I am new to loading but have done well with 223 and 45 ACP rounds, but the 238s are baffling me. I am getting inconstant loads I and loading 125 grain Berrys plated flat point bullets. I have used 2 different primers 2 different jframe revolvers and 2 different powders. The most recent loads were with 4.3 grains of 231 and some were "normal" while others were like 22s. The last batch I weighted every charge. I am loading on a single stage press with lee 4 piece die set. I dont have any clue what to try next any ideas would be great.

Do you trim your brass to uniform length?

I wonder if the crimp varies because of different length cases?
From my understanding, the crimp can affect pressure greatly.

Is there any soot or unburned powder in the case or barrel?

Also, what kind of scale are you using? Is there any environmental influence on the scale? Anything that could cause inconsistent readings?
Weak batteries or fluorescent lighting causing interference with a digital scale? Is the furnace running, blowing air across a balance beam scale? Etc.

The brass was once fired and I did not check the length. There was black soot on the case and I did have flakes of green stuff on the bench.

did you crimp the bullets?

Your load is too light for the bullet weight or there is another issue or two.

Older manuals list much higher charge weights.

With plated bullets I prefer to be closer to jacketed data due to small charges in large cases.

Plated bullets need to be firmly crimped. Even without a crimp groove or cannelure you can still tighten the case mouth firmly into the bullet.

I increase the crimp until I only see half of the case mouth. This forms an annular ring in the bullet. The plating will not crack.

I have not used 231 but it seems that in large cases it is position sensitive.

The soot is from low pressure as is the low felt recoil and unburnt powder. Check for more reload data and try again.

Good Luck!

Bruce

Current data for both jacketed and lead is much lower than the data listed above from an old manual.

I think that you need to crimp the bullet more and perhaps consider seating it deeper into the case.

Maximum current data has a 125 jacketed bullet at 4.9 grains.

Problem = inconsistent loads.

Lee 4-die set suggests that the OP is using a Lee factory crimp die: that's good.

Berry's 125 gr plated bullets: good.

Once-fired 38 SPL fired brass seldom requires trimming: case lengths are probably OK.

Use of multiple primers: not so good. I've seen velocity deviations of around 50 FPS using different primers, but probably not enough deviation to go from "normal" to "like a 22".

Use of multiple powders: not good, but 4.3 grs of W-231 with a 125 gr plated bullet sounds about right to me; shouldn't result in low pressure rounds.

No mention of case prep.

Most probable causes (in my opinion) based on known facts: Contaminated Powder, or Scale Error.

Hogdon on-line loading site states 3.8 grs starting load (876 FPS) and 4.8 grs maximum (1,071 FPS) for Win 231 with 125 gr bullet weight. I would go with the more conservative recommendation. Although the sooty cases do suggest too little pressure. -S2

I see that you are using a four die set. Is the last die a FCD resizing both the case and the bullet?

Here's another thought. When the FCD is used it reduces the case and bullet. Case neck tension is lost and now your bullets are loose and undersized.

Try to push you reload against your bench edge to see if the bullet moves.

You can also measure the diameter of the reload at the bullet shank before and after using the FCD.

I will not use a FCD as it will take a .357"-.358" bullet and will reduce the diameter to .354" or less resulting in a loose and inaccurate bullet.

Check it for yourself and just use the size, bell and crimp dies only. That was all that was ever needed and still works today.

Bruce

I too had another thought:

Are you by any chance weighing the powder charge AND the cases together without first taring-out the case weights? There is significant deviation in case weights, even for cases with the same head stamps. -S2

Hodgdon was always very conservative with powder charges and no one ever blew up a gun with the old data.

I believe the use of a four die set with the FCD is the main culprit.

Why this ever got started I'll never know. I bought one once and my mentor asked why.

I've checked bullets that have been run through a FCD and they have reduced diameters and lack case neck tension. Smokeless powders need tight bullets and case neck tension to burn properly.

If you need a FCD you are doing something wrong. The die will make the cartridge fit but it is reducing the bullet diameter and reducing case neck tension.

Just my .02

irh

I would start out by getting 20 cases ready for loading with
sizing, belling and priming done and set in a loading rack.

Weigh twenty loads of w231 at 5.0 grs of powder and add to all the cases.
Next add the plated bullets and use a OAL of 1.145", while
removing the belling on the case and add a very slight crimp.

My Winchester data shows a 125gr JHP bullet with 5.3grs of
w231 powder at 17,200PSI. Noting to worry about and not
even close to 20,000PSI, if you are shooting a J frame.

A +P loading of w231 in my J frame snub, gets around 840fps
the 5.0grs should be a nice medium target loading with a clean burn.

I have found the .38 Special very easy to load for. I use W231/HP-38 mostly.

I don't usually load a 125gr bullet or plated bullet burst if I did I would use a stiffer charge than you are using. I would use a CCai SPP and at least 4.6gr W231. It sounds like you are not getting a complete burn on your rounds. Be,sure to put a light crimp on those bullets too.

If you can I would switch to cast bullets and I leading scares you use coated cast bullets. You can apply a roll crimp without worrying about breaking into the plating.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Your charge is acceptable. Some case scorching is perfectly normal. Some unburned powder is also periodically normal, although I've never actually seen it with HP-38/WW-231.

Step One--have somebody else shoot the loads. Verify that it's not all in your head.

Are you expanding as little as possible? If you expand the case mouth too much, you can induce poor neck tension. Check for bullet setback by pushing hard on it with your thumbs.

If it passes, you can bump your charge up a little bit--4.5 grains or 4.6.

If that also fails, I would suggest trying a faster powder. WST or Alliant Bullseye would be my choice.

Whenever the AC came on my charges would vary wildly. I had to shield it to keep the draft away.

__________________
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I checked Hodgdon on line list starting load 4.3 max 4.9 that was for 125 bullet. Their site is nice and is free I use their site a lot.

Thanks for the ideas guys!!! I Will looks closely at the crimp and bump the charge a bit. I am convinced its not a variation in charge weight, my powder throw is very consistent. Plus my 45 loads are on the money.

I made a round up and think its possibly a crimp problem. The crimp measured .377 and if I pushed the bullet into a table (real hard) it went down 6 thousands. Hear is a pic of the crimp, I know they all dont look like this but it is an intermittent issue.

I have had very good luck with 5.0 grains of HP-38 under both Berrys and Xtreme 125 grain flat point. Looking atthe Hodgdon website, they list a 38+p load of 5.3 grains at 19,800. Shoots as good as I can out of my J frame 38, and shoots very good out of my 6 in 586 and 686.

It is clear that there is not enough crimp on the round.

Just another thought on the bullet. Check to see if it is .357"-.358" and not a 9MM at .355".

I load two similar bullets and the way I tell them apart, other than with a caliper, is the .38 has a cannelure while the 9mm does not.

Make sure that you are completely resizing the case all the way down to the shell holder. Even without the crimp the bullet should not move easily down into the case when pressed.

Bell only enough to get the bullet started. Also remember all cases are not equal as some are thinner than others.

Keep trying and asking until you get it done right.

Bruce

A while back I started trimming all my 38's and accuracy definitely improved. In measuring I found quite a bit of variation in length on once fired brass. I do the same with 357's and 44Mag. When I set up the dies I first resize and then adjust the expander so the bottom edge of the bullet will just barely slide into the case. Having all the cases trimmed to the same length really helps out here too. Just trimmed 500 cases of mixed once fired brass yesterday. Good thing is once it's done you should be good for a while.

Once you have that dialed in seat the bullet. I've found that if everything up to this point is right you can nearly stand on the bullet and it will not move. I typically get a very slight bulge in the case where the bullet is seated. Not much, maybe .001" or so. Just enough that you can see it but not really feel it. From there I move on to the crimp and get that adjusted. From your photo it looks like there's still a little bit of flare at the case mouth but even so if the neck tension is good it shouldn't move.

Loading 125gr jacketed bullets I've gone as low as 4 grains of W231 and see just a little discoloration at the case mouth. With a 140gr Hornady Cowboy lead bullet I've loaded at 3.6gr of W231 with little to no soot. Never loaded plated before.

One more thing.....

Each weapon will shot a factory box of ammo differently due to
chamber and barrel spec's, so just load for one revolver and make life easier
as well as using just one type of primer, for now.

When confronted to a problem,do not go changing more than 1 thing at a time.If you use only 1 type of primer and trim your cases and change your charge and etc etc...,you'll never find out what was wrong.I'd start by using 1 brand of primers,try 25 rds and if the problem persists,I'd try another brand.If it still is not solved,look at something else(qty of powder,crimp,OAL,etc)but always one at a time.
Qc

I figure the problem lies in the crimp. The Lee die instructions state that the seater die can be adjusted to provide a crimp so I will start there. I do have a bunch of cases ready for powder and bullet since I batch load on a single stage. I will try 20 and report back.

Thanks for all the help!!!

Just returned from the range and the problem is solved!!! I set the seating die to provide some crimp and set the factory crimp die to a heavy crimp. The crimp may be a little much but I wanted to make sure. The rounds were consistent and much less soot on the brass.

Thanks for all the help!!!! Its great to be able to tap in to all of the experience!!

And it gave you an excuse to head back to the range and do some more shooting.

Bruce - the Lee Factory Crimp Die uses a roll crimp. Are you thinking of the Lee Taper crimp die? A roll crimp could not reduce the diameter of the bullet. ????

Edited - my bad. I did not realize the rifle and pistol factory crimp dies were different.
The day one quits learning is the day they die.

You were correct the first time. The folks at Lee are smart enough to know that a roll crimp is required for cartridges that headspace on the base or shoulder (most bottleneck rifle and revolver calibers) and a taper crimp is used on cartridges that headspace on the mouth (most semi-autos).

I don't believe the theory that the FCD reduces the bullet diameter anywhere other than under the crimp. I've been using the Lee FCD on several calibers because I believe that seating and crimping in one step will shave a little copper off the bullet. As the crimp is being applied, the bullet is still moving down in the brass, possibly shearing off a small amount of copper from the bullet. I'm loading some 38 right now with 125 Berry's. I'll pull a few and check the diameter before and after and post the results.

Glad to hear you figured your problem out 71velle. With my 357/38 Lee factory crimp die I always use about a 3/4 turn crimp setting on the FCD. I turn it down until contact when at the top of the ram stroke on the press, then back off a bit on the ram and turn the adjustment screw on the top of the FCD another 3/4 turn. I scribed a line across the top of the adjustment screw on the FCD to make it easy to index it after finding where it comes in contact with the case mouth.

I couldn't stand the suspense so I went and loaded a couple dummy 38 rounds using 125 grain Berry bullets. Using mixed headstamps, I noticed that the PMC brass required the most effort to push through the FCD, while the R-P required the least. I loaded one of each using what I consider a medium crimp, trying to duplicate the appearance of the factory rounds. Then I pulled the bullets. The bullets mic'd at 0.356 before seating and crimping and 0.356 after, no change other than the crimp.

Just a caution...you CAN over-crimp on those plated bullets, so don't get to thinking that even more is even better.

You want enough crimp for good combustion and to prevent bullet creep, but too much can compromise the plated jacket. The makers warn about this. If you see any evidence of odd-shaped or ragged holes in the target when most holes are round, it's an indication the plating is tearing. I love the plated stuff for my auto cartridges, but I've moved away from loading them in 38 and 44 revolvers because I got tired of dancing around this same issue. Taper crimping works in heavy revolvers, but even that places restrictions on powder choice and accuracy potential.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

^^Agreed. Except I get by with not even 1/4 a turn on my Lee dies! That said, I mostly stick to very fast powders for .38 anyway.

I personally still suspect that the problem might actually be occurring in the expansion step. The crimp, I believe, is band-aid-ing it.

Unfortunately, I have about 100/150 cases ready for powder and bullet so I will try expanding less on the next batch. I didnt realize the importance of a crimp either.

Being new to this its great having experienced and knowledgeable guys to help. I wish I posed the problem a little earlier!!

Thanks again for all the advice!!!!!