I am using RCBS "Cowboy" dies for reloading the 32-20 Winchester. New brass is Winchester, cast 100gr lead bullets over 3.0gr of Titegroup. The problem comes with using the expander die. I can not get the right expand for seating the bullet. If the case flares out it does not seat in the chamber all the way. The seating die does not crimp the bullet. Without the expander die the case crumbles under the bullet. I have tried re-running the flared cases back thru the sizing die but it does not reform the case and remove the flare. 11 cases later I am frustrated, to say the least. Time to quit and breakout the Jack!? What am I doing wrong? Help.

A separate crimping die might help. Midway USA presently has several listed on-line.

Are you sure the seating die doesn't crimp? Try running a case with seated bullet into the die with the seater stem backed way off. Turn the whole die in until you feel it make contact with the case mouth. Then back off the ram and add one half turn to the die into the press and see if that doesn't solve your issue.

Maybe I could have explained it better, but my point is crimp as a separate step, after seating. With the stem backed off so it doesn't touch the bullet in the case.

Give this item a look.

Lee Factory Crimp Die 32-20 WCF

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I had similar problems when first working with 32-20, it has a very tender case opening. You can virtually eliminate any problems with seating and crimping if you do them in seperate operations. I do not use a progressive machine and although I have been tempted to get one I just don't go through that many rounds to justify it. Also reloading is something I do for relaxation and as a "hobby", its my time and I like to enjoy the entire experience.
With many of the calibers I use I also cast, lube and size the bullets. I purchase Lyman Neck Expander (M) Dies for calibers that I cast for. The expander die opens up the neck just that much deeper to make seating cast or for that matter any bullet that much easier. I use expander dies for all bullets for the calibers that I use, it just makes it slicker and as far as I am concerned is money well spent. I also prefer the bell that the expander die puts on the case. I was having problems with some cases catching the seating die because the flare was too wide in order to get a good smooth seating of the bullet. The expander die just makes that part of the operation that much easier. The part number for the Lyman Expander Die for 32-20 is 7343006.

First, try what cooperduper said. Second, do you have any other die that is close in size? You may be able to make it work as a crimping die.

What he said! The Lee FC die solved all my crimping issues with the 32-20. Also do check and see if Lyman makes their "M" case expander die in 32-20, being a bottleneck case they may not though. I've been meaning to check this out myself. That "M" die works very well in my straight wall cases such as .45 Colt, .44 Special and .38 special and .357 Magnum. It works well with the .45 ACP's slightly tapered case as well.

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I go one step further with a flimsy case such as 32-20 and crimp as a separate operation. I would see if Lee makes a collet crimp die for the 32-20; if not off the shelf they will make a custom one for a fair price.

The RCBS Cowboy dies are a 3 die set and AFAIK work the same as the Lyman 3 die set I use for 32-20.

I set the seating depth a Cooperduper says,,then back the seating stem out and out of the way. Then re-adjust the die itself downward till it lightly crimps the already seated bullet into place.
At that point, with the cartridge held in place all the way up in the die with the ram, now screw the seating stem back down to touch the bullet and lock it there.
This is the standard method of adjusting the die to seat & crimp all in one motion. The crimp will remove the flare placed in the case mouth earlier .

I've never had any problems with 32-20, 38-40, or 44-40 cases crumpling using this normal seating and crimping method . The crimp won't be a strong as it would on say a 38 or 44mag case as the 32-20 case mouths are thin, but that's just the way the cases are made.
As long as the bullets don't push back into the case in a tube feed or move forward under recoil in a revolver.

I'm having difficulty picturing your situation, but if I'm remotely close to understanding, sounds like your problem is a poor adjustment on your seating die.

You can buy a separate crimp die and you can buy a Lee Factory Crimp die, but you need neither to do the job right. Size and flare your brass (easy on the flare) and back your seater stem out. Set your seating die where it does not crimp. Insert a bullet and gradually work the die toward the crimp stage while working the seater stem downward.

As you've seen, .32-20 brass has incredibly thin necks that are easily damaged. Get the bullet where you want it and put a light crimp on it. .32-20 needs less crimp than just about anything else, particularly if you're using light loads.

Don't ever mix brass with this cartridge. Winchester and Remington brass have different overall lengths and crimp dies must be re-adjusted when going from one brass to the other.

This is all more difficult to explain than to do. Good luck-

Sometime that light crimp is a problem in a tube magazine, especially with cast bullets where the bullet lube is smeared down the side of the bullet. Recoil isn't the only issue - my original M92 drove me nuts until I started crimping as a separate operation with a Lee die - I was too lazy to keep fooling with the seating die so just spent the money for the extra die.

Perhaps I didn't explain thoroughly. The degree of crimp is relative and can't really be accurately described by using terms like "light" or "heavy".

What I meant in my post by "light" was just enough crimp to prevent bullet movement under recoil; no more. That's actually the way I crimp everything that needs crimping, including .44 Magnum, so maybe that's really not light...

I'm just glad to hear I'm not the only one having trouble with this caliber.

Of well over a dozen caliber I load, the 32-20 has caused me more trouble than all the others combined.

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Dick Burg

I load both the 44-40, 38-30 and the 32-20. You really, really need the separate crimping die made by Lee and others. Works wonders.

I agree with others that crimping needs to be done as a separate operation. I also suggest crimping only as much as absolutely necessary, and no more.

Also, you will benefit significantly by investing in the Lyman M-die. This is a precision two-step neck expanding die that allows you to form the case neck to provide a tight grip on the bullet while also expanding the mouth to accept the base of your bullet easily. Remove the decapping rod and expander button from your sizing die, resize normally, then expand on the Lyman M-die as a separate operation. This will produce excellent results and save you many cases over time that might otherwise be lost during seating operations.

The .32-20 (and all others of that series) have relatively thin case walls and case necks. They do not stand up well to the strains of seating and crimping, as we might apply with other calibers.

I've loaded the cartridge for a couple of rifles over the last 30+ years using cast bullets only and haven't found a need for a separate crimp die. All has worked fine and the loads shoot accurately.

Please explain.

Delta419,
I reload the same 32-20 as you are doing for my 1884 Winchester Level action Rifle.
I use RCBS dies and press for all my reloading. The brass is thin walled, but if you lube the cases and use the expander die, after priming the case, and play with the adjustment screw to get just a slight flare at the opening, the seating die will accept the case and bullet.
You may have to try several times to get just the right flare and fit, but once set, lock the retainer ring into place and then all you need to do is periodically check the opening as you go.
I'm including some pictures which may help to see the flare I'm speaking of. Lubing is a key step though and needs to be done.
The casings on the left are the flared cases in all pictures
Hope this helps you.

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This is how I've always done it, but you've described much better than I ever could. I've yet to find much need for a separate crimping die.

The RCBS Cowboy die are an expensive die set! If you have any problems with them CALL CUSTOMER SERVICE! They will walk you through any problems. I own a mid 1980's set of regular RCBS 32-20 dies and have loaded around 10,000 rounds on them with out problem. But have had brand new dies that were out of spec. They will make it right! I have about 8 of the LEE FCD's and never needed the 32-20 one. I don't think you need to spend more money.

I think you'll find that the 32-20 is a great round once you have the kinks worked out. I also load the 218 Bee for a RUGER #1 and it is also fantastic.

Ivan

I posted the number for the Lyman Neck Expand (M) Die, I can't remember why I was given the number 7343006 but it does work very well. The label on the outside of the box reads "31 Short". The die has written "LYMAN NECK EXPAND M-1 H11" The end of the sizer that fits down into the cartridge reads "31R".
I've had great luck with it and as mentioned above use seperate stages for expanding, seating and crimping. I find 32-20 a little fussy at first but once you get the rhythm down and take your time its a piece a cake, you don't to get sloppy at all. I found most of my problems were trying to rush things along on the depriming sequence and not getting the cartridge firmly upright and center when smashing the ram down, crumpling a few right at the mouth.

I really appreciate all the feedback, it has been very helpful. Its been over 13 years since I reloaded for 32-20 (used an 1873 and a 1892 Winchester in CAS) and I have a pile of old brass and thought I would try my hand at shooting reloads in them and some of my Smiths. I just ran a batch of 100 off and have gotten the feel of doing the 32-20 again. Even recovered some of the brass from my mistakes. One thing I did do right was to go down to my LGS and get a 32-20 LEE crimping die, as suggested. Lucky they had one! It tended to correct some of the expander die mistakes and I like the way it crimps. I use a Lee single stage press (since 1988) and a RCBS electronic scale and weigh every load. Thanks guys for sharing.

I use a regular set of RCBS dies for loading my 32-20 and sometimes have the problem I think you are describing.
As others have said, the thin case walls are very susceptible to damage and buckling while reloading. This makes bullet seating and crimping a very touchy operation.
What I see most happening is that the crimp is engaging before the bullet is fully seated. This causes as slight bulging of the case neck, which prevents the case from fully chambering in my S&W revolvers. I might add that I usually don't have a problem chambering chambering these rounds in my 44 Stevens rifle, probably due to a slight difference in chamber dimensions.
When bullet seating/crimping, I always chamber test each round, using the cylinder from one of my Smiths. Kinda like the plunk test done when reloading semi auto ammo. Any rounds that don't seat fully are set aside to be run through the sizing die again, after removing the primer decapping rod.

The main culprit here is overall case length. I've seen quite a bit of variability in case length of 32-20 brass between different manufacturers, especially in new unfired brass. And much of the older brass I've picked up at various places is usually of mixed manufacture.

This requires you to trim all your cases to the same length before reloading. Otherwise you will have fits while seating and crimping bullets. Either the crimp won't engage on a shorter case which may also result in the flared mouth not being reduced, or it will engage too soon on longer cases, before the bullet is fully seated, causing the neck to bulge. And it doesn't take much to bulge the neck of a 32-20.

John

For years I have used a Lee .32-20 die set, never did anything out of the ordinary, never had any case problems. I usually do not crimp at all, but then I don't have any .32-20 rifles with tubular magazines, so bullet movement is not an issue.

The separate crimping die allows for variances in different case lengths that the bullet seating die cannot. if you trim your brass to the same length and only shoot it in one firearm every time you probably do not need a separate crimping die. But start shooting it in different guns and the brass is going to end up slightly different lengths. So if you adjust the bullet seating die for one case that is slightly short and the next one is long; the long one will crumble.

One question I have concerning crimping? I crimp as tight as possible, does a tight crimp impact on increased pressure for the 32-20 round. Never thought about it before and relied on skin tension for shooting in old revolvers, but some of my reloads will go thru antique Winchesters. Of course I use LRNFP bullets with starting loads keeping it at 14000cup or lower at 850ft vel or lower.

Applying heavy crimp pressures to the .32-20 (or .25-20, .218 Bee, or others of that period) just invites case shoulder collapse.

Enough is enough. Any more easily be too much.

Why not trim the cases the same length ?