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Old 03-06-2017, 02:39 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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Default LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant

Last week, I made up some .270 Win handloads for a friend, and also offered to take out his rifle (a Rem 700 BDL) to sight in a new scope. It occurred to me that this might be a good opportunity to do a simple experiment to see if there was any real difference in ballistic performance with the .270 using a slow powder and different primers. My loads were all made up in R-P cases, trimmed to uniform length, using 58.0 grains of Norma 205 powder (which I think has been replaced by Norma MRP), and is one of the slowest powders around, even slower than 4350 and 4831) which filled the cases to the base of the neck, and generic bulk 130 grain .277" bullets. I used both CCI LR Magnum and also Federal Bench Rest LR primers. In summary, it seems there is very little.

I went to the range last Friday and here are the actual results:

Federal LR BR primers - avg. MV (7 rounds) = 2961 ft/sec, SD = 61 ft/sec, and group ES (7 shots) = 45mm (about 1.75" @100 yards, fired from bench rest).

CCI LR Magnum primers - avg. MV (7 rounds) = 2920 ft/sec, SD = 18 ft/sec, and group ES (7 shots) = 52mm (about 2" @100 yards, fired from bench rest).

Group centers of each load were in almost exactly the same location on the target, about 1/2" directly above the point of aim.

I did a simple statistical test on the MVs for each load (for those familiar with statistics, it's the Student's T-Test), which indicated there is no statistically-significant difference between the average MVs of the two loads. Single seven-round shot series for each load is really not enough to have a high degree of confidence in the result, but nevertheless is adequate to strongly suggest that the primers used made negligible difference in performance (MV, point of impact, and grouping). If anything, the Bench Rest primers produced a little better performance vs. Magnum primers.

Has anyone else tried a similar test on primers used with any other slow propellants?

Last edited by DWalt; 03-06-2017 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:47 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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Thanks for the info and review. I only use standard primers (cci or Win) but I also would not thing there is much difference in "match" primers. They are supposedly "hand picked or processes)

If you get a chance to do a similar test stay withing the same brand like all CCI or all Federal, JMO but I think that would be more relevant,
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:53 PM
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When working up a rifle load I will take what primers I have at the time. Once I get the load dialed in, I will swap 3-4 diff brands &/or a mag & match primer. Sometimes it makes a diff, most the time no. The match primer isn't always the most accurate. I generally don't look to a mag primer until my powder charge gets over 60gr or if using a slow ball powder. So in 270 size rounds, they get std primers. I use a mag primer in my magnum rounds where charges are well over 60gr of anything.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:19 PM
Jerry M Jerry M is offline
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I have a 7mm Remington Magnum that I loaded with AA3100. I tested CCI BR2 and Magnum primers both shot the same point of aim at 600 yards.

Good luck

Jerry
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:45 AM
Frank46 Frank46 is offline
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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I've been using the CCI magnum primers with IMR 4350 in at least 4 pre '64 model 70's two of which were match rifles, and one Sako 75 Hunter also in 30-06 and with 54.5 to 55.5 grains of IMR 4350 shoot excellent groups. In fact when I sold off the model 70's which the two match rifles had been refitted with Douglas barrels I gave the load info out with each rifle. All who bought those rifles swore that they never had a '06 shoot that well. The Sako 75 loves that load and strangely shoots it very well and also the old M72 match loading that no change to the scope is/was needed. In actuality I have found it was easier to get a decent '06 grouping rather easy,wish I could say the same for the two 308 heavy barreled rifles one Rem Sendero and a Savage 110FP in the same caliber. Never tried the bench rest primers in the 30-06 or any other caliber. Frank
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:28 AM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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I use CCI BR-2 primers in most of my 25-06 and 30-06 loading. 243 also. Seem to give me very consistent loads. I use 'em in 22-250 but only because I have theme . Standard and BR primers shoot identically in the Kimber Varmint rifle I shoot. I use Federal 215 mag match in the 300 Win Mag Kimber. Need some more of them as I am down to a couple hundred... and they are almost unobtanium around here.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:41 PM
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I have a finicky early M77 Ruger that is custom stock & bbl in 338-06. It will shoot nice clover leaf around 1/2moa with CCI BR primers. With others the group opens to just under 1". Still good enough for hunting.
My custom hvy barreled M700 in 260ai shoots just about everything well. When I take my best load & swap primers, not much change but it is measurable in groups size. Oddly, it prefers RP std primers in most loads, more so than Fed or cci match. Just an oddity proving all bbls are diff.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:46 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
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It's worth trying different primers with various loads. Results could be quite different with all the variables involved that include such things as case capacity and powder, to only name two factors.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:43 AM
AveragEd AveragEd is offline
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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I use CCI Benchrest primers in most of my rifle handloads but did find that switching to Federal 215M primers - a magnum-level match primer - in my 6.5-284 Norma did lower the velocity variation and tighten the groups a little. Actual muzzle velocity wasn't affected.



I'm using the discontinued IMR4007SSC powder under 120-grain Berger match bullets in that rifle, a combination that would not require magnum primers but they do make a difference.

Ed
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:05 PM
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JMO, blindly using match primers does NOT guarantee better accuracy. Why I always try 2-3 diff brands & throw in a mag primer too. Sometimes it matters a little, sometimes not at all. Sometimes a mag primer helps, sometimes it hurts accuracy.
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:22 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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I have been handloading 49 years, I have never seen a nickels worth of difference in brand or so called bench rest primers as far as accuracy goes. it dose make a difference when you are lighting ball powders to use the magnum.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:37 AM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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For the most part, match primers are no different than regular primers other than the manufacturer generally uses his most experienced operators to assemble them. The idea is, that the more experienced operators will tend to produce more consistent primers. You can use your own judgement on that. Even if the primers are more consistent, just having the name "match" on the box, does not mean they are guaranteed to produce "match" quality ammo.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:09 AM
AveragEd AveragEd is offline
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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As an update to my first post to this thread (#9 above), our weather finally resulted in a nice day and I was able to test-fire six recipes with Federal #215M magnum match primers in my .280 Ackley Improved yesterday. My load for that rifle has been 62.5 grains of RE-22 with a CCI BR-2 primer under a 140-grain Berger VLD.

Switching to the hotter primer actually resulted in very sticky case extraction with two powders, including RE-22, and so much brass rubbed off one case that the ejector plunger could not extend from the bolt face until I cleaned it of that brass. I only fired one round of those two recipes and none of the rest exhibited groups better than .809"; the former load could be counted upon for groups about half that size (.482").

Where the hotter primers didn't result in a change in muzzle velocity worth noting in the 6.5-284 with IMR4007SSC powder, yesterday's chronograph readings showed higher muzzle velocity readings with 215M primers and the powders I had records of trying before. The RE-22 load clocked an average of 3,099fps with BR-2 primers and 3,154fps with 215Ms. You wouldn't think that the increase in pressure that is enough to increase MV by 55fps would matter a whole lot but in this case, it sure did!

For what it's worth...

Ed
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:00 AM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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Well you have to remember the BR-2 is not a mag primer..justa match LR. The 215 is supposedly the hottest mag primer...developed for the Weatherby cases. The 280 AI is also not a real mag loading either...not a long powder column case. And that load is right at the cusp of enough powder. If that case blocked the ejector hole your pressures were a bit high to say the least. I would even go so ar as to say the load with the BR-2 may have a little bit of high pressure too. Just not as extreme. We who play with the AI cases sure do love our velocities
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:16 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
We who play with the AI cases sure do love our velocities
Tell me about it! I have a varmint rifle with a 27" heavy barrel in .243AI that sends 65-grain Bergers downrange at 3,939fps. That's .220 Swift territory with much lighter bullets.

But velocity wasn't my goal with the .280AI - I just wanted an accurate and somewhat unique near-7mm magnum without the recoil of one. The same company that made my .243AI barrel, McGowen's, made this one but it's a 25" sporter. The receiver is factory-engraved and has a factory DBM.





Although it was made in 2010, I didn't take it deer hunting until opening day in 2015. It done good at 105 yards and that eight-point didn't go very far.



I have a stainless steel Model 700 single-shot receiver I would like to use for a custom build but can't decide on a cartridge. It has a standard (.308-size) boltface.

Ed
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:36 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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Not one that everybody would want..but how about a 250 Savage AI..gives ya 257 Robts vels and works real well on varmints up to larger deer. As Ackley said it is the best of his AI calibers with the most gain over the regular case..course we would push them to a bit higher pressures.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:47 PM
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I shoot a std 280, found rl22 to have too much variation from lot to lot. I swirched to imr7828ssc. I get slightly higher vel w/o the odd pressure soike & better accuracy. All with a std primer.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:56 PM
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LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant LR Magnum vs. LR Match Primers with a slow propellant  
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250 Sav AI - I run my 87 grainers at around 3400 to 3500. I have one load with VV 150 that is right at 3500, but a better accuracy load with H 4350 is really close to 3400. Great case and I love playing around with it for long range.
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