I'm working up various loads (light, medium and heavy) for the 32 caliber revolvers I've become enamored of. The current project is to load something that approaches the Buffalo Bore 100g JHP +P load that I have in my daily carry gun. This is for practice - at ~$1.25/shot the BB is too expensive to practice with.

The BB rounds average 1130fps from a Ruger LCR, and 1294fps from a 4 5/8" Ruger Single 7. (These are 327 Federal Magnum guns - I carry S&W J frames, but the test results I'm concerned about were all done in the Rugers, for a bit of extra safety.) I started with Starline cases, WSP primers and 100g XTP bullets. Hodgdon data (admittedly for Speer JHPs, not Hornady) suggested Lil Gun powder would likely give the highest velocity for the lowest pressure, so I tried some, working up to 11.2g which is 0.2g above their maximum published load.

That load recorded 1031fps out of the 2" LCR, and 1168fps from the Single 7. I'm looking to match 1130 and 1294, respectively, so I decided to step up the powder charge. The general understanding is that factory 32 H&R loads, and published reloading data, are limited by the strength of the original H&R revolvers, and that S&W revolvers are considerably stronger. (Buffalo Bore packaging and web site say explicitly that their +P 32 H&R loads are NOT to be used in H&R guns, and BB has advised me that their +P stuff is safe for unlimited use in my 30-1 and 31-1 guns that have been reamed from 32 Long to 32 H&R.) So I'm not too worried about stepping over the published maximum powder charges by a bit.

With that in mind I made up 10 rounds each of loads at 11.2, 11.4, 11.6 and 11.8g of Lil Gun. (For reference, Hodgdon's data for this powder and 100g JHPs in 327 Federal Magnum runs from 12.7g to 14.0g, with pressures from 25,600 to 27,900psi, admittedly in a larger case. So I didn't think I was straying into dangerous territory with my loads. Still, I did my testing in the Ruger 327 guns.)

I didn't have enough XTP bullets on hand for this batch, so I substituted Rainier 100g flat point plated bullets. I know, bad science to change 2 variables at once, but I thought (1) plated bullets are supposed to be closer to lead than jacketed and so might go a bit faster than XTPs for the same powder charge, and (2) if I could make 'em work it would further reduce the cost of the practice loads. And I think my goal of ~1200fps is still below the recommended max for plated bullets.

But the results across the chronograph were strange. Plated bullets over 11.2g of Lil Gun averaged 917 and 1124fps out of the short and long barrels, respectively, compared to 1031 and 1168fps for the XTP bullets over the same charge from the same guns a few days earlier. Lower velocities in each case, where I would have expected at least equal and more probably higher speeds.

The larger powder charges were more perplexing, though, From the longer barrel, the Single 7, charges of 11.4, 11.6 and 11.8g resulted in average velocities of 1129, 1125 and 1123fps. In addition to essentially flat velocities, the larger powder charges had extreme spreads of 81, 74, 137 and 215fps. This was due to the fact that the lowest velocity in the string dropped as the powder charge went up - 1095, 1086, 1048 and 996fps. The largest powder charge did have the fastest individual shot at 1211fps, but also the slowest at 996fps.

The 2" LCR gave slightly more "normal" velocity spreads, with 917, 942, 954 and 968fps at the increasing powder charges. But the highest speed individual shot was 1037fps with the 11.4g charge, which also had the lowest velocity at 899fps. (That was also the low for the 11.2g load.) And none of the average velocities even approached 1000fps.

Powder charges were thrown with a Redding 3BR powder measure. My Lee factory crimp die was adjusted to put less crimp on the plated bullets than I'd used on the cannelured JHPs (or than I use on coated lead bullets with a crimp groove.) Primers were not flattened to any extent with any of the loads in either gun, and cases extracted normally. The insides of the cylinder window in the gun frames were reasonably clean, indicating that the loads did seal the cases fairly solidly against the chamber walls.

I've never experienced flat velocities with increasing powder charges. And I don't understand the declining low velocities in the strings. Is this something others have experienced? Is it likely related to the plated bullets? Or is it likely to be powder related?

Any thoughts will be appreciated.

Slower velocities with plated bullets versus jacketed bullets or lead bullets is something I've noted before myself. I don't know the science behind this phenomena, but I've seen it also. I would assume it has to do with higher friction of the plated bullets, but that is just a WAG. As to the velocity variations and the flat versus progressive velocities with increased charges of powder tell me that you are hitting the high side of that powder's limits. And I also think that you might be seeing some problems with the lighter crimp and the plated rounds too, especially if you haven't checked your brass for OAL lately. IF your brass OAL is varying quite a bit, that would definitely have an affect on the crimps being applied. And that could explain the increasing extreme spreads.

You didn't mention what primer you were using??

some times more powder does not increase velocities, you see this in rifles quite a bit.......dan

Could it be the lower resistance of the plated versus jacketed causing a pressure drop ?

Eddie

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Don't blame your powder.....

There was a thread that posted the friction of different types of bullets and how they lost or gained fps over the other bullets.

Plated lost the most fps due to friction and lead gave the highest fps depending on its hardness.

Stay safe.

Just some generic remarks about the .32 H&R, take it however you will.

In the .32 H&R the Starline cases are stronger than Federal. Case heads can be stretched and destroyed with loads that are acceptable in Starline. I load my SP-101 heavier than I will my 631 since the 631 is not on the J Magnum frame.

Velocities flattening, or even going down, is a generally well known phenomenon. It is often observed in .357 and .41 Magnums. It is most typically seen with propellants in the range of burning rate from 2400 to 296/H110. I have reached this point in .357, .41 and .32 H&R. This is not to say that pressure is flat or reduced however! This will usually only be seen by reloaders who engage in what is, admittedly, experimental loading beyond the manuals. Doing this sometimes you just have to accept the fact that someday you may destroy a gun! (Never have yet!!!)

I have been able to achieve 1389 FPS with a 115 gr. cast bullet, Lyman 3118, in the 4" SP-101. The thing shoots like a rifle with these charges.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Interesting - so plated bullets have even higher resistance than jacketed? I thought I remembered that originally plated bullets were supposed to be loaded using lead bullet data, which I had assumed was based on comparative bullet resistance going down the barrel.

I have never paid attention to case length of revolver rounds before, but I've never tried to load above published levels before either. So I think I will take the suggestion to uniform the case lengths, and probably will add just a bit more crimp, and then re-run the series at the same charges to see if that makes a difference in velocity or uniformity or, hopefully, both.

Thanks to all for the quick comeback.

BTW, I used WSP primers. I've tried magnum primers in other 32 H&R loads I've worked up (admittedly with othe powders) and found they did not give any better velocities and sometimes gave worse. So I'll stick with the WSPs for now.

Edited to add: I started writing this before Alk8944's comments showed up. Thanks for the perspective on magnum loads - I never did much heavy magnum reloading, in the sense that I never went past published maximum charges, which may be why I've not personally seen the flattening of velocities. Even though I haven't got this particular load worked out, I HAVE noticed that other loads I've worked up shot smaller groups the faster the bullets went. With the Buffalo Bore round I'm trying to match having about the smallest groups of all.

With your bullet change, how much of the bullet was seated in the case in each instance? You could be dealing with varying case volume depending upon that fact. That will change your pressures/velocities.

Stu

I believe that plated have less resistance than jacketed resulting in a less efficient powder burn and less velocity. The slower pistol powders need resistance to burn properly either from a heavy crimp or heavy bullet. A plated bullet with less resistance is not giving the powder what it wants. Try with a faster powder or straight cast.

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Front sight and squeeze

I would tend to agree mtgianni. Plated are as I understand swaged lead with a thin copper plate so really soft. I do not use them myself as I can get regular cast or even jacketed bullets for the same or a lot less and shoot them at any speed.

Thanks for all the info. Stu1ritter, the bullets were all seated with a full press stroke, so I don't think internal volume was the problem. (Since the bullet seater sets the distance from seater stem contact point on the bullet to the base of the case, internal volume is only affected by irregularities in bullet nose shape, not case length.)

As for the rest, based on what I see as a consensus of sorts, I think the prudent step is to reload my next test set with XTP bullets, seated to the cannelure, and with my "regular" crimp setting back in place. I probably won't trim cases, but will select 40 that are well inside the maximum/trim-to lengths so the crimp tension should be reasonably consistent. I'll still shoot 'em in the 327 guns.

The cost/bullet is about 10 cents for plated and 17 for XTP, and since these are not going to be shot in any volume (no fun at all in an airweight J frame, and just a bit more tolerable in a 3" M31-1) I won't worry about the difference. Total round cost will still be WAY less than the $1+ for Buffalo Bore.

Thanks again for the quick help.

I had some of the same inconsistencies with plated bullets. I no longer use any. I settled on AA #5 and am getting great accuracy. See the chart for what I loaded.


I did the chrono work with the 16-4, and you can see just how accurate it is.


I later chrono'd with my 431PD (1 7/8" barrel) and get over 1000 fps with the 6.3 gr. load.

Needless to say, I really like the 32 H&R round.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I was talking about the difference in length from the cannalure to the base of the bullet between the XTP and the plated. Are they identical length. If you seat more of the bullet into the case you raise the pressure and vise versa. I wasn't talking about seating each individual bullet.

Stu

Interesting results. I've been a fan of Accurate powders for decades (the first ones I used were made in Israel, which I thought of as a bonus at the time - support a friend, and all) and my mind just latched on to the 2, 5, 7, 9 progression of their pistol powders as a nice, simple system. I've always had those powders on the shelf. But I've not tried #5 over the published max levels of 5.0g for 100g JHPs.

I've got a new set made up with well-crimped XTP bullets loaded with Lil Gun at 11.2, 11.4, 11.6 and 11.8g, and am off to the range to try 'em out. Last decent weather day for about a week, so it's time to go.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I seated the plated bullets a bit longer than the XTPs, as the 11+g of Lil Gun appears to pretty much fill the available space with a 100g XTP seated to the cannelure. I thought a little extra space might be a good idea.

Anyway, as I posted above, I'm back to trying the XTPs. We'll see how that goes.

Just a thought, I used Lil Gun in .221 FireBall and had bad results. I stayed well below the max loads, but had pressure problems in some of the rounds. I looked into the variables i.e. primer, primer pocket, brass, seating depth etc. The final variable changed was the powder. I started using AA1680 and resolved the problem.

I don't load or shoot the 32H&R mag, but I have done a lot with 32-20 and 32 S&W Long. After having Little gun blow the sides out of 218 Bee on their first loading with 8% less than max loads, I avoid it like the plague!

The Hornady XTP bullets did a really good job from 32-20 in 4" and 6" revolvers. As do the cast 115/117 32-20 bullets.

Ivan

Well, the second go, with XTP bullets, wasn't much different from the plated ones. With both the Single 7 and LCR, velocities were higher with the XTP bullets than with plated. But with the XTPs, the highest individual velocities, and highest average velocities, were with the lowest of the 4 charges of Lil Gun - 11.2g. The lowest velocities with all 4 different charges were practically identical - around 1088 for the Single 7 and 1050 for the LCR. Extreme spreads and standard deviations were much lower with the LCR than the Single 7.

The 11.2g load was almost at the velocity of the Buffalo Bore load in the LCR. But given the peculiar performance of Lil Gun in these tests, I don't have any confidence that it's behaving normally, and so am not going to use it to make practice loads. I think I'll follow H Richard's path, and explore Accurate #5, of which I have a good supply.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

I've always thought that THIS is the fun in the game. Trying and trying, using a chrono and a target at 25 yards, to get the most velocity, and the most accuracy combined in a single load. It's quite the feeling to get the velocity figures you want with a group that makes one hole at 25 yards.

Stu

Due to the known problems of the premature and excessive forcing cone erosion it causes, I have not used Lil' Gun in my revolvers for several years. When I did use Lil' Gun, what I found was it liked heavy for caliber bullets and a heavy crimp to perform best. That said, There could be a myriad of reasons for the results you are having. As for the decrease in velocity from XTPs to plated. Could be fit to bore as the tighter the fit, the more pressure create, thus higher velocity with the XTPs. Seating to longer OAL and decreasing the amount of bullet in the case may reduce pressure also, thus reducing velocity. Do the plated bullets have a cannelure? Slow burning magnum powders like Lil' Gun do best when combined with a heavy crimp to help with ignition. Many times plated revolver bullets do not have a cannelure and cannot take the heavy crimp needed for slow burning powders. Thus velocity suffers. As for the big spread in velocities, were cases trimmed to length? While many folks clam they never trim handgun cases, IME, trimming revolver cases used for max charged magnum rounds using slow burning powders so that crimp is consistent, gives me the most consistent velocities and accuracy. This is my next question, how was accuracy. Far too many times I see folks more interested in the velocities they are getting than with the accuracy of the loads. Myself personally, will give up a little velocity in favor of increased accuracy. Another reason for the larger spread in velocities may be the consistency of the plated bullets themselves. Many "plinker" type plated bullets are not as precisely made as precision bullets like the XTPs and vary more in weight and dimension. Kinda why they are priced lower. As for losing velocity as the powder charge is increased, this is a common phenomenon with handgun cartridges, especially when using slow burning powders. Whenever I see this, I know there is little point in continuing to increase the powder charge.

The plated bullets do not have a cannelure. And I've read warnings in the past about not crimping plated bullets too hard - so I didn't. As for the cases, they were not trimmed, but were measured and selected to fall within a 0.004" spread in the middle of the trim-to/maximum case length range.

Another thing I noticed upon looking back over my Lil Gun tests is that when I first tried the XTPs and loaded them over lower charges, the results with 9.5g (which is below Hodgdon's recommended starting load) were less than 100fps slower than with the 11.8g charge. Just another "way too strange" nail in the coffin of this powder for this application, for me.

Stu, you're right about this being a lot of the fun of reloading for me these days. Just wish it didn't have to involve a 2 hour round trip drive to the range each time. And as for 1-hole groups at 25 yards - well, on a good day I can do that with a rifle on a solid bench with a good scope. But I'm always shocked to see what the laser dot does at only 7 yards before I light one off. My best loads put 5 shots in a 1.25" target dot with a 2 handed hold. (I did manage a 2" group at 15 yards the other day with a 432PD from a rest - with a green laser grip assist.)

Wrangler 5, I'm going to echo the concerns posted by buck460XVR. I would not be using Lil'gun in my revolvers.

When you did your tests did you notice how very hot the gun was?

Add the fact Lil'Gun is a very slow powder for what you are doing I suggest it's a bad choice. Your tests are telling you it's not the right choice. Velocities staying the same or dropping when you increase powder charges is telling you to choose a different powder that is somewhat faster.

I would give Longshot, W572, HS-6, Power Pistol and maybe 2400 a try instead.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

wrengler5, now we are getting somewhere. Just a data point, I've been working on my 431PD for about a year now trying to get a cast load that shoots to POA. I've tried full wadcutters, SWC's, and some jacketed and nothing has worked. I've probably tried 15 powders. Finally, I bought one of the 115gr. NOE Keith molds, cast up a bunch and voila'. 50 ft. This was a 6 o'clock hold. 4.0 gr. SR4756 turned out to be the load that did it. It's on the warm side but I haven't chrono'd it yet, but will shortly. This was initially very frustrating to get this revolver to shoot to POA but the feeling of success is really nice. It was shooting 4" right and 4-5" low with everything I tried.

Stu

Ah, our old friend SR 4756.

Hey, folks, thanks for a neat thread. I have nothing to contribute, as I don't load for this caliber (though I do put together .32 S&W Long loads from Sharpe's book for my Improved I-frame and my swingout H&R, and they're pretty fantastic), but I sure am enjoying it.

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Now go make God proud...

While I'm not the OP, I'd like to comment on this. When I used Lil' gun in my M16-4, the heat it produced was hard to ignore. Compared to other powders loaded to similar velocities, the heating of the gun was striking. I figured it couldn't be good and quit using the powder in 32 H&R.

Stu, be sure to post your chrono results. I load a lot of cast bullets in my I Frames, and one particular 115 gr. FNL from Missouri Bullet Co does very well, but after 50 or so I tend to get a little leading just past the forcing cone. But it is so much fun to see those 1 hole groups at 10-15 yards you hate to quit. I have never gotten into the bullet casting, so rely on what I can buy. The MO Bullet Co rounds are "optimized" for cowboy action and I'm guessing are a little too soft for what I am pushing them.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Will do Dick. My range is closed this week for lead removal on both sides but I should be able to get over there beginning of next week. I'm very curious also. I expect some leading but not sure. I usually cast around bhn 11 and I think these might need to be cast a bit harder which I can do on the next batch. There was a little bit evident in the 16-4 when I tested them but none in the 431.

Stu

The 32s I'm most concerned with are 2" J frames that I (and, hopefully, my wife) will carry, and all of 'em have Crimson Trace laser grips. So shooting to the sights isn't a huge consideration - they're adjustable. And even with the irons, the maximum expected operating distance is 7-10 yards and my target is roughly the 6-8" -0- scoring "rings" of the IDPA target.

I do have a 3" 31-1 that I have reamed to take 32 H&R cases, and I'm working on a load that has some more punch than a 32 Long and still shoots to the sights on that gun (it wears a Pachmayr Compac grip, not a CT laser.) It tends to shoot low and to the right with the 100g coated lead "practice" rounds I make up with 4.7g of #5. Plans are to see if a 115g coated lead bullet will bring the POI up a bit, as I would expect it to do. Not sure what to do about the windage.

BTW, I have found that the coated lead bullets shoot VERY clean in my guns, leaving practically nothing on the cylinder faces and nothing but unburned powder (sometimes) in the barrels. I've used MO Bullet, ACME and SNS brands, all with the same results. SNS used to offer gold bullets, which helped to keep different loads straight once they were out of their marked boxes, but everybody seems to be using red now. (Apparently anything that might even look like copper gets extra scrutiny at Cowboy Action matches, which require lead-only bullets, so red coating keeps the ammo cops at bay. Sigh.)

When did you have this happen with the Bee ? They had an early batch of Little Gun that was mixed with Titegroup .

Eddie

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I have heard a lot if things about Lil'Gun, both positive and negative but high or spiking pressures isn't one of them. As a matter if fact, high velocities at lower than expected pressures is one if it's claims to fame.

Are you sure it was the fault if the powder in this case? Lil'Gun has singlehandedly brought back the 22 Hornet because if the increased velocity and fairly low pressures.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Tried lil-gun in Ruger single six32 mag years ago, with Speer 100 gn jhp.

And yes velocity's fattened out, even lessoned at certain point before climbing very slightly up. Decided it was not worth it for the extra 25 fps and very quick top strap erosion. Did end up with very accurate load, but not equal velocity to what is described for buffalo bore plus p.

Switched to 85 gn xtp and n-110 for slightly less velocity, equal accuracy and predictable pressure curve (by velocity) pressure.

For me, it flattened at 11.2 Gr. Going higher did not significantly raise the velocity. Shot from Ruger Single Six, 100 gr xtp, WSP, it averaged 1270 fps. I mostly shoot hunters supply 115 lead bullets cause the POI and POA is on at 25 yds, I use 231 powder/550 primers and keep it under 1000 fps. It's fun to shoot, but when I feel the "need for speed" out comes the S&W .357.

Apologies for taking so long to post chrono results on my 32H&R SR 4756 loads. The load is 4.0 gr. of SR4756 under the 115 gr. NOE Keith style SWC
In my 16-4 4" barrel 778fps ES30 SD10
In my 431PD 673fps ES57 SD22
All strings 10 shots. There was light to moderate primer flattening with easy extraction so I think there is still some room to play.

Stu

Here's another 115g data point:

SNS Casting LRNFP over 2.6g Titegroup out of a 2" 30-1 that has been reamed to take 32 H&R.

Avg Vel 663fps, ES 18, SD 6.0 - right up there with the best ES and SD I've seen in all my H&R loads.

Hodgdon doesn't offer any load data for 115g bullets in 32 H&R, but 2.6g of Titegroup is below their recommended start load for a 100g JHP, so I don't feel like it's too far past the hairy edge.

I would sure like to see some other load suggestions for the 115 Keith style. There is very little load data available for this on line.

thanks,

Stu