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Old 03-16-2017, 12:25 PM
Service Rifleman1 Service Rifleman1 is offline
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Default FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads

Hello there. I have some Hornady 158 LSWCHP and also some Magtech 158 LSWC slugs and I would like to load up some accurate 38 special +P loads for my M64-5 Smith 4". I just got some TiteGroup powder along with my supplies of Unique and Bullseye. Please let me know any published loads from yore that would be suitable. Thank you. I have been shooting some loads with Unique 5.0 I believe and some Bullseye loads but I read an article awhile back by Brian Pearce and he was loading for a Smith and Wesson Pro 357 Magnum and used TiteGroup powder. Standard load data on the Can says 3.8 grains for standard pressure loads with 158 LSWC. Thank you.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:05 PM
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I load 5.0gr of Unique under the Hornady 158gr LSWC with 1.45 AOL

I shoot these out of a 2.5" 686-4
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Old 03-16-2017, 02:14 PM
Service Rifleman1 Service Rifleman1 is offline
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Hello there. Yes thank you, I have used that load as well. I will dig up my copy of the Handloader where Brian Pearce uses TiteGroup in his loads with the Hornday LSWCHP.
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Old 03-16-2017, 02:58 PM
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Take that Unique load of yours and put a heavy crimp on that lead bullet.
Most shooters with a J frame will say it is enough.

With a K frame you can go a little higher.
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Old 03-16-2017, 04:57 PM
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Yes I use a heavy crimp with a Lee crimping die. Excited to use some of the loads as I have some new slugs to try out. Shooting at about 20 yards with slow fire targets. Model 64-5 K frame the loads shoot well and are quite easy to shoot.
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:06 PM
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Years back I did some extensive work on replicating the FBI Load and I feel I was successful. Velocity alone is not the key, the felt recoil and of course accuracy is important too.

The powder charge I used is above current published limits but I and others have found a lot of data saying my charge is below the current SAAMI limits of 20,000 PSI. Use this data at your own risk.

Here's the load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:12 PM
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Up at the top of the forum. Notable Threads

There are better choices than TiteBoom

FBI load

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Up at the top of the forum. Notable Threads

There are better choices than TiteBoom

FBI load

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
Man, we all had a great time developing that data back in 2009. Too bad Mike hasn't been around for a long time and Jim passed away. Still, good to see that thread, thanks...
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Nevada Ed wrote:
Most shooters with a J frame will say it is enough.
Amen.

I shoot 158 grain jacketed bullets from the J-frame I inherited from my grandmother and five rounds per range session is quite enough for me.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:19 PM
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Have used ArchAngelCD's HS-6 load, and it's a good one. In addition, I played around with AA#5 and came up with a 6.4gr load that pretty much does the same thing.

Don
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:18 PM
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6gr Alliant Power Pistol will get you right around 1000fps in a 4" tube
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:43 AM
Service Rifleman1 Service Rifleman1 is offline
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Anyone used the LSWC loads from Federal 38G +P loads or Winchester or Remington. I have read alot about the Buffalo Bore loads and have will continue to read up on some of the threads mentioned. Thank you.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:12 PM
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Hello there. Thank you for the load data. I will have to pick up some of that powder HS-6 and try work up some loads with your data. I seen a pound of old 2400 in a shop that interested me to try some of the old 38/44 loads with 2400. Lots of choices to cook up some good 38 Special loads. Thank you all again.

Mike

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Old 03-18-2017, 12:18 PM
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5.5 gr. Unique, .357 brass, standard primers, 4" barrel 586= 860 fps chrono'ed. I used that with 150-158 gr. LSWCs in IPSC matches for years. Nice to shoot!
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Service Rifleman1 View Post
Anyone used the LSWC loads from Federal 38G +P loads or Winchester or Remington. I have read alot about the Buffalo Bore loads and have will continue to read up on some of the threads mentioned. Thank you.
I have all three and I think the Winchester is most accurate but the Remington will expand best. The Federal load is not bad either but the bullet is harder than the one used in the Remington ammo.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:11 AM
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It's always interesting to read these types of threads where someone wants to know about those chicago, fbi, treasury, keith, buffalo bore loads that skeeter worked on.

Myself, I like to pick 1 load. Here's what a fbi armorer has to say about the "fbi" load.

The FBI 158-grain lead HP +P .38 Special load is still available under the Remington symbol R38S12 or Winchester X38SPD. The equivalent Federal 38G has been discontinued. Alloy was 2% antimonial lead, which when fully cold worked and recrystallized is about 8 BHN. A cast HP of shape similar to #358429 with cavity 0.6 of the meplat diameter, with 15 degree included angle draft on the core pin, cast of 1:40 tin/lead has very similar upset characteristics but is a bit heavier at 162-164 grs. Velocity of the X38SPD with which I am most familiar was 855+/- 30 fps from the 4" SAAMI "vented" test barrel, which simulates revolver ballistics with a 0.008" cylinder gap.

This velocity is approximated with 158-162-grain cast LHPs using canister powders with either 4.2 grains of Bullseye, 4.8 grs. of W231, 5.2 grs. of Unique or 5.5 grs. of PB, at a minimum cartridge OAL of1.50". All are +P loads!
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:50 PM
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Yes it seems that the lead SWC and HP's were the ones the people who carried the 38's depended on the loads for their lives and their families. The "Treasury" ++P+ loads with the 110-125 JHP's were another one of the loads as opposed to the 158 RN of antiquity which sadly was not very dependable to stop a determined adversary. Thank you.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:04 AM
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I know its not a powder that you asked about, but I use 12.0 grns of IMR 4227. It is VERY accurate out of my 686, and has a very tiny orange flash in low light. I'm getting about 900ish fps (my data isn't here or I would post exact numbers)

The only issue is that load is above the 38 +p data I have, but under the minimum load for 357. So take that how you will.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:14 AM
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I used Speer's SWCHP, not Hornady's so i can't attest for them, using 5.4 grains Unique Fiocci cases and Winchester SPP. Ended up with a 5 shot

889fps, 855, 927, 906, 924
900 fps average standard deviation 26.4! 284 ft. lbs.

I put time into each round, but still couldn't get consistent velocity, but it was fine pressure wise, and worked well enough. Bullets seem pretty hard for swage, as other shave said here and other forums, lead hardness for SWCHP changes from make to make. Still, for the low power of my load, the .55 average caliber mushrooms and 16 inch penetration is actually competitive in today's world.

Keep in mind BB's FBI load is not only hotter, but uses what they claim to be pure lead, ultra soft bullets. I might have to buy some Hornady's and try them in a test.

Planning on doing a hot load 357 Magnum test with these same SWCHP tomorrow, be interesting to see those results.
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
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Handload 38 Speical Speer FBI Load Clear Ballistics Test - YouTube

I used Speer's SWCHP, not Hornady's so i can't attest for them, using 5.4 grains Unique Fiocci cases and Winchester SPP. Ended up with a 5 shot

889fps, 855, 927, 906, 924
900 fps average standard deviation 26.4! 284 ft. lbs.

I put time into each round, but still couldn't get consistent velocity, but it was fine pressure wise, and worked well enough. Bullets seem pretty hard for swage, as other shave said here and other forums, lead hardness for SWCHP changes from make to make. Still, for the low power of my load, the .55 average caliber mushrooms and 16 inch penetration is actually competitive in today's world.

Keep in mind BB's FBI load is not only hotter, but uses what they claim to be pure lead, ultra soft bullets. I might have to buy some Hornady's and try them in a test.

Planning on doing a hot load 357 Magnum test with these same SWCHP tomorrow, be interesting to see those results.
Welcome to the wonderful world of unique. Unique is very unique when it comes to consistent velocities or lack there of. If you were using standard loads instead of p+ loads you'd be getting 100fps es's for 10-shot groups.
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
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Keep in mind BB's FBI load is not only hotter, but uses what they claim to be pure lead, ultra soft bullets. I might have to buy some Hornady's and try them in a test.
These are the bullets he's using.
g/ch .38/.357 158 gr. SWC-HP per 100/ in a plastic ammo box
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Old 03-24-2017, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
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Welcome to the wonderful world of unique. Unique is very unique when it comes to consistent velocities or lack there of. If you were using standard loads instead of p+ loads you'd be getting 100fps es's for 10-shot groups.
Groo here
Many people are worried about SD in the rifle world.
In the handgun world , at SD ranges , SD means little.
Let the target tell you what works, not the crono.
As long as the impact speed is close to 800/1000 fps [with SOFT bullets]
they will deform.
If you need to weight a charge instead of bulk dropping it[dipper etc]
Your too close to the edge,or using the wrong powder...
" quote ,J.D. Jones of SSK"
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
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Groo here
Many people are worried about SD in the rifle world.
In the handgun world , at SD ranges , SD means little.
Let the target tell you what works, not the crono.
As long as the impact speed is close to 800/1000 fps [with SOFT bullets]
they will deform.
If you need to weight a charge instead of bulk dropping it[dipper etc]
Your too close to the edge,or using the wrong powder...
" quote ,J.D. Jones of SSK"
It has nothing to do with sd in my little world. But it has everything to do with how a hp performs. If you think a load that is 800fps to 1000fps is acceptable for consistent hp bullet performance, you might want to re-think the 800 to 1000 thing.
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:12 AM
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Default For accuracy...

Bulleye and Titegroup are known to be great for 'mild target loads' but both of them can be loaded to higher velocity than most people think. Being faster target powders they could be more accurate than Unique. Wouldn't hurt to try. Just be careful with heavy loads with them because a little too much can go a long way to raising pressure. I'd weigh all the charges.

Lyman sez that 3.3 grains of Titegroup gets slightly better velocity than Unique with 158 gr lead bullets.
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:17 AM
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Rifleman, I tried to return your PM, but your inbox was full. So here is my reply:

I have found that 4227 doesn't really like small/slow charges very much. I've noticed if the pressure goes too low with 4227 you can get a lot of unburnt powder. So I put my "FBI load" in a 38 special case to reduce volume, and I used a magnum primer. I get a few unburnt kernels of powder, but not that many. I've been very happy with the powder.
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Old 03-25-2017, 02:43 AM
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Default I don't get this part....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groo01 View Post
....
If you need to weight a charge instead of bulk dropping it[dipper etc]
Your too close to the edge,or using the wrong powder...
" quote ,J.D. Jones of SSK"
This part I don't quite agree with. While I think it better to use a powder that doesn't require max loads to get desired velocity, I have no problem with weighing charges around or at max. I can measure well within a tenth of a grain with my scale. And I KNOW what the charge is. I'm also happy to use a scoop when at about 3/4 load or less. Or my powder measure.
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Old 03-25-2017, 03:20 AM
Service Rifleman1 Service Rifleman1 is offline
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Hello there. Finally cleaned out the mailboxes. Thank you for the replies. I just use my RCBS powder dribbler and with the small charges weighing the loads is a snappy process that goes smoothly. Loaded up a few loads with a few powders tonight to see how the rounds shoot and how the points of impact will change with the fixed sights. I found some Winchester JHP's 110gr and the 145 Silvertip HP's and Hornady XTP 125's and 158's. I will try a few loads out and see how they compare to the Magtech 158 SWC's and the Hornady LSWCHP 158's that I have been shooting. Regards.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:56 PM
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Since were on the subject of the FBI Load and reloading it, I figure I would add my .2
The Remington 38 Special +P 158 Gr LHP load # R38S12 which by the is what I CCW in my S&W Model (64-4) (2 inch). Contains 5.5 grains of a medium Gray powder, the OAL is 1.468. The bullets are .699 in length.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:39 PM
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Hello there. I have been doing some load developments and having some success and some suprises. Shooting my supplies of Hornady 158 LSCWHP bullets along with the jacketed varieties. The various Winchester JHP 110's and Hornady XTP 125's shoot really well and have different feel and recoil that the 158 grain lead slugs. I like the heavy loads but I have had a couple heavy recoiling rounds with hard to extract cases and one case failure so I have cleaned my brass and found a couple rings of telltale pending case failures waiting to happen so I culled those from the loading bench. Have found a few jems in the loading logs and a few bordering on Magnum pressures. Gonna stick to regular to +P loads and leave the ++P+ to the better left alone category. Thank you for the replies. Safe shooting. Cheers.
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Old 04-04-2017, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
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Since were on the subject of the FBI Load and reloading it, I figure I would add my .2
The Remington 38 Special +P 158 Gr LHP load # R38S12 which by the is what I CCW in my S&W Model (64-4) (2 inch). Contains 5.5 grains of a medium Gray powder, the OAL is 1.468. The bullets are .699 in length.
The powder you describe is only valid for that lot # of ammo. The powder in the next lot might look totally different and of a different weight. I have not disassembled any if this ammo but I have looked at Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P ammo. All three lots where I pulled bullets had different powders and weights. One even used a ball powder while the other 2 used flake powders. All powders weights were different for each lot but the same within the lot.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:56 PM
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FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads FBI Chicago 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP loads  
Join Date: Dec 2016
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I am amazed at the versatility of the 38 Special and how you can have light charges of fast powders like Bullseye and hit targets with or you can pummel your hand with heavy loads that the recoil and report is much different in feel and blast. Have experimented with a few different grips as well to feel out the revolver and change up the looks and ways that it handles and shoots. Anyone know if there were 5" or longer barrels made for the 64-5 Smith? It has the heavy 4" it was made with currently screwed in. Thank you.
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