Hi,
I'm somewhat new at reloading but I go rather SLOW with every step (check and RE-check) everything. My question is, is I am using "Titegroup" 14.5 starting gr for reloading my S&W 500. I use large rifle primers for brass (marked with "R" on case). Using 440 Hard Cast Lead bullets (powder coated). Anyway, Hodgdon's load data states using the starting gr at 14.5. Well I have 22 rounds that I reloaded with above info but haven't shot yet. Reason being, I read on some forum that a fellow blew his gun up using this recipe. (Bear in mind I am also using a heavy crimp to prevent blow-by, and no I am not using gas checks.) I guess what I am asking, is have you heard ANYONE who reloads .500 with Titegroup powder have any problems?

Well Hodgdon's emailed me back and said there no reports of erratic behavior with the load I mentioned. I did test about 20 rounds and all launched fine (except for accuracy).

If someone blew-up their 500 with that load it wasn't because of erractic (powder) behavior, it was because of an accidental double charge of powder. That's what you NEED to guard against.

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Waiting for the break of day

Yep, that would be my worry too. Small charges of fast powders in large to very large cases are harder to spot if there is a double charge loaded into the case.

Since you're newer I thought it worth mentioning that I have better luck with accuracy in general, when the case is 75% or more filled with powder. I'm not saying you won't find an accurate load with the tightgroup, but using a slower powder that fills that big case better gives you a better chance of finding an accurate and efficient load. I do load for the .500 from time to time and keep some N105 around for that purpose. N105 is a little spendy, but at the price of .500 factory ammo spending a little more on powder seems insignificant to me. If you want a lighter loading try some Trailboss it will fill up the case and not bruise your hand.

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Trucks and guns.

Thanks for the replies. Yes, Trailboss may be the ticket. When I was at the range (indoor) last night, and loading only one round at a time for the first few, making sure a NEW hole at least hit paper, I then confidently then loaded 5 at a time. Oddly enough I noticed a few "holes" in target and some places where the big 440's appeared to have "tumbled" through lol. First thing came to mind was "run-out" in my rounds, but I examined each one to make sure they were all straight after being seated. Anyway, it won't happen over night, but I'll get there!

Thanks again guys.

No he KB his gun because he double charge, waaaay to easy to do in a huge case like the 500. IMO, just the wrong powder for the 500, any bullet weight. If you want softer loads, get a smaller caliber? I like medium burners for less than max loads in any of the magnums, though I do not own a 500, yet.
BTW, runout really never comes into play in a handgun round. Tumbling is often one of two things; a too heavy bullet running too slow or a bullet too small in dia or both. It's a stability thing.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Are you sure the bullets were tumbling? Many times you can get an oblong hole if you are shooting a hanging paper target. Shooting a target stapled to a solid cardboard backing will get you much cleaner holes.

Makes sense about the tumbling effect and whether a target is just hanging or stapled to a solid board. At any rate, I succeeded in getting the rounds to exit the cannon, lol.have to work on a slight "leading" issue now. Used 2 coats of powdercoating but I didn't use gas checks. What is the ideal combo? My lead I'm using has the highest brinell strength or close to it.

I don't have a 500 , but lead issues are the same in any caliber .
First , you're not shooting full magnum loads so your bullet hardness could very well be too hard for the velocity / pressure you are shooting .
Second , I really feel your problem is " fit " . Can you push your bullets through the cylinder with only slight pressure ? I would definitely check the cylinder throats measurement , then slug the barrel to get the " groove diameter " . I'm thinking your cylinder throats are probably smaller than the barrel dimension . You might even have a " choke " where the barrel threads onto the frame . When they are indexing the front sight to the rear sight , if they over tighten the barrel it causes a tight spot at that junction point . There are several considerations when one shoots cast bullets in a revolver . You might want to start with plated bullets , if they are available for the 500 . I shoot cast bullets in all my revolvers , but it has been a " learning " experience to get there .
To clean lead out of a barrel , simply buy some " Chore Boy " scouring pads . They are pure copper . Cut a pad , wrap it around the bore brush and in less than a couple of minutes you will of completely removed all the lead . Do NOT buy aftermarket scouring pads that claim to be copper for they are steel with a copper coating . Chore Boy is available at most walmarts or Ace Hdwe stores .

Yes I'm going to try slower powder and YES "cowboy4evr" I'll definitely check out those measurements. I was unsure if you were talking about pushing bullets through "cylinder" or "barrel". Another thing I have to do is mic my bullet sizer from Lee who claims it's .501. And yes, I have some pure lead ingots I may add to the ingots I've been using so far. Don't have a "lead test kit" per say. Anyway it might take a year or so before I actually find the "perfect load". I just ain't to keen on paying 35.00-70.00 per 20 rounds for the mammoth. I'll find some Chore boy too. Sorry about being long winded.

With a powder coated bullet getting a good fit is still very important so be sure to measure the cylinders and bore and bullets. If your bullets are a tad small you can PC up a couple thousandths and make them fit. All the info you got above is excellent. Slower powder, bullet size/fit...patience haha.

If you are using a factory crimp die be careful that the lead bullet isn't being sized down during the crimp stage.

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Trucks and guns.

I don't have a 500 but with my Colt longs I load each one individually not progressively and do a visual on them before I press the bullet.
like what's been said its hard to judge a double on the large, but to be extra safe I dump one on the scale and re weigh charge the case record its weight , and weigh each one loaded case to make sure they are pretty much the same. I know it is a long process, but beats only needing a half a pair of gloves

Just another reason TG is not a powder I will load. It doesn't play well with lead bullets. Check your bullet dia, bigger is better. Check each cyl throat, a small throat sizes any bullet to that dia & you get leading, especially early in the bbl. I shoot PC bullets, one coat, to 2000fps w/ no leading in rifles, so any handgun vel should work fine with proper bullet fit, a minimum of 0.001" over bore size.
All magnums are expensive to shoot. Trying to save $$ on powder with TG is just false economy IMO. Tg will save you a 1/2 penny over say Unique & you will get better results with the Unique.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I originally bought the TG for my 45 acp. Since I had it I tried it on the 50. No more though!

I've used H110 mostly with the 500 with no problems, although I have also used Unique for reduced power loads for friends that want to shoot it for the first time. YMMV.

So, I measured each hole in front of cylinder and each measured .498 exactly. Measured a bullet and it measured a tad over the .500 mark (I spun bullet several times to get an average). I am aware of and informed by a few reputable sources that in order to reduce the amount of hot gases that want to "blow by" the round, well one of course is a GC, the other making sure your round is .001 to .002 larger than the "cylinder exit hole". I am heeding all of your advice! One dumb question though concerning "crimps" -is it better to just seat all bullets and then back off seating plug and then adjust die to crimp? I did everything in one step last time. I DID keep the COL consistent. Also next time I cast, going to see if sizing is even necessary depending on the fresh diameter from mold.

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I heard ya! After swinging a 22 ounce Estwing for 30 years and using worm drive saws it kinda conditioned me to handle the 500. I've shot 700 gr. magnum rounds and never really bothered me. I WILL try H110 and Unique in upcoming reloads though.

As far as crimping the .500 yes imop it is better to seat and crimp separately. It's a big heavy walled case and as the he crimp closes it usually takes considerably more pressure to finish seating the bullet. This can deform the nose of the bullet, or possibly buckle the case. Don't ask me how I know;P.

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Trucks and guns.

Your bullets should be 1-2 thousandths bigger than the groove diameter of the barrel , not the cylinder exit hole (cylinder throats) . If the cylinder throats are smaller , they will size down your cast bullets . Your bullets should push through the cylinder itself with just finger pressure .
You need to slug the barrel . You want that slug (dead soft lead) to just enter about 1/8th of an inch into the barrel , muzzle end , pull it out and measure . The rifling on a smith makes it a little difficult to measure , just take your time , get several readings and you will determine the " groove diameter of the barrel . Now you will be able to determine what size your cast bullets should be . I bet your cast bullets need to be about .502 min. And remember , they need to push through the cylinder throats with just finger pressure , not pounding on them with a hammer . For about $15 you can buy a little booklet that explains all of this in detail from Veral Smith @ LBT Molds , called " Jacketed Performance with Cast bullets " . The booklet goes into much more detail and explains how to fix problematic details . If I remember correctly , for about $10 you can buy a small pkg of slugs made exclusively to measuring the barrel . He has them in many calibers . If you are unsure of the measurement after you have taken it ? You can send him the slug and he will measure it for you . Gas checks do not always solve a problem of leading a barrel . Getting the correct " Fit " is very important in obtaining reliable accuracy and solving the problem of leading a barrel .

hmmm...

- Calipers will get you in the ballpark but pin gages are a better choice if you can.

- If you haven't already, it's also good to measure your bullet lengthwise. Bullets aren't always of uniform diameter. Checking lengthwise will quickly tell you what diameter will actually present itself (i.e., the largest diameter) to the throats. I've bought more than one brand's bullets that were larger, or small, at the base or shoulder than the other, or even the middle.

-Buy a separate die for crimping, especially with lead bullets.

. .

If you're going to slug your barrel, I suggest you pound the bullet all the way thru, not just into the tip, as nothing guarantees the bore diameter will be uniform the full length.

I've twice encountered bore's (on new S&W's) that had barrel constrictions at the frame by using the appropriate size pin gage & sliding it down the barrel only to have it stop firmly at the constriction. Partial slugging would not show the smallest diameter of the barrel.

Five groove S&W's require a special tool to measure slugged bullets since no groove/land is opposite the other. Without it you're just approximating.

I find the bore's diameter using a pin gage set. Then I measure the bore & (one) land's diameter with a telescopicing gauge. Subtract the first reading from the second to find the groove's depth, double it & add it back to the bore diameter to find the overall groove diameter.

On modern guns the throats are more a variable than the bores & usually require the most scrutinizing. At a minimum, size for the throats until you know otherwise.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I load for the 460 mag and my fav "full bang" powder is H110. Keep in mind with the mag ball powders is to load no less than 90% case capacity. Mag ball powders can become inconsistent when you have excessive air space between the bullet and powder. My accuracy load is 50 gr of H110 and the Hornady 200 gr FTX. 2260 fps from my 12" XVR

Interesting, gonna have to "absorb" this info, LOL.

Actually , even though the smiths have an odd number of grooves , it's still possible to get a pretty accurate number . It has been done for years so don't let others discourage you . You need that number as a reference point , even though it's not " dead accurate " , it will be close enough for what you want , trust me .
Pushing the lead slug all the way through the barrel tells you a lot of things ? Is there a tight spot where they " roll " stamped the markings on the side of the barrel ? Is there a tight spot where the barrel joins the frame ? That is caused by over torquing the barrel when indexing the front sight to the rear sight . That problem is not uncommon .
IF there is machine marks inside the barrel , you will feel them as you push the slug through the barrel along with any tight spots . I realize this is a lot of info , but to shoot cast successfully it does require some homework on your part . I have revolvers today that I can shoot from " mild to wild " w/o leading the barrel and the accuracy groups are 1/2 the size of what they were before I remedied some of the problems described above .
Is it worth it ? To me it is . I cast my own bullets , size them properly . I don't get too caught up about bullet hardness . Waaayy too much emphasis is placed on bullet hardness . There are " no shortcuts " to shoot cast successfully . Like I mentioned above , Verals little book was a gold mine for me . Good Luck ! Paul

Went to LBTmolds.com and it looks like this may be the ticket to doing things right. I don't shoot just for the "noise", I want my round to hit precisely where I'm aiming. Thanks Paul! And thanks to all others with valuable input! I'll post as things progress.

Just wanted an opinion on how the "land and grooves" were supposed to look. I never could find "Chore boy" locally and had to order some. But I used Hoppe's, acetone and a 50/50 mix of hydrogen peroxide and white vinegar and a copper brush. Should the grooves be as shiny as the lands? The first 3 is before, the last 2 is after.

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I've never slugged a barrel in my life and have been shooting cast bullets in all calibers including a 500 S&W Handi-Rifle shooting gas check bullets at over 2100fps and never have I ever had a leading problem. I won't say I have never experienced occasional leading but it has been sparse and never to the extent I would consider it a problem. The only things my barrels ever have had in them is a nylon bore brush, diesel soaked patches and cast lead bullets and they stay shiny clean.

Titegroup powder and the 500 has been discussed here before. John Ross and I agree 100% on the useage of Titegroup powder in the 500 or any large revolver caliber for that matter. Link below:

Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500

I can't divulge the entire email from H***don's but I did get a reply off the order of "...would we have printed the load data if it were dangerous"? (They also suggested a "double charge"...) In any case I'm moving on to H110. If GC's eliminate leading or the majority of then I'll go with em. I'll get another revolver and experiment with the "scientific aspects".

oooh, don't mix vinager with hydrogen peroxide to clean out lead! It produces lead acetate which is toxic. It won't kill you immediately but it will cause lead poisoning. See lead acetate, how to produce it

If you can't find Chore Boy (I found it at Walgreens)


Don't buy the bargain bin stuff unless you are sure it's not copper coated steel scrubbers. Another place you can search is Lowes, Home Depot, or ACE hardware. Look for Bronze Wool:


Some websites call it "Bronze Steel Wool" but it's really pure bronze. Bronze wool is used on boats because when steel wool is used, it leaves behind fine steel particles which will rust and stain a ship.

Chore Boy is cheaper if you can find it, but bronze wool will work too. This is all you need when scrubbing lead out of a barrel:

I hope you wore gloves! You can absorb lead acetate through your skin.

WT? Now we have chemists in here? LOL Yea I plugged my barrel at the forcing cone and filled it up to let it soak for an hour, then dumped it but yea I got it on my hands. I reckon I better go to doctor? On the bright side I FINALLY FOUND THE CHORE BOY!!!!!!!!! (At ACE hardware ) (if you don't hear back from me send flowers.)

If you washed your hands immediately after getting that stuff on them you should be all right. I don't think it will absorb through your skin quickly. But it is best to use protection when handling chemicals and nitrile gloves are cheap at Harbor Freight. I rather nitrile instead of latex gloves as they are more resistant to chemicals and oils.

I found the Chore boy and cleaned barrel thoroughly, all looks good. But can someone tell me if the grooves are supposed to look "duller" than the lands? They just don't look as finely machined as the lands. (Sorry I'm a perfectionist.)

Let's work on one thing at a time . Get the proper size cast bullets , make sure the cylinder throats are properly sized -- etc .

No offense, but you are "nuts"

The Hydrogen peroxide and ammonia mix is only for severe lead fouling and should left in the barrel for ONLY 2-3 minutes. If you mixed all this stuff and left if for an hour you are lucky if you have any lands or groves left. Even in a stainless barrel.If you did it to a regular steel barrel it would be toast. Even so you may have pitting.

Plus as mentioned getting it on your hands is not wise!!

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Still Running Against the Wind

Actually I only left it in for a few minutes. And yes I had severe lead fouling and yes I have rifling left (Not to mention I had to use the Chore boy to rid the remaining lead). Won't go there again!

I checked rechecked my bullets, cylinder throats, bore etc... All this was ok the whole time. Started using H110 (even without GC's) and performance was a dream. Grouping 5 shots inside a 4 inch ring at 50 yards (one handed and with scope). Inspected bore and it looked as clean as it did before shooting! Loading some up with checks now, same powder, same load to see if I can get better accuracy.