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Old 01-21-2017, 07:18 PM
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Default My First 9mm Reloads

I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals
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Old 01-21-2017, 07:23 PM
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Don't have my loading manual in front of me but soot can be a sign of too low of pressure. The pressure is not high enough to expand the brass to the point that it seals against the firing chamber. This all assumes the firing chamber is within spec, too. If your loads are toward the low end, try increasing the charge.

Edit: I just checked my Hornady manual and it shows 4.1 - 4.7 grains for the 115 grain bullet. I know plated bullets should not be loaded hot but I would not go below minimum.

Last edited by 427mach1; 01-21-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 01-21-2017, 07:31 PM
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That makes sense. I was instructed to use a starting load mid way between the top of lead and bottom of fmj bullets. I will bump up to 4.0gr and see how it performs.
Thanks
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Old 01-21-2017, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals9 View Post
I was instructed to use a starting load mid way between the top of lead and bottom of fmj bullets. I will bump up to 4.0gr and see how it performs.
Hodgdon website says:
115gr. bullet - Win 231 powder - 4.7gr. - 5.1gr. for GDHP with COL - 1.125" and 4.3gr. - 4.8gr. for LRN with COL 1.100".

People say to load plated bullets to the same specs as lead. The "top of lead and bottom of FMJ" overlap in this case.

I'd go a little higher than 4.0gr. for your loads.
I would try at least the 4.3gr. listed as the minimum charge.

Last edited by Hillbilly77; 01-21-2017 at 08:14 PM. Reason: Add quote.
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Old 01-21-2017, 08:00 PM
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Hi, I load quite a bit of 9mm. Most important is referencing and understanding load data. You should not just say I'll bump it up and try that. I use VihtaVouri N340 for my loads but I did take the time to reference your load with 231. Here is what I found:

Winchester load data: 115g FMJ 4.3 start, 4.8 max. 1.169 OAL.
NOTE: you are using a plated bullet, not a full metal jacket as listed in that data. Makes a difference in pressure/seal of bullet to barrel.

Modern reloading by R. Lee, no 231 load data for 115 plated. They do list 231 for 115 lead bullet. 4.3 start, 4.8 max. 1.100 OAL.

Note the similarities in the charge data above? This is good. We can confirm with some confidence that 4.3 is your minimum starting load. No less!
Next we have to settle on the OAL. They are different above by a 1/16". That is a lot. So I referenced another manual, Western powders. There I find their powders but I find a 115g plated RN 115 bullet just like what you are using. And all the different powders indicate a OAL of 1.130".

So, what I myself would do if I was using 231 would be 4.3g and a 1.13 OAL. Use this information at your own risk. I would also chrono that load when I could as well.
In closing, always reference as much data as you can when developing a new load. Never ever guess or dream something up. 3.5 grains was a mistake hence your problems.

My load of choice is 5.1g N340, 1.150 OAL Xtreme 115g plated, CCI 500 primer, .374 diameter crimp, blazer brass, 1093 FPS, dead accurate. Clean, no issues.

I hoped I helped you.
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Old 01-21-2017, 08:56 PM
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Wait a minute. The only danger you run in using less than a starting load, is either the gun won't cycle, or the bullet sticks in the barrel.

We already know the bullet is exiting the barrel. That leaves the cycling.

All you need is enough powder to cycle the slide, and get 100% ejection. Just continue inching up in powder charge, until the slide cycles and the brass ejects. It doesn't need to be thrown 20 feet - I reload my 9's to pile the brass 2-3 feet to my right. Sometimes less than 900fps.

Excellent accuracy, easy shooting, and no crawling around chasing brass.
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Old 01-21-2017, 09:01 PM
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He is guessing and not basing to published load data. One squib with a quick follow up shot is a danger. I based that 4.3 on fact not fiction.
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Old 01-21-2017, 09:23 PM
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The issues with your reloads are being caused by far too little powder.

I've shot >5,000 Berry's 115gr PRNs using 4.5gr of HP38/W231 (they are the same powder) at an OAL of 1.1" (which is short) and the MV out of a CZ75B with 4.6" barrel is just over 1100fps. I now use 4.7gr at the same OAL because my latest batch of HP38 tested to need more powder for similar performance to the last batch, and 4.7gr was more consistent on paper.

IIRC, my pistols began to cycle what seemed to be "reliably" only at 4.1gr.
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Old 01-21-2017, 09:54 PM
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I am not guessing at my data. Lyman 49 has a starting load for a 115 gr Jacketed HP at 3.5 gr and a max of 4.9 gr. The lead bullet starts at 3.0 gr and max is 4.1. I looked at 4 loading manuals and I took the more conservative route. My bumping it up a bit is working up the load at 0.2 gr at a time. I have done this in 30-06 to find the best load. I prefer to increase the load in small increments instead of large amounts. What I did not expect was the lack of gas seal causing the soot. Thanks to all for the information and advice.

Mals

Last edited by Mals9; 01-24-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Mals9 wrote:
My bumping it up a bit is working up the load at 0.2 gr at a time.
Pistol cartridges are a little more sensitive to increases in powder charge than rifles which have greater case capacity, so many shooters increase charges in 0.1 grain increments.

Still, your approach of starting low and incrementally increasing the charge is sound and is the approach most manuals recommend.

Based on my experience, you'll start getting reliable functioning around 4.1 to 4.3 grains.

Welcome to the reloading forum.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Mals9 wrote:
I am not guessing at my data.
I know. You laid out the process you were following in your original post. The fact someone decided to characterize it as "guessing" is common on this forum. You just have to decide to get used to it.
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Old 01-22-2017, 03:08 AM
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First off the amount of power used in a case means nothing..........
until you match it with a OAL.

A starting load of w231 at 3.5grs in a OAL of 1.10" or 1.169"
will have too different fps readings and results on how the pistol preforms.

The 4.9grs is the maximum loading for the "Ball" type plated RN bullet design
that allows for a safe pressure in todays pistols.

I have shoot the 115gr plated RN at the OAL of 1.10" and even
out to 1.14" for my light target loads in standard and Milt. brass.
My loads are from 4.0 where the soot on the case stops and my
pistols cycle without any problems, with the 1.10" OAL......
up to the 4.9grs mentioned but this is still a medium loading in
some manuals.

I had no problems pressure wise with 4.9grs of w231 at 1.10" OAL
however my pistol did not do well in the accuracy groups with this loading........
1.12" was better for the RN design in my C9 pistol.

1.12" worked at getting close to factory loadings, if you wany high fps,
but my pistol gives me my best accuracy with a OAL of 1.14"
with the 115gr plated from 963fps up to 1040fps.

Good shooting.
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Old 01-22-2017, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals9 View Post
I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals
Your charge is quite low.

Plated bullets use midrange jacketed data. A starting load for WW-231 in a 115-gr plated 9mm would be up above 4 grains. My manuals are in the basement and I don't like the online data for figuring plated loads.

When I (just recently) started loading 9mm, I flipped open Lyman's 50th and went right down the middle of my chosen powders (Unique and Universal). Both loads matched factory 124-grain ammo perfectly.

Last edited by Wise_A; 01-22-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:10 AM
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Just stopped by in this forum to help, not start anything except for a safe starting load for someone asking for help. I already knew it could be a bit contentious at times but went ahead anyway. All load data out there for 231 and a 115g RN bullet has the start listed at 4.3 and is easily found, and there is a lot of it. The author in his last post quotes Lyman at 3.5 for a JHP bullet and that is correct. But he is not loading a JHP, it is a RN which has a much different length of bullet. I have no idea why one would choose that data for a 115 RN and to do so is guessing to some degree. I'll leave you with the data from the Lee sheet and Winchester, and I hope we've been helpful.
My postings were not done to put you down in any way but only to shed light that the correct data is out there and or how to ascertain such in order that you become a successful and happy reloader with positive results the moment you pull that trigger. God bless and be safe.
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Last edited by Mike0251; 01-22-2017 at 07:29 AM. Reason: Adding load data from Winchester site
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike0251
The author in his last post quotes Lyman at 3.5 for a JHP bullet and that is correct. But he is not loading a JHP, it is a RN which has a much different length of bullet. I have no idea why one would choose that data for a 115 RN and to do so is guessing to some degree.
It actually doesn't matter so much.

If I had load data for a 124-grain jacketed HP, and I was loading a 124-grain jacketed RN, then I could easily use the data. Simply seat the 124-grain RN to the nominal length for that bullet, and then use the HP data. I load most things long anyway, and 9mm especially. It's very easy to set.

Is it extrapolating to a degree? Sure. But it's not reckless.

Anyways, Lyman's 50th data lists a minimum of 3.5 grains and a max of 5.0. Going by the "midrange jacketed" rule of thumb for plated, I probably would have started somewhere around 4.2 or 4.3.
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:51 AM
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Default If you don't have enough pressure......

...the case doesn't expand enough to seal against the chamber walls and you get leakage along the chamber walls toward the back of the case leaving burn marks on the sides of the case. The solution is usually to step up the load a little. I sometimes make bunny poot loads for revolvers, but a semi has to operate within a range of parameters to operate well.

I have a 9mm carbine and tried the loads that work fine in my semi pistols, but I got a lot of stovepipes. I upped the load a little and now the are as reliable as can be.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:32 AM
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I've worked up loads of Plated 115gr RN with 4.5 to 4.8 grs of W231 with excellent results. I follow the proper load data and keep the C.O.L. from 1.100 to 1.135.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:19 PM
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One other thing to consider when using plated bullets is that there is a difference between plated bullets. Some are single plated, some are double plated, and there are a few triple plated. Then there's the thickness of the plating. Read the description on the bullet makers website. The mid range loading advice (or the 1200 fps speed limit) is usually referring to the single plated variety of plated bullets. The double plated bullets can be loaded like jacketed bullets. The triple plated ones are for those of us who load to major power factor (no published data, I load 9mm 124gr bullets to 1400 fps and 115's to 1500 fps). So depending on what you want out of the bullets should guide you in which bullets to buy. If I use single plated bullets in my major loads, the plating comes off and the bullet goes through the target sideways (keyhole) some double plated do this as well. Sorry to add one more layer of confusion to this discussion but I thought it was pertinent.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:36 PM
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Default I use 4.5 gr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals9 View Post
I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals
I use 4.5 gr power pistol with good results, I would try using a factory crimp die to keep the pressure up and prevent the soot I use a lee prog press my cases come out clean
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:41 PM
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Your powder charges are TOO LOW! I don't use 231 anymore, Bullseye is MUCH BETTER powder. They are roughly the same burn rate, you should be in the 4.0-4.5 range for 115gr/9mm.
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Old 01-22-2017, 01:41 PM
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One thing to take into account when dealing with starting loads
is the burn rate and energy of the powders being used.

Here is what I use in a 3" Kahr due to the length of burn while
in the case while pushing a 115gr plated bullet set at 1.12" OAL.

Red Dot will get around 926fps for a clean minimum accuracy load.
W231 is clean and at POA with a speed of 913fps.
Green Dot which takes more powder and burns the longest can
get away with just 890fps for a clean burn and work the action.

Lots of things go into starting loads.........
as I have mentioned before, it is just putting the muzzle together with the different size parts.
Safe loading.
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Old 01-22-2017, 01:51 PM
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Mike0251 my response was not meant to be defensive or rude, I apologize if it came off that way. I appreciate your responses and candor. I will work up the ladder to find the load my pistol likes. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

Mals
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Old 01-22-2017, 03:36 PM
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This is one of the reasons I don't care for the Lyman manual. I have the 49th edition, it has 9 different bullets listed for 9mm, which I'm pretty sure is the most reloaded round in the world. The Lee manual has around 30. For a lot of rounds, and the 9mm in particular, too light of a load can be more dangerous than too strong.
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Old 01-22-2017, 06:03 PM
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Used to have a splendid model 39;sold it.Dumb move.The thing was perking along with 4.0 gr HP 38/W231 but under a 125gr bullet.
I guess you already know that your problems were caused by too light a load.I think that you are on the right path when you mentionned that you'd bump your loads up to 4.0gr and from there,since you are using a lighter bullet,I'd say that you'll still need to fine tune your load,possibly inching up a few /10 of a grain at a time.
Like somebody mentionned,you don't have to get the velocity all the way up there.Usually,accuracy is way below max load.Have fun and play it safe.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:50 AM
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I think there has been a lot written and talked about of the overall length when building a load. OAL is easy to measure and specific to one bullet and one powder (burn rate) when talking load data - the combination of powder charge and OAL.

What is really of importance is not so much where the nose of the bullet is but where the base of the bullet is within the case ("pressure chamber"). Hence, the large amount of data on OAL being specific to a particular bullet/powder combination. Now toss in the surface coating of the bullet whether it be lead, plated copper, copper jacket, HiTek, powder coat - - - and we start dealing with barrel friction effects on pressure .
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:59 PM
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I load 4.3 gr 231 behind a 124 gr powder coated bullet and 4.5 behind 124 gr JHP. It is not a hot load.
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Old 01-28-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike0251 View Post

I hoped I helped you.
I'm sure you did. And probably a few others of us as well.....
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:08 AM
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9 mm is very sensitive to the bullet weight i.e. 147 max for 231 is 3.5, while 124 is 4.1.
Like several people said, a good manual is a must! And make sure it's current. 9 is a high pressure cartridge, so it is more sensitive to OAL than say a 38 that has less pressure and less bearing surface of the bullet intruding into the available space in the case.
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:35 AM
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Mals how has this turned out for you? Any updates?
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:42 PM
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Just a note;

Lyman had a starting load of 3.5grs of w231 at a OAL of 1.090" at 971 fps with a "Universal" 4 inch barrel....... c/o a JHP bullet.

Hornady; S&W M39 with a 4" barrel with a 115gr FMJ
OAL 1.100" with w231 starting at 4.1grs gave around 1,000 fps.

If you used a OAL of 1.14" or a 3" barrel, you might get failures
with feeding and ejecting with the 3.5gr loadings.
One reason it is nice to have two or more manuals to see their
data and to select a load to use.

Have fun.
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  #31  
Old 01-31-2017, 10:20 PM
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Mike0251 I have loaded 20 rounds each at 4.3 and 4.4gr but was not able to make the range this week. I know this still seems low but I am working up the ladder until I find my guns sweet spot. I make sure I see a hole before the next shot so I am not worried about a squib.
Thanks for checking on me.

Mals
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Old 02-01-2017, 06:20 PM
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Your very welcome. I think you will be quite surprised and pleased when you fire off either one of those! A huge difference from the 3.5. I'll quote you ahead of time. "holy **** I loaded those, wow!" LOL
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:16 PM
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Mike0251 - I shot my reloads today and the 4.3 gr caused the "holy **** I loaded those" moment you mentioned. I nice tight group with soft recoil. Not sure I even want to try another recipe.
Thank you very much.

Mals
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:46 PM
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Excellent!
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:06 PM
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Mals9: Congratulations! Those are the moments we all yearn for.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals9 View Post
Mike0251 - I shot my reloads today and the 4.3 gr caused the "holy **** I loaded those" moment you mentioned. I nice tight group with soft recoil. Not sure I even want to try another recipe.
Thank you very much.

Mals
4.3 at what OAL?

Starting to reload 9mm this weekend for first time reloading. Will be using 231 and barry 115 RN 115gn rounds.
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:15 AM
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Select the OAL to match your gun. I usually load all roundnoses 115-124 grains to 1.160", and hollowpoints marginally shorter to match the ogive.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:30 PM
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Racefan I don't have the load info in front of me but I believe it was 1.130"

Mals
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:05 PM
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RCBS Cast Bullet Manual , 115 grain cast lead RN , with 231 powder shows a starting load of 4.5 grs. @ 1042 fps.
and a maximum load 0f 5.0 grs. @ 1138 fps.

The soot and stove pipes are classic signs of not enough pressure, bump the charge up at least to 4.5 and try that..

Gary
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Old 02-26-2017, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mals9 View Post
I shot my first reloads today. I loaded Berry's plated 115 gr so I started low at 3.5gr of W231. About 80 % stove piped and the accuracy was poor. I stepped up to 3.7 gr and most all ejected but I had a lot of short stroking, not loading the next round. The cases came out with heavy soot on one side. This did not happen with the Winchester white box that shot very accurately. What is the cause of the large amount of soot? I am new to pistol reloading so I am here to be schooled.

Mals
I am using the same bullet and powder. But I am loading 4.1 gr. of the w-231. That load works in all my 9 MM. hand guns without any type of problems.

Take care, R.J.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:45 PM
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I just loaded my first 9mms today. This is my first reloads since I just started today. I loaded 5 rounds at 115 gn Barrys RN at 4.3 231 power with a OCL of 1.113 and 5 at 4.4 with a OCL of 1.113 done on a lee classic 4 turret press with factory crimp die finishing them off. Hope to get to the range to shoot them and see what they do. I will shoot them in my full size M&P first. Cannot fine any good load data other that what lee has with there dies and in there book Lymans 48th book does not list 9mm cast and do not have access to any others local and hate to buy and them not have any good imfo. I will only be loading 9mm for right now but in future hope to load 45ACP.

Last edited by racefan; 02-26-2017 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:16 PM
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Just FWIW, I had a very similar experience with 4.1gr AA#2 under a 115gr Xtreme RN, loaded at 1.15 COAL.
They worked in all the 9mm bottom feeders we tried EXCEPT for a Ruger

P94DC. Just not quite enough energy to cycle that big ole stainless steel slide every single time. About 1/3 or 1/4 of them stove-piped. Time to bump the load up .1gr...
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:48 AM
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I shot my first reloads they all cycled good loaded 115 barrys with 231 at 1.115 with 4.3 and also 4.4 and 4.5 power loads. Must say even the 4.5 had very little recoil compared to a factory load which made me think they were all week . Is this common with 231 to have a soft or light recoil? Loads wider shot through a full size M&P 9 and a Kimber 1911
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:23 PM
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If they cycled and did what you want, then who cares?

If you're trying to replicate factory feel for practice, then yes, that was a very light load. I would have started around 4.7 grains of HP-38/WW-231 for a 115-gr plated bullet (Berry's or Xtreme). Probably more like 4.8 or 4.9.

Thicker, quality plated bullets like Xtreme and Berry's use midrange jacketed data. And personally, I've found that charges in the .46cc range by volume work best in 9mm, across fast to medium powders I've tried.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:43 AM
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When I started reloading I read reloading books, went to the web sites for the powders I was using for a particular load I was working up.

In most cases I would start with the recommended start load. If the performance was good I work it up in small increments of .2 grains.

You will develop your own standards. new loads require research. Have fun use care ans stay focused on what you are doing.
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