Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:23 PM
Daimler1989 Daimler1989 is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 354
Likes: 472
Liked 618 Times in 156 Posts
Default .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration

Hi all,

I want to check out new loads for my 624 4". So far I'm happy with 200 grs SWC lead bullets, but when I think about using the gun on game (only finishing shots on short distances allowed over here in Germany), I'm not sure how the 200 grs should perform. I worked out a load with SNPE Vectan A0 that gives me about 340 m/s (=1115 ft/s) which is quite a handful for the 696 that my wife uses. So I reduced the load for safety reasons (velocity was far higher than SNPE showed in the manual, despite the load wasn't max). They were no fun on the range either...

How are your experiences with 240-245 grs SWC lead bullets ? Would they penetrate better at a lower level of velocity, f.e. around 850/880 ft/s (compared to about 1000 ft/s with 200 grs)?

best regards fro Germany
Ulrich
__________________
Life is too short to own a bad gun
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:31 PM
29aholic 29aholic is offline
Banned
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bolivar, MO
Posts: 6,360
Likes: 3,558
Liked 3,241 Times in 1,099 Posts
Default

Typically higher velocity means more penetration given the bullet design. Honestly if it is a finishing shot I doubt it would make much difference since you'll be close.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:47 PM
Davinman Davinman is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: illinois, chicago burbs
Posts: 162
Likes: 347
Liked 156 Times in 71 Posts
Default

A 240gr "hard cast" SWC at around 800-900 fps, should shoot clear through any game animal you would encounter out past 100 yards pretty easy. I hope that's helpful info. good luck on finding your 44spl load.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 01-18-2017, 05:33 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,553
Likes: 4
Liked 8,885 Times in 4,121 Posts
Default

Shoot what's most accurate. For your purposes at the velocities you mention, you won't see much difference, if any.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 01-18-2017, 05:50 PM
Nemo288's Avatar
Nemo288 Nemo288 is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Badgerland
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 557
Liked 1,496 Times in 786 Posts
Default

While it doesn't really apply in your case, John Taylor in his seminal work,
was of the opinion that the heavier the bullet the better the penetration even though the speed was lower.
In fact at rifle velocity some think penetration goes DOWN above a certain speed.
Now for the 44 special the 240 will give better "throughput" than the 200 in theory.
Just read a book about wild boars written by a state game manager in Texas and he uses a .22 magnum rimfire to finish pigs right close up.
One of my "rural" carry loads in the 44 special is a Sierra 210 JHC at 1055 fps (~20 KPSI)
The other is a 240 SWC at 930 fps.
Unless your quarry is bears I would think either bullet will do.
Even then a finishing head or heart shot should be done quite well with the 200 SWC.

I would not worry too much about going a little over 1000 fps with a 200 SWC in those S&W revolvers.
The pressure might be a tad over 15Kpsi but the Smith's will easily take 20-25 Kpsi in moderation.
Brian Pearce had a good article about that in Handloader 236 Aug-Sept 2005.
Handloader Single Back Issues on CD-ROM
I have a pdf of just that article. It's too large to post here.
He shoots a 200 RCBS RNFP at 1055 with 8 grains Universal.
That's actually listed as a "normal" load and he goes to 9 grains Unique/Universal for his "stage 2" loads.
For everyday use 6 grains works very well:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4in624Target2.jpg (59.4 KB, 57 views)
__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Last edited by Nemo288; 01-18-2017 at 05:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 01-18-2017, 06:00 PM
BearBio BearBio is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 4,913
Likes: 3,226
Liked 6,813 Times in 2,543 Posts
Default

Shot a fair number (50+) of wild hogs/boars with 225-240 gr hardcast in 44 mag and 45 Colt, at about 1000 fps. Many penetrated all the way.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 01-18-2017, 06:37 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Well a finishing shot implies headshot. So I think your 200gr is fine. Even a 22lr works for that.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 01-19-2017, 03:10 AM
Daimler1989 Daimler1989 is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 354
Likes: 472
Liked 618 Times in 156 Posts
Default

thanks everyone, you made good points. Eventually, not each finishing shot might be a head shot, so I worried about penetration. But I guess, I will do some wet paper tests with the 200 grs in the velocity area of 1000 ft/s and see what happens

regards
Ulrich
__________________
Life is too short to own a bad gun
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:59 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Banned
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,121
Likes: 2,661
Liked 4,324 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

What animal are we talking about? A deer is constructed differently than a boar, for instance.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 01-19-2017, 10:32 AM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW MT
Posts: 6,690
Likes: 10,392
Liked 5,972 Times in 2,942 Posts
Default

If German Red Deer is the same size and our American Wapiti I would go with 240-250 gr bullets. I live in bear country and experience here shows heavy penetrates better, rather than speed.
__________________
Front sight and squeeze
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:26 PM
Daimler1989 Daimler1989 is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 354
Likes: 472
Liked 618 Times in 156 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
What animal are we talking about? A deer is constructed differently than a boar, for instance.
we use the .44 Spec. as backup guns, so they might be used for finishing deer as well as wild boar. F.e. after a collision with a motor car, which happens frequently (Germany is very crowded...), and you can never be sure if the animal doesn't move any longer. So one must assume that head shots are not always possible.

regards
Ulrich
__________________
Life is too short to own a bad gun
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:46 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 2,738
Likes: 185
Liked 3,297 Times in 1,523 Posts
Default

I have always used the " Keith " 245 gr swc (Lyman 429421 ) in my 44 special loads , from " mild to wild " . I has always given me what I was looking for .
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 01-19-2017, 07:16 PM
Nemo288's Avatar
Nemo288 Nemo288 is offline
Member
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Badgerland
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 557
Liked 1,496 Times in 786 Posts
Default

For those interested in the 696, here are a couple of articles by Glen Fryxell that offers a slightly different perspective.
The .44 Special Revisited
The .44 SWC
Beartooth Bullets offers that 237 WFN and I use it in the 696.
44 Caliber 240g WFN PB
Recommended.
Montana Bullet Works also offers a wide selection of the LBT designs as well and they are cheaper.
I am going to be trying their 220 ogive wadcutter in the 44 special.
44 Mag, LBT, 220gr, OWC-PB - Montana Bullet Works

As has been stated you can't really go wrong with the Keith especially now they can be had coated.
That may be the cheapest good all around solution of all.
Here is a BHN 16 coated Keith:
44 CAL 240 Grain SWC COATED
And here is a softer BHN 12 240 although not a Keith:
Missouri Bullet Company
__________________
NEMO
"Everything 44"

Last edited by Nemo288; 01-19-2017 at 07:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-20-2017, 03:53 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Banned
.44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration .44 Spl: Bullet weight for penetration  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,121
Likes: 2,661
Liked 4,324 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimler1989 View Post
we use the .44 Spec. as backup guns, so they might be used for finishing deer as well as wild boar.
If you made me pick one to do everything, I would select a lead semiwadcutter, 240 or 255 grain. I would rather overpenetrate the relatively non-threatening deer, then under-penetrate the boar. At warmish .44 Special loads, it should be adequate, unless your boar are monsters.

Recoil just be stout, but not overly punishing even at .44 Magnum levels unless you suffer from arthritis, carpal tunnel, or the like. Rubber grips, some light leather shooting gloves, or a change in technique may be in order.

Can't control the recoil of stout-ish revolver cartridges--you have to absorb it, like a big spring. Bent elbows, relaxed shoulders, a forward bend in the back, slightly bent knees, weight on the balls of your feet. You sacrifice some extra "wobble" in your sights, but gain some comfort. And a fast follow-up shot is still possible.

As an aside, I've often wondered if my slight build (160 pounds/70 kg) might be assisting me in tolerating heavy recoil, since I present less resistance to the gun, allowing my body to absorb more and reducing the stress on my hands, arms, and shoulders. Similar to how shooting a rifle from prone can be more uncomfortable than standing.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
45 Auto Rim - Good Commercial Heavy Bullet for Penetration quickdraw03 Reloading 63 09-21-2021 06:14 PM
Help with bullet weight Carrot Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 8 01-27-2014 10:16 PM
Penetration + Expansion + Weight Retention = One Happy Redneck David LaPell Reloading 3 03-29-2013 12:25 AM
Published bullet weight vs. actual bullet weight safearm Reloading 29 03-26-2013 05:45 AM
Bullet weight vs Pistol weight oldracer Reloading 13 01-21-2010 03:13 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:06 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)