reloading in 1972. RCBS has been all I have used and today used the first set that I bought way back then.

OK, I had a little time tonight, so I went out and prepped 5 cases. Dialed out the crimp on the seat/crimp die. Dialed in the seater adjustment. Loaded up a case, seated the bullet, adjusted the FCD for a .002 differential and then loaded up another 4. Try as I might, I couldn't get them to set back. I'll call this good, and move on to load development.

I'll get my buddy's FCD back to him next week and order one for myself.

I appreciate all the comments even if it has gotten a tad contentious. Most of us have strong opinions on brands, and good reasons why certain brands have or haven't worked for us. There's room for all of us at the reloading table.

O.K., this may be of some help to you.I had a natter with a RCBS tech some time ago, having somewhat similar problems.
What he told me was:
1. Set the seat/crimp die like thus: run a trimmed,sized, expanded case into the press with the ram full up. If it is a compound press, the ram will "cam over", so you need to take that into consideration in your adjustments
2. screw the die into the press until the crimp ridge gently contacts the case mouth. The case may need reexpanding. Screw the lock ring down against the press, and slightly tighten the lock screw so you don't lose your adjustment. Unscrew the seat/crimp die body 1/2-1 inch.
4. Unscrew the seating stem so it will not contact your bullet until you want it to.
5.Place a bullet in a properly prepared case. A new case will insure the case will still accept the bullet.
6. Raise the ram, and screw the seating stem down till it contacts the bullet nose, keep screwing the seater plug down till your bullet is at your chosen depth/cartridge length.
7. Unscrew the seater plug again, and screw the die body down to the lock ring. RCBS said that factory crimps are in fact, overcrimps. No more than a half-turn will provide sufficient crimp, sez he, because case mouth tension is what really holds the bullet. I prefer to crimp until I have very little or no "hang up" on the case mouth/crimp when I lightly run my fingernail down. NOW, check your cartridge for overall length, and crimp. Hint: If you see what looks like a good crimp, check at the top of the brass, and see if there is a faint line, and a very tiny "lip" above the crimp. This means that there is too much crimp, and the brass has run under the crimping ridge too far. Adjust your crimp till it disappears.
8. All this time, the seater plug should not have contacted the bullet. If the overall length needs adjusting, do it.
9. Tighten everything down, run a cartridge or two to see everything is proper, then load away!
I hope I haven't told you how to build a whole bicycle, when all you really wanted was to know how to change a tire! Oh, BTW, I have had Lyman, Lee and RCBS dies, and have had really god service from RCBS. The jury is still out on the Lee FCD.

Once you get the RCBS dies set you should be good to go, I use them and Lee dies both. For the factory crimp I prefer the Lee FCD but for seating and flaring the RCBS work fine. Yes, they are more of a pain to get set, having to use multiple tools to turn and hold can be a pain but once set, you're good to go. Good luck, don't give up on them yet.

RCBS used to use split locking rings but later changed to the type that was frustrating you. I replaced the locking rings on both my newer RCBS and Lee dies with the Hornady split locking rings.

If you want to use the RCBS rings, many people find that removing the brass set screw and dropping a piece of lead shot/fishing weight into the hole and then replacing the brass set screw to help.

The process you described in the paragraph that followed doesn't sound like the process described in the RCBS instruction sheet. Are you sure you followed the instructions?

I followed the RCBS instructions when I set up my .223 Remington dies in 1980. Other than minor adjustments to seating depth to account for 50, 55 or 60 grain bullets, the seating die has not been touched since and has since produced thousands of rounds of perfectly formed, perfectly crimped ammunition.

I followed the instructions. With the case in the holder and ram up, I ran the die down until I met firm resistance. I then ran the die down an additional 1/8 turn. I then crimped the case and measured the neck where the base of the bullet should be, and also right at the mouth. There should be .001 to .002 difference. They state to run the case down in 1/8 turn increments until the crimp measures properly. That is exactly what the instruction sheet that came with the dies said to do.

I could not get any difference in the neck measurements in any of the 1/8 turns I made. After a couple 1/8 turns the case started to buckle.

The very light setting on the Lee FCD gave me .002" difference, and the bullets were secure in the case.

I don't know why these dies won't give me ammo that has a securely seated bullet, but the addition of the FCD cures the issue. Since the crimp die doesn't appear to actually apply a crimp (adjustments of the die don't reduce the diameter of the case mouth), perhaps there is an issue with the machining of the crimp portion of the die. I don't discount that I may be doing something wrong, but I have followed the instructions carefully.

I know this is going to sound strange. I was having trouble getting a firm crimp on some 9 mm Luger loads with a set of Lee carbide dies . I was using a CH shell holder , purchased 30 years ago along with some CH steel dies . I just grabbed the first 9mm shell holder I saw in the box....When I changed to a Lee shell holder the dies started crimping properly ! Evidentially some shell holders are thicker or thinner than others. Just wanted to throw that out as something else to look at when dies aren't doing right.
Glad you got the crimping issue sorted out, my 9mm crimp issue gave me fits...that round can be a little stinker sometimes.
Lee gets bad mouthed but they have some ingenious products.The FCD , Universal Case Expander , Universal Decapper and my favorite a $20.00 double cavity bullet mould with handles. I remember when steel moulds and carbide dies were expensive. Then Lee came along !
Gary

You can find shell holders from the same manufacturer that vary minutely in height but enough to affect the loading process.

Ed

^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

A whole bunch of folks have tried in a very diplomatic way to explain to you what's wrong. I will now proceed the old fashioned way.

They reason you are having problems is about 98% likely to be operator error. You insist on crimping loads which absolutely do not need to be crimped and then, as far as I can determine do not trim fired cases to uniform length (as directed by RCBS) before doing so. These dies, as do most other standard dies, apply a roll crimp. If the case lengths are not uniform, you WILL get the results you report. There are no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about it. It does not matter if the lengths of the sized cases are all within tolerance. It does matter if the lengths are uniform. You refuse to try what is recommended and then complain about the results. If you don't follow instruction-just what do you expect? Do you feel RCBS tells you the case lengths need to be uniform just for grins?

In the grand scheme of things the .30-06 round in an 8 or 9 pound rifle is not a "heavy kicking beast". Does it generate more recoil than a 5.56 in an AR-absolutely. Does it kick as much as a .338 Win Mag or .340 Weatherby- not nearly and those are not really "heavy" calibers.

Before you get all hung up on the Lee FCD for rifle calibers such as the .30-06, be advised that they are not recommended for use with bullets without cannelures by the bullet manufacturers. If you think you're having problems now, try doing .30-30 or .35 Remington ammo which actually needs to be crimped without trimming cases.

Do yourself a big favor for once and try loading these rounds without crimping and check them for setback. The odds are that even if the bullets should move, it will not be a significant amount. Usually with lead core hunting bullets, you will see the nose flatten long before the bullets will move in the cases.

Do what we have told you and avoid a lot of heartburn or insist on doing what you're doing and continue to struggle. Thousand of users have constructed highly accurate .30-06 rounds as we have told you using standard RCBS dies without issues and you could too.

Bruce

P.S. I wouldn't give you 2 cents for the LEE dies and the FCD is a work around for problems which should not exist in the first place, especially in your case.

First of all, yes I did trim my cases to the same length. I understand the reason that needs to be done with this type of die.

Second, the instructions for the Lee FCD specifically say they can be used for bullets without crimp grooves.

Third, every round I loaded from no crimp to just prior to the case buckling has had setback problems.

I have been doing exactly what everyone has been telling me to do and the only bullets that have not had setback problems are the ones that I crimped with the FCD.

I am not hung up on needing to crimp rifle rounds that are going to be run through a bolt action, but I am not comfortable in using ammo that has bullets that set back into the case with a few raps on the bench.

Simple solution:

Measure O.D. of expander ball and the I.D. of sized and expanded cases. The expander should be at least .002" smaller than the diameter of your bullets (.306"). The I.D. of the expanded cases should be roughly the same. With all due respect, crimping is not a substitute for neck tension. With all due respect to Richard Lee, the use of the rifle FCD on bullets without a cannelure if not recommended by the manufacturer of the bullets for a number of relatively obvious reasons.

Incidentally, rapping a bullet on your loading bench is a pretty poor simulation for the feeding and recoil characteristics encountered during the operation of a rifle.

Bruce

Here is what I do. I've already established the fact, that some of us, don't like a particular brand of products. I can assume that most remarks (from those who express their displeasure) will be negative. I'll put this in the memory file of "maybe" and "maybe not". At that point, I'll do a lot more research through many forums, articles that can be accessed on the internet, etc. Then I'll come up with conclusions. Happily for myself, I speed read, and tend to gather a lot of information quickly.

IMO, these days, research outside the bounds of one or two forums is all anyone can do. There are far too many differing opinions out there. At the end of the day, the person who asks a question, can be farther confused. Just keep on reading, is the only solution, and it still isn't perfect.

Final post for me.

Called RCBS yesterday. Waited for a long time on hold. They finally said they would call back. I wanted to be at the press, so I called back today. CS guy had me go through the same steps in instructions, same steps I've done a half a dozen times. Pushed the loaded round against the bench and it set back about .020. He asked about brass, wanted me to measure expander ball. I did that last week. Bottom line, he couldn't figure out what was going on. He didn't seem overly motivated to make me happy with the product.

Rather than spend money shipping this thing back to RCBS along with a couple cases, and bullets, I believe will just go with an FCD. It works, I know it works. I pulled a test bullet with the inertial that had been crimped with the FCD. It took the normal 2 hard whacks on the concrete floor to pull.

I may just get a 3 die set, rather than piecemeal, and just chalk it up to experience. Right now I'm pretty frustrated.

Hang in there! It will get better!

I've been using RCBS and Lyman dies since the 1960s. No complaints. I did have a minor issue with some RCBS .223 dies. The company promptly fixed them free of charge.

I now also use Lee dies but I find them to be too short to easily work on a Dillon press. I notified Lee of this and received a flippant response from a pseudo-executive. Apparently, compatibility with the best-selling press in the industry did not interest them.