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Old 02-04-2017, 04:20 PM
TwoPoundPull TwoPoundPull is offline
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Default .38 Super/Special?

For easier insertion and extraction of moon clips in my 627, I'd like a shorter cartridge. Not wanting to use .38 short colt, I trimmed some .38 special brass down to .900", the length of a .38 super case. Case volume is within 1/2gn. using 231, (the trimmed special held a little more). There is more load data for the super than the short. Before I invest in .38 short/long dies for this "wildcat" cartridge, do we see any issues, and/or am I asking for trouble.
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Old 02-04-2017, 05:47 PM
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You shouldn't have a problem if you use the correct powder and bullet weight.

I went the 38 short colt route. I don't think anybody uses original old short colt loads as they were too low to begin with. I use 9mm loads in my cases. Around starting gr. Bought new cases from starline and new Lee's carbide dies. Everything is literally readily available to load. I've used 115gr, 124gr and 125gr. 9mm and 38s. There's nothing the 627 won't eat!

Easier loading- extraction. Worlds apart from trying to load 8 moonclipped magnums!







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  #3  
Old 02-04-2017, 06:38 PM
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I think it should work out well. I'd be inclined to start with 38 ACP load data.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:32 PM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
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You can use your 38 special sizer and adjust 9mm dies for seat and crimp. If you have 9mm dies it cost you nothing, if you need to buy them they are less expensive or more common used anyway.

Ivan
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Old 02-05-2017, 01:04 AM
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Tried Short Colt, and just wasn't comfortable with pressure using my favored 160 grain bullet.
Going to .900" (AKA 38 Mid) worked out just fine.
I use the thickest (.025") moons, along with Federal or Remington cases that fit best.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:50 AM
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Why not just use super cases?
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:44 AM
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They'll probably fall out of the speed loader.
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Old 02-05-2017, 01:55 PM
TwoPoundPull TwoPoundPull is offline
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Super cases don't fit the cylinder.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:08 PM
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I have the same gun but not a comp shooter, but is the reason for this to aid in loading the clips into the gun faster? Speed up the reload? So they are not dangling around??

To be honest I hate clips even though I have nice loader and de mooner. It's like loading a gun twice but understand if it is for competition.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:34 PM
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The 357's case length makes them wobbly in clips.
Remember that clips were first made for .45 ACP that has that big extractor groove. This allows for sturdy clips and short rounds make loading easy. And that .45 cylinder is mostly air. Just watch Jerry Miculek in action.
After one match with the TRR8, it was obvious that something better was necessary. The issue was thoroughly aired on a popular competition forum, with short(er) cases being the final solution.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:02 PM
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1) .38 Super is loaded to higher pressure, so I hope you aren't asking about using .38 Super load data
2) If the COL is the same as .38 Spl, the load data is the same. If the COL is shorter, than you are on your own and should at least look at data for a cartridge of the same or shorter length
3) Amazing that since 1908, clips have worked well enough in revolvers that I never heard this complaint. I have heard such about speed loaders, but RN bullets were the general solution.
Since it sounds like a universal complaint, there must be a standard "solution" out there that has already been tried and tested. If not, be sure to share your results with Jerry and the rest.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:01 PM
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.762 case length short colt case vs. .754 9mm case.

You can safely load 38 shorts at starting 9mm loads. I do. These are yesterday's cases shooting a 929 9mm and a 627 38/357- shooting 9mms out of a short colt case.

I shoot more shorts now than magnums or specials. When shooting 500 rounds/hour, having those shorts just drop in helps. Longer cases don't help.

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Old 02-05-2017, 09:38 PM
TwoPoundPull TwoPoundPull is offline
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The issue I sometimes have is extraction, cases not clearing the cylinder, especially when chambers get a little dirty. It's a non-issue with the 986 and short 9mm brass.
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Old 02-06-2017, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPoundPull View Post
Super cases don't fit the cylinder.
LOL, I figured you could resize it with a 38/357 sizer & it would fit but I just tried it and the 38 Super case ends up with a ridge near the web. Maybe if they made a push-thru sizer for it?

38 Super = .384" vs. 357 Mag = .379" OD

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Old 02-06-2017, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
LOL, I figured you could resize it with a 38/357 sizer & it would fit but I just tried it and the 38 Super case ends up with a ridge near the web. Maybe if they made a push-thru sizer for it?

38 Super = .384" vs. 357 Mag = .379" OD

.
Whats funny,

I just tried a new .38 Super brass in my .38 special, and a loaded Super...

BOTH FIT!!!!

The proper moonclip should also be available... From .38 auto to 9x23 theres LOTS of load data.

(could be the Starline brass too!!)

Last edited by shovelwrench; 02-06-2017 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelwrench View Post
I just tried a new .38 Super brass in my .38 special, and a loaded Super...

BOTH FIT!!!!
My empty 38 Super cases didn't fit in any of my 357s. That's funny.

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Old 02-07-2017, 01:38 AM
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I have eight .38/.357 revolvers and some will accept ACP/Super and some won't. Those that will, will only accept new unfired. None of mine will accept fired or resized. Haven't tried resizing in .357 sizer, but would expect same result as BLUEDOT37 got.

Larry
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  #18  
Old 02-07-2017, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPoundPull View Post
The issue I sometimes have is extraction, cases not clearing the cylinder, especially when chambers get a little dirty. It's a non-issue with the 986 and short 9mm brass.
This is the reason most comp shooters go to the long colt or short colt, the stroke off the ejector rod is not long enough to push the cases all the way out, so they use shorter brass. This helps with faster reloads and quicker ejections of spent/part spent moonclips. With short colts start with coresponding 9mm start loads of the the same weight and work up, for long colts start about mid way loads for 9mm and check for power factor with chrono to get up to where you want to be
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:54 AM
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"Before I invest in .38 short/long dies for this "wildcat" cartridge,"
I load .38 SC with normal .38 Special dies. I don't need a 9mm seating die, but maybe it's just my dies (I don't crimp). As noted, SOME .38/357 revolvers will chamber (and fire) SOME brands of .38 Super ammunition. And of course you could size .38 Super brass in .38 Special dies for revolver use so that wouldn't be a problem assuming the moon clips would otherwise work OK with them.

I find .38 SC to be ideal for use in snubby .38 Special revolvers - fired brass extracts completely when .38 Special brass won't.

Last edited by DWalt; 02-08-2017 at 12:57 AM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
"Before I invest in .38 short/long dies for this "wildcat" cartridge,"

I find .38 SC to be ideal for use in snubby .38 Special revolvers - fired brass extracts completely when .38 Special brass won't.
I have some Starline cases and the Lee Short Colt Die set ordered and on its way with using them in my 642 in mind. Are you using the 9mm loads as your starting point? Any advice on powders and bullets you've had luck with in your J frame would be greatly appreciated.






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Old 02-13-2017, 12:48 AM
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It kinda sucks that the .38 special was developed a year or two before smokeless powder came out. A Short Colt case is all you need to get .38 special performance with smokeless powder. Think of how much more compact revolvers could be, especially J frames.
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQer View Post
I have some Starline cases and the Lee Short Colt Die set ordered and on its way with using them in my 642 in mind. Are you using the 9mm loads as your starting point? Any advice on powders and bullets you've had luck with in your J frame would be greatly appreciated.






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Do not fire modified 38 short Colts with 9mm loads out of a 38 special barrel. Must be rated for 357. 9mm and 357 pressures are about the same. And specials are half that.

You can fire originally loaded 38 short Colts. 7k cup pressure. Some starting 9mm loads might be around 30,000. Just around Magnum levels. (Going by memory) specials are 15k.

So, in "short", use a revolver rated for 357s, with modified 38 short colt loads.

(If I didn't explain this right , I'm sure someone will chime in)



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Old 02-13-2017, 01:28 PM
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Finally got to my manuals:

38 special 125gr: average 15k c.u.of pressure

357 magnum 125gr: 40k cup average

38 short colt 93gr originally loaded: 7k cup!

9mm 124g :30k cup

So, do not use anything other than 38 specials in a barrel designated/ rated 38 specials. Unless you are loading shorts to their original loading. And not anywhere near a starting 9mm loading. Disaster may occur, harming you and bystanders!

You can however, fire 9mm loads in a 357 rated barrel. Perfectly fine.

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Old 02-14-2017, 08:11 PM
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I normally use .38 SC cases loaded toward the upper end of .38 S&W reloading data recommendations. I also prefer to use lighter-weight lead bullets, especially 125 grain. You can use fairly hot .38 LC reloads in any .38 Special revolver without any worries. But I wouldn't try to duplicate 9mm loads. If you have a chronograph, you can experiment to get what you want. It's not too difficult to safely duplicate any .38 Special standard velocity loading with any bullet weight.
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