I would like to replicate the 44 Special "factory load" of about 750-775fps with HP38 of about 5.3gr under some 245 lrnfp bullets. In a Magnum case.

With such a small charge in the large case, I am wondering if it would be wise to wad or stuff the case in front of the charge?

I have only read about cowboy action shooters doing this with tissue to keep the charges square in the cases and to get better consistency.

Would this be necessary for my application and is there any advice to go about doing this?

Thanks

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Pew pew in my shoe

You are probably exactly right on your HP38 load. I always load my magnum cases with max 44 Special + a bit and they are wonderful shooters. If you have a chrono I think you'll find yourself around 5.6-5.8 in the end. The Magnum load starts around 8 grains so you have lots of wiggle room.

Stu

Elmer Keiths " gallery " load was 5.0 grs of Bullseye powder , no filler with his 245 gr swc . So your load sounds about right .

Not a lot of difference in the length of the cases, I find most of the powder I use to duplicate 44 special loads are fluffier and don't really need a filler. I guess it wouldn't hurt , but the difference in fillers could change pressure levels. I would start low and work up. I've never had a problem with 38 special charges in .357 cases without fillers, I would think 44 spl./44 mag would be similar.

Can you, yes, must you, no.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

You don't need a filler. With rare exception, if you "need" a filler, you "need" a suitable powder.

I've used 6.5 grs. with Lyman #429421 SWC (about 250 grs.). Muzzle velocity from a 6" Model 29 was 840 fps, so I think you're pretty close estimating the velocity of your load.

I have played around some with fillers and loads very similar to what you want.
The most (and really only) successful one was Grex shotgun buffer which is no longer sold.
It was ground up polycarbonate.
One could use BPI buffer instead.
BPI Original Design Buffer (500cc)-Ballistic Products
Or Pufflon which is very messy and has moly in it. It is fine as dust.
PuffLon
My load, which I am still shooting up as I made several hundred, is 4.5 grains PB and 11-12 grains of Grex with a 240 SWC in a 44 special case.
This gives me velocity in the high 600's to low 700's depending on the gun and is very accurate.
This was the result of experiments I did to see how slow I could go and still be accurate without sticking a bullet in a barrel.
When using a filler you want the filler to be somewhat compressed so it holds the powder down and they don't mix.
Filler and wads always increase pressure somewhat.
I have used old tumbling media (the walnut shells will polish your bore!) and even TP.
Don't shoot TP at an indoor range.
It leaves an unholy mess of shredded paper on the floor.
Don't ask how I know this.

Double rifle folks often use a filler in those giant cases that were, in many instances, designed for black or cordite.
Kynoch uses foam wads in all their Nitro-For-Black loads and you can buy those wads if you look around.
Trader Keith
These are very similar to foam earplugs.

What you DON'T want to do is use a solid wad over the powder with air space between it and the bullet.
This is reputed to have caused ringed chambers in several instances including expensive double rifles.
I have a couple 444 cases that have bright rings near where the bottom of the bullet was, possibly from doing this.
Some folks sell plastic disks as wads. Some folks make their own.
These need to be under the bullet not over the powder.

I have given up on wads and fillers for the most part as they are not worth the trouble.
Moving to slightly slower and bulkier powders and staying in the mid 700's to mid 800's velocity gives just as good results without the mess.
I am using CSB-1 and Universal for these kind of loads currently.
It is very easy to move up into the 900's safely with these "mid-range" powders too.

Attached Images

Packin_A_Wad800.jpg (264.3 KB, 34 views)

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NEMO
"Everything 44"

I've used polyester fiberfill in my cat sneeze .38 special loads for probably 30+ years. The load uses PB, a notoriously position sensitive powder. Just a wisp of fiberfill is all that is necessary and it holds the powder in place. Loads without the filler group twice as large at 25 yards.

There is only a 1/8" difference in case lengths so there is no reason to use a filler. Same holds for the 38/357. You should be fine with the load you are going to use although looking at the .44 Magnum data on the Hodgdon site you might want to bump the charge up to 5.5/5.6gr.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I've loaded a bunch of 240 grain SWC bullets with 6.8 grains HP38 in 44 Mag cases and that load is light and sweet in my 629 Classic. IIRC muzzle velocity was around 825-850 fps. And 7.1 grains of Unique out of the same gun is also a nice, sweet round and a muzzle velocity of 860 fps. I used no filler in either of those.

Hodgdon dats is about in line with the load i'm wanting to try. Except they are using a 7 or 8" test barrel. Speer #10 shows a starting load of 5.2 at 720fps out of a 4" barrel. Mine will be in a 5.5" barrel, so 5.3-5.4 seems like a good place to start.

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Pew pew in my shoe

I have tried different loads for many years. I never wanted to bother with fillers so I ruled that out immediately. Three things. First, as has been said elsewhere, I have never been satisfied with accuracy and consistency in .44 Magnum target loads with anything less than 800 FPS, and 900-1000 seems a whole lot better. Without fillers, I would stay at 8 grs. of 231/HP38 or even a bit more. Second, FWIW, I like Federal 150 primers in all .44 Magnum loads, with all powders. They seem to work the best for me in the .44. Finally, with cast bullets I have found using the largest possible diameter helps many problems with light .44 loads in older S&Ws.

If you are not terribly picky about consistency (i.e., keep your loads away from the chronograph! ) you can go lighter than 8-grs but don't expect much in terms of accuracy beyond 30-40 yards or so. JMHO.

For year my standard .44 Mag load for both carbine and revolver for CAS was 6 grains of Bullseye or AA#2. Never saw any need for a filler, they shot just fine without any. As I remember revolver MV was around 800 ft/sec with 240 grain SWC bullets.

I've shot numerous light loads(800fps)in .44Mag brass with quick burning powders;700X,Bullseye,Red Dot and Promo.6gr at a time with regular force primer.very accurate and never had a misfire or a squib.No filler needed;these powders ignite quite easily.
While I like to use fillers in large rifle cal(45-70),I don't like the fuss associated with it.
Qc

Trail Boss powder will fill more of the .44mag case than any other powder for nice cowboy loads

Start 6.0gr = 828fps = 19,100psi

Max 7.3gr = 917fps = 21,600psi

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Not the best advice.


A chronograph is your friend. Test your loads with the bbl positioned down then brought up to shoot. The bbl up and brought down to shoot. Huge swings in the es is a clear sign of the need for a filler.

hp-38 is not know for it's ability to perform well with low pressure loads like the 1 your using (5.3gr). Powders like american select, clays, titegroup tend to do better along with powders like trail boss that are designed for low pressure high case volume loads.

What does my advice to use .1 or .2 grains of powder in a .44 Magnum case over the shorter .44 Special case have to do with the wadcutter chart you posted with the words "not good advice" aimed at me?

My recommendation was the starting charge in the .44 Magnum case, not a low pressure load. The part about the case being 1/8" LONGER, not shorter, was in reference to needing a filler or not.

I use W231 in soft shooting 45 Colt loads all the time and it performs just fine and that's also a high volume case.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Double Post...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I had excellent results with a load of 5 grs Vectan BA 10, which is comparable to Bullseye and a 245gr LSWC beveld base bullet. No problem with inconsistency due to the length of a Magnum case.

20 rounds, shot at 25 meters, flyers are shooter's fault

regards from Germany
Ulrich


[IMG][/IMG]

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Life is too short to own a bad gun

Or change of powder! But, yes, the powder position sensitivity thing is very real. Whether it matters for your type of shooting is another question.

For consistency, I've gone to ludicrously slow powders (mostly IMR4198, also RE7) that fill the case to the base of the .44 Speer swaged lead bullets in magnum cases. Velocities right at 1000fps, which is warmer than you want, but it shoots well out to 200m.

Used to shoot loads of ~6.5gr WW231/HP38 in the .44 mag but not only had wide velocity spreads, it would leave lead deposits about the forcing cone area. Soft bullets or hard, didn't matter. And not a big deal unless you are shooting hundreds of rounds between cleanings.

However, if you aren't shooting LARGE amounts of ammo past 25 or 50 yards, the lighter loads may do you fine. BTW, I didn't find various fillers of much help with WW231/HP38, regardless of charge weight.

I use Hogdon titegroup all the time. 4.7 grains in a regular mag case. magnum primers 240 jhp . shooting out of a 6 inch 629 (it is my carry gun btw) and I load the same powder at 9 grains for magnum loads. I have NEVER had a problem. I can shoot the low special loads all day. I don't bother trying to find .44 special cases just load regular .44 mag works fine and No you do not need any kind of filler. the ONLY problem if you can call it that I have had is that I think it is kind of a dirty powder.

In my opinion And it's just that, another opinion. Saying 1/8" difference is no big deal is not sound advice. It doesn't matter if it's with large cases like 44cal's or small cases like 9mm's or 38spl/357's (that you brought up, hence the 38spl picture). A 1/8" difference in case lengths or bullet lengths/seating depths can have huge swings in pressure. To me it's a good thing to be mindful case volume.

Going too low with powder charges can be just as bad as over charges. Things like kabooms for small amounts of powder in large cases that burn all at once start to come into play. High energy powders like titegroup have been known to have problems with kabooms with extremely small amounts of powders in cases with large case capacity.

I'm not promoting 1 powder over another or trying to tell people to use a different powder. Myself I tend to use these powders for low pressure/low volume loads.


Compared to hp-38 these powders take up a lot more space for the same load.

Clays takes up 50% more volume for the same load compared to hp-38.
AM-select takes up 38% more volume for the same load compared to hp-38.
Trail boss takes up 125% more volume for the same load compared to hp-38.

It doesn't take much difference in case volume to make huge differences in accuracy/consistency.

Your 1st clue is when your load is extremely dirty.

For me , in the " low pressure " rounds ( 38spl , 44spl , 45acp) I really like WST . I'm just not a fan of W231 / HP-38 . For me it's one of those " in between " powders . For years I used Red Dot and liked the " bulkiness " of it . Just started trying out some IMR 700X in 44 spl . Looks good so far . After the fast burning powders , I go to WSF for the bulk of my reloading . Those 2 powders , WST , WSF both burn very clean and are extremely accurate , in my guns .

I load 44 mag target loads with 5.3 grains of Hodgdon Clays and Missouri Bullets Cowboy #5 200 grain LRNFP. I've had zero problems of any kind. It's a clean, accurate, soft shooting load. I've never chronographed this load but it should be around 900 fps and 14,000 psi. No fuss no muss no fillers no problems....

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